WUSTL vs. USC rankings Forum

[RayFinkle]

I have heard multiple times on this forum that Wash U is going to surpass USC in the rankings. Does anyone have any actual information explaining this or would care to venture a guess? Also, if it is true, is it likely to happen with this years rankings or sometime in the next few?

Thanks for any info.

[whitman]

False.

[Blindmelon]

No way. WUSTL is over-ranked as is.

[Emboss]

Wustl's combined reputation score is higher than USC's.
Wustl academic: 3.6
USC academic: 3.7
Wustl lawyer-judge: 3.9
USC lawyer-judge: 3.6
(weighted together, Wustl's reputation is higher than USC)
http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leit ... oners.html
Note that WUSTL's has been going up in both categories every year for a while, while no other top law school has been going up in both categories.

Wustl's student credentials are higher than USC's.
WUSTL: 167, 3.7
USC: 167, 3.6
See schools' respective websites
Note that WUSTL's student credentials used to be far lower than USC's and are now higher and rising every year.

Wustl's employment numbers from last year are higher than USC's
See schools' respective websites or a pdf file of the last US News rankings available on Brian Leiter's legal blog site.
Note that WUSTL recently employed a brand new CSO staff and has a rather large office now.

These categories account for the majority of the ranking criteria.

Why the difference in ranking? USC's expenditures per student are way, way higher than WUSTL's (and many top 10 schools).
USC: .22
Wustl: .10

This is why many people say that WUSTL will go beyond USC in the rankings. Hope this helps.

[Blindmelon]

Emboss is wrong. Sorry bud. If you look at the new NLJ250 biglaw placement numbers, WUSTL is around 25ish (if I remember right) and USC overtakes UCLA. US News isn't everything. Employment stats speak louder than US News - even on rep. scores.

WUSTL is a good school, but employment stats-wise it belong more in the 25 range. Their medians are really high because they give out ridiculous scholarships. It doesn't correlate with employment outcomes.

[Emboss]

OP's post asked why people think that Wustl will surpass USC in the rankings.

"I have heard multiple times on this forum that Wash U is going to surpass USC in the rankings."

I assume he meant US News rankings, since these are the rankings most people care most about--not NLJ 250 rankings.

My post responded to his. Your post, on the other hand, has nothing to do with US News rankings, but with NLJ 250 rankings. I don't believe OP was asking whether Wustl will outplace USC in the NLJ 250 rankings. USC does outplace Wustl there, but Wustl's employment statistics--that is, the percentage of graduates employed at graduation and the percentage of graduates employed 9 months out of graduation, the ones used by US News--are higher than USC's in both categories according to last year's rankings.

The NLJ 250 rankings are still relevant, but have nothing to do with OP's post regarding US News rankings, since they are not part of the criteria used to create those rankings.

[stratocophic]

Emboss is wrong. Sorry bud. If you look at the new NLJ250 biglaw placement numbers, WUSTL is around 25ish (if I remember right) and USC overtakes UCLA. US News isn't everything. Employment stats speak louder than US News - even on rep. scores.

WUSTL is a good school, but employment stats-wise it belong more in the 25 range. Their medians are really high because they give out ridiculous scholarships. It doesn't correlate with employment outcomes.

USNWR are less important than employment prospects, but NLJ rankings will likely follow the USNWR given sufficient reaction time.

I'm pretty sure Dean Syverud was lured away from Vandy by WUSTL because of the gains Vandy experienced during his tenure. WUSTL has seen similar (though less dramatic, at least to this point) improvement during his tenure as dean, so I'll be interested to see where they end up in a few years.

[Blindmelon]

OP's post asked why people think that Wustl will surpass USC in the rankings.

"I have heard multiple times on this forum that Wash U is going to surpass USC in the rankings."

I assume he meant US News rankings, since these are the rankings most people care most about--not NLJ 250 rankings.

My post responded to his. Your post, on the other hand, has nothing to do with US News rankings, but with NLJ 250 rankings. I don't believe OP was asking whether Wustl will outplace USC in the NLJ 250 rankings. USC does outplace Wustl there, but Wustl's employment statistics--that is, the percentage of graduates employed at graduation and the percentage of graduates employed 9 months out of graduation, the ones used by US News--are higher than USC's in both categories according to last year's rankings.

The NLJ 250 rankings are still relevant, but have nothing to do with OP's post regarding US News rankings, since they are not part of the criteria used to create those rankings.

Okay. But if you want to base your decision off of US News then you're doing something wrong. Higher % having jobs means 0. These jobs could be anything from firm to temp work to law school admin work.

OP, if you're asking this to decide between the two schools, then please look at placement data, not US News speculation. WUSTL is a great school, but its peers are more on the BU/Emory/GW end than on the USC/UCLA/UT end.

[RayFinkle]

Yea, I was just looking for an explanation for the USNWR rankings, but appreciate the other input. It seems that WUSTL is a very polarizing school on here, so I will just let the ASD speak for itself.

Don't really understand the discrepancy between giving out scholarships to get numbers higher and spending money on students. If both of you are correct and WUSTL buys numbers while USCS spends more than double (if that is how I am supposed to read that stat) on each student, isn't that basically the same thing? I mean, I don't know how the money per student is allocated, but it would seem to me that as long as you have adequate facilities, great professors, and good resources then you would rather have the money in the form of a scholarship.

Maybe I a missing the point.

edit: And thank you for the detailed explanation emboss.

