Top schools hired by NLJ 250 firms in 2009!!! Forum

[underachiever]

So does this spell the end of Penn's magical 100% employment rate???

haha, no!....they will just get "other" or "non-law jobs", i.e. construction, working for the university, etc

[OperaSoprano]

NYC's demise can't fully explain the drop of CCN + Penn + Cornell when Michigan and Virginia took such tiny hits.

Are there are other factors on the table?

BTW, does anyone have these numbers for the entire top 50 from last year? I want to see whether Cardozo is up, because I suspect they might be. My classmates and I visited last spring, and the numbers they gave us didn't look that rosy, after we accounted for response percentages. I had a frank conversation with a top 5% BLS student (class of 2009), and things didn't sound as good there.

What do you guys think? I'm frankly surprised, and happy for them if they are up, though they need to stop with the scholarship yanking. They have more money than we do (yes, really), and can afford to avoid playing games like this.

[miamiman]

Here's an example of how many 2009 grads were employed for the purposes of USNWR.

I attended the 9/09 miami lsac forum. The admissions rep for Umich was a 2009 grad. He said he was "working" for the admissions office prior to accepting a PI job. Months later I reaad the feature in GQ by an "unemployed recent law grad." The author of that article and the rep I met in miami were the same person. Clearly this is anecdotal and the lsat teaches us to be skeptical of an unrepresentative sample, but I suspect this story will be a fairly recurring one among 2009/2010 grads.

[RVP11]

Well im guessing it is b/c Penn is so NY heavy (a few to DC and Philly) and Philly got crushed and so did NYC. While both UVA and Michigan are much more diversified in-terms of where graduates go. Michigan does spread through the Midwest and a substantial amount to Chicago, plus they still send more to DC then Penn does. The same with UVA, which feeds through the south and DC with NYC as the #1 destination but not by the large percentage it is for Penn graduates....still no excuse, Penn got owned

Yes, UVA and Michigan have more diverse geographic placement, but not so much more that it accounts for the difference, I don't think. I'll let someone who's better with statistics determine that for sure.

[Helmholtz]

NYC's demise can't fully explain the drop of CCN + Penn + Cornell when Michigan and Virginia took such tiny hits.

Are there are other factors on the table?

BTW, does anyone have these numbers for the entire top 50 from last year? I want to see whether Cardozo is up, because I suspect they might be. My classmates and I visited last spring, and the numbers they gave us didn't look that rosy, after we accounted for response percentages. I had a frank conversation with a top 5% BLS student (class of 2009), and things didn't sound as good there.

What do you guys think? I'm frankly surprised, and happy for them if they are up, though they need to stop with the scholarship yanking. They have more money than we do (yes, really), and can afford to avoid playing games like this.

I'm fairly certain NLJ only published the top 20 schools for the C/O 2007 and 2008. I looked for a while months ago for more data but never ran across it.

[09042014]

All NLJ250 firms aren't the same. I'm curious to see V100 2L SA placement. That would negate clerkships, and firms that don't pay market.

[OperaSoprano]

NYC's demise can't fully explain the drop of CCN + Penn + Cornell when Michigan and Virginia took such tiny hits.

Are there are other factors on the table?

BTW, does anyone have these numbers for the entire top 50 from last year? I want to see whether Cardozo is up, because I suspect they might be. My classmates and I visited last spring, and the numbers they gave us didn't look that rosy, after we accounted for response percentages. I had a frank conversation with a top 5% BLS student (class of 2009), and things didn't sound as good there.

What do you guys think? I'm frankly surprised, and happy for them if they are up, though they need to stop with the scholarship yanking. They have more money than we do (yes, really), and can afford to avoid playing games like this.

I'm fairly certain NLJ only published the top 20 schools for the C/O 2007 and 2008. I looked for a while months ago for more data but never ran across it.

Goddammit! (sorry, Helm, and thank you for looking.) I just really want to know whether Cardozo is up, and I will be unable to finish my appellate brief until someone brings me some reliable data on the subject.

[kittenmittons]

MADNESS

[Helmholtz]

MADNESS

[swc65]

Well im guessing it is b/c Penn is so NY heavy (a few to DC and Philly) and Philly got crushed and so did NYC. While both UVA and Michigan are much more diversified in-terms of where graduates go. Michigan does spread through the Midwest and a substantial amount to Chicago, plus they still send more to DC then Penn does. The same with UVA, which feeds through the south and DC with NYC as the #1 destination but not by the large percentage it is for Penn graduates....still no excuse, Penn got owned

Yes, UVA and Michigan have more diverse geographic placement, but not so much more that it accounts for the difference, I don't think. I'll let someone who's better with statistics determine that for sure.

The difference is huge between UVA and CLS. UVA actually places more grads in the DC market than the NYC market. CLS, however, something like 50 or 60% of its grads go to NYC.

UVA 29% in NYC < CLS 50 to 60% in NYC


http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/about/factsstats.htm

http://www.law.columbia.edu/careers/car ... _/Students

[postitnotes]

Well im guessing it is b/c Penn is so NY heavy (a few to DC and Philly) and Philly got crushed and so did NYC. While both UVA and Michigan are much more diversified in-terms of where graduates go. Michigan does spread through the Midwest and a substantial amount to Chicago, plus they still send more to DC then Penn does. The same with UVA, which feeds through the south and DC with NYC as the #1 destination but not by the large percentage it is for Penn graduates....still no excuse, Penn got owned

Yes, UVA and Michigan have more diverse geographic placement, but not so much more that it accounts for the difference, I don't think. I'll let someone who's better with statistics determine that for sure.

Not to mention DC and Chicago are much harder markets to get into GPA-wise, even ITE, because they are much smaller. The theory doesn't explain the marked contrast between Columbia and NYU, since both supposedly target NYC. Also GULC placed more into big law than Penn, even though GULC targets DC which is the hardest market to get.

[270910]

All NLJ250 firms aren't the same. I'm curious to see V100 2L SA placement. That would negate clerkships, and firms that don't pay market.

The vast majority of NLJ 250 firms pay market or at least 6 figures. The V100 is SUPER NYC biased. Neither is perfect, and comparing to V100 would be interesting, but it's hardly objectively a better metric.

[TTT-LS]

.

[TTT-LS]

.

[quadsixm]

Not to mention DC and Chicago are much harder markets to get into GPA-wise, even ITE, because they are much smaller. The theory doesn't explain the marked contrast between Columbia and NYU, since both supposedly target NYC. Also GULC placed more into big law than Penn, even though GULC targets DC which is the hardest market to get.

For me, it was interesting to see Loyola Chicago at 45 on the list, with 15.1% going to NLJ250, a surprisingly high percentage, with DePaul and Kent not listed.

[keg411]

NYC's demise can't fully explain the drop of CCN + Penn + Cornell when Michigan and Virginia took such tiny hits.

+1...any idea why Penn got owned? It used to place a ton into big law....so weird that it's doing worse than GULC now. It's not really known for government nor PI work either.

Glad Mich and Virginia are doing so well though, especially since some people seem to hate on us.

The Philly market was absolutely decimated.

[postitnotes]

Not to mention DC and Chicago are much harder markets to get into GPA-wise, even ITE, because they are much smaller. The theory doesn't explain the marked contrast between Columbia and NYU, since both supposedly target NYC. Also GULC placed more into big law than Penn, even though GULC targets DC which is the hardest market to get.

For me, it was interesting to see Loyola Chicago at 45 on the list, with 15.1% going to NLJ250, a surprisingly high percentage, with DePaul and Kent not listed.

Yeah, that's a pretty high percentage considering how competitive Chicago is to get with its high GPA cut-offs.

I'm really surprised at how much worse Poo-Penn, Boalttt and NYPoo did though, especially Poo-Penn.

[09042014]

firms that don't pay market.

This is an honest question: What is "market" nowadays. If you take the easy route and say 160k, then you're cutting out quite a few high(er)-end firms. I'd suggest that 145k is a better measure of market everywhere other than NYC, where the 160 line should still hold--considering that a number of firms have cut pay outside of NYC but held it up within NYC.

It varies by which market you are in. In some cities market is 120 or even lower.

A think a rough definition is whatever the top firms in that city are paying.

[postitnotes]

NYC's demise can't fully explain the drop of CCN + Penn + Cornell when Michigan and Virginia took such tiny hits.

+1...any idea why Penn got owned? It used to place a ton into big law....so weird that it's doing worse than GULC now. It's not really known for government nor PI work either.

Glad Mich and Virginia are doing so well though, especially since some people seem to hate on us.

The Philly market was absolutely decimated.

And here I was thinking that Philly law only included scenes from The Wire. (Poo-Penners used to work in Philly?)