[chango]

[RayFinkle]

Obviously I do, or else I wouldn't have posted. But I respect the post if you find it necessary to insert yourself for perceived comedic value or to belittle someone. Rock on.

edit: Oh, I just realized you are from southern cal and may be at USC. Now it makes more sense.

[chango]

Obviously I do, or else I wouldn't have posted. But I respect the post if you find it necessary to insert yourself for perceived comedic value or to belittle someone. Rock on.

edit: Oh, I just realized you are from southern cal and may be at USC. Now it makes more sense.

Okay, I'll bite:

Why does it matter to you?

[jks289]

USC in incredibly overrated. They spend a ton of money per student, and hype their "alumni network" but in the end they are as regional as can be. The reputation barely carries to Northern California. No one puts USC in the UCLA/UT category, except for Blindmelon. USC and WUSTL are entirely comparable institutions. A minor shift in ranking in either direction isn't going to reflect or affect anything significant. If you want west coast, USC is the better choice. If you want mid-west and probably East WUSTL. Either school you need to graduate high up to land BigLaw. I think if the question is in general quality of education (professors, classes, etc) the WUSTL wins hands down. But really, we should all stop paying attention to these goddamn rankings.

[im_blue]

USC in incredibly overrated. They spend a ton of money per student, and hype their "alumni network" but in the end they are as regional as can be. The reputation barely carries to Northern California. No one puts USC in the UCLA/UT category, except for Blindmelon. USC and WUSTL are entirely comparable institutions. A minor shift in ranking in either direction isn't going to reflect or affect anything significant. If you want west coast, USC is the better choice. If you want mid-west and probably East WUSTL. Either school you need to graduate high up to land BigLaw. I think if the question is in general quality of education (professors, classes, etc) the WUSTL wins hands down. But really, we should all stop paying attention to these goddamn rankings.

+1. At least WUSTL places in St. Louis, Chicago, the rest of the Midwest, and even some on the East Coast. USC's reach barely reaches to San Francisco.

[PomasThynchon]

Emboss is wrong. Sorry bud. If you look at the new NLJ250 biglaw placement numbers, WUSTL is around 25ish (if I remember right) and USC overtakes UCLA. US News isn't everything. Employment stats speak louder than US News - even on rep. scores.

WUSTL is a good school, but employment stats-wise it belong more in the 25 range. Their medians are really high because they give out ridiculous scholarships. It doesn't correlate with employment outcomes.

Meh, I've never been convinced by the argument that WUSTL "buys" it's students. An incoming class with higher medians in and of itself should be enough without question who gives out more money, which leads to bullshit lines of reasoning like does a student intrinsically "like" a place more or were they bought? Bullshit. Higher caliber classes(going by medians) equals higher caliber classes. Period.

[Blindmelon]

USC in incredibly overrated. They spend a ton of money per student, and hype their "alumni network" but in the end they are as regional as can be. The reputation barely carries to Northern California. No one puts USC in the UCLA/UT category, except for Blindmelon. USC and WUSTL are entirely comparable institutions. A minor shift in ranking in either direction isn't going to reflect or affect anything significant. If you want west coast, USC is the better choice. If you want mid-west and probably East WUSTL. Either school you need to graduate high up to land BigLaw. I think if the question is in general quality of education (professors, classes, etc) the WUSTL wins hands down. But really, we should all stop paying attention to these goddamn rankings.

Didn't meant to imply USC is a peer of UCLA/UT/Vand - but just based on placement, USC > WUSTL.

[TheThreader]

would a 45k scholly from washu extract money from USC? If so, how much? What about those summer fellowships?

[ihp12]

I think that Wash U as a university being pretty prestigous might be helping to boost its rep, and thus its rankings. For example, if Dartmouth decided to get a law school, it would probably get a rankings boost just because its Dartmouth. This of course is not nescesarily a reason to choose it over other schools, just an explanation of whats going on with the rankings.

That said, there's no getting around Wash U's medians - their high. It's placement, particularly in Biglaw, has not yet caught up with its rise in the rankings, but that does not mean that it never will.

At the end of the day, both are EXCELLENT law schools with great job prospects. If its ultimately a choice between USC and WUSTL, the above poster was right - its all about where you want to practice. USC may place better in the NLJ 250, but its all in Cali. WUSTL places lower in NLJ 250, but its a little more spread out.

[Aberzombie1892]

Since when was USC not a peer of UCLA/UT? It places similarly in large firms and it's no more regional than UT or UCLA. Unless I'm mistaken, USC bested UCLA in terms of federal clerkships and NLJ250 (and I'm not).

Maybe I'm missing something.

[beachbum]

Emboss did a great job answering your question, and I think WUSTL will jump USC very soon: if not this year, then next year. Of course, we've been saying that for a couple years now, but just looking at the recent trends in data, it's bound to happen in the near future. WUSTL gives out scholarships like candy, and they appear to be shooting for a 168 median this year.

[keg411]

Does it really matter? Both of these schools are regional.

[jtype01]

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[sublime]

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[sublime]

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[Mack.Hambleton]

would a 45k scholly from washu extract money from USC? If so, how much? What about those summer fellowships?

Probably about the same. I know USC wasn't willing to match when WUSTL made it rain last year.

Also, StL's way lower COL is something to consider, but again, it depends on where you want to work.

They posted that comment over three years ago, so hopefully they've got it figured out