[kittenmittons]

NYC's demise can't fully explain the drop of CCN + Penn + Cornell when Michigan and Virginia took such tiny hits.

+1...any idea why Penn got owned? It used to place a ton into big law....so weird that it's doing worse than GULC now. It's not really known for government nor PI work either.

Glad Mich and Virginia are doing so well though, especially since some people seem to hate on us.

The Philly market was absolutely decimated.

And here I was thinking that Philly law only included scenes from The Wire. (Poo-Penners used to work in Philly?)

To be fair, trolling is supposed to be clever.

hth

[09042014]

Stop beating up on penn guys. It's still a top state law school.

[Son of Cicero]

Well im guessing it is b/c Penn is so NY heavy (a few to DC and Philly) and Philly got crushed and so did NYC. While both UVA and Michigan are much more diversified in-terms of where graduates go. Michigan does spread through the Midwest and a substantial amount to Chicago, plus they still send more to DC then Penn does. The same with UVA, which feeds through the south and DC with NYC as the #1 destination but not by the large percentage it is for Penn graduates....still no excuse, Penn got owned

Yes, UVA and Michigan have more diverse geographic placement, but not so much more that it accounts for the difference, I don't think. I'll let someone who's better with statistics determine that for sure.

Not to mention DC and Chicago are much harder markets to get into GPA-wise, even ITE, because they are much smaller. The theory doesn't explain the marked contrast between Columbia and NYU, since both supposedly target NYC.

NYU went down by .1% more than Columbia. This is the only relevant comparison in a discussion about the relative impact of the economic downturn. And the notion of a single-market meltdown would account for the proportionate drop better than would any alternative I can think of.

Also GULC placed more into big law than Penn, even though GULC targets DC which is the hardest market to get.

This fact is also not inconsistent with the "New York got fucked the hardest" theory. The Class of 2009 was hired before the economic crisis, so the fact that DC has always been harder to crack into doesn't matter; a relatively large percentage of GULC students may well have made it into the more competitive D.C. market in past years due to regional reputation/proximity/higher % of students applying for DC jobs/whatever, and this trend continued during Fall 2007 when the class of 2009 went through OCI. Maybe almost all of the GULC students who went to NYC got no offered last year., whereas the D.C. people who had more difficulty securing jobs during sunnier days were able to keep these jobs while their peers in NYC - like students at Penn, NYU, and CLS - got screwed.

[keg411]

I think the biggest problem is that no-offers weren't made by school. So a few data points here and there could have skewed some of these numbers. A disproportionate number of CLS and Penn students could have gotten no-offered in relation to Michigan/UVA students. Also, note that for the class of '10 (the current 3L's), Chicago students got more screwed with no-offers than New York students and Philly went down even further (at least from what I've heard anecdotally), so the numbers might look very different next year. '09 was the first year of deferrals/no-offers but the data will likely become clearer next year (when we see the full scope of no-offers) and the year after. Unfortunately, most of us will already be 2L's and have sealed our fates by then .

[RVP11]

firms that don't pay market.

This is an honest question: What is "market" nowadays. If you take the easy route and say 160k, then you're cutting out quite a few high(er)-end firms. I'd suggest that 145k is a better measure of market everywhere other than NYC, where the 160 line should still hold--considering that a number of firms have cut pay outside of NYC but held it up within NYC.

It varies by which market you are in. In some cities market is 120 or even lower.

A think a rough definition is whatever the top firms in that city are paying.

Yep, and another thing to keep in mind is that the "market" rate in smaller markets is pretty fluid and hardly results in the same uniformity you see in NYC/DC. In a smaller market there can be firms paying 135k right alongside firms paying 110k and it's not necessarily an indication that one firm is objectively any better or more selective than the other.

[09042014]

I think the biggest problem is that no-offers weren't made by school. So a few data points here and there could have skewed some of these numbers. A disproportionate number of CLS and Penn students could have gotten no-offered in relation to Michigan/UVA students. Also, note that for the class of '10 (the current 3L's), Chicago students got more screwed with no-offers than New York students and Philly went down even further (at least from what I've heard anecdotally), so the numbers might look very different next year. '09 was the first year of deferrals/no-offers but the data will likely become clearer next year (when we see the full scope of no-offers) and the year after. Unfortunately, most of us will already be 2L's and have sealed our fates by then .

Ten percent differences in placement aren't that significant in the long run. Worry more about studying smart.