Mich ($) /GULC/VT ($$$$) for environmental/PI law Forum

[eakelley]

Deciding between Michigan with a small scholarship, Georgetown with no money, and Vermont with a full scholarship. BC and BU are options as well, but have yet to receive a scholarship from either. No interest in big law, want to work in government/PI. Strong ties to east coast/New England and will probably end up there, though don't necessarily want to be limited. Went to college in VT and loved it, would love spending 3 more years there. Trying to minimize debt, and for this reason (and many others!) Vermont is very attractive, but I am worried how it might limit me later on. Please help! Thanks

[Tangerine Gleam]

Unless you have a very, very specific vision for your future where you can specifically see Vermont playing doubtlessly to your advantage, I would be very wary on going that route. Money at Michigan certainly sounds like the best choice to me...it won't close any doors relative to your other choices and will give you a broad range of options. As far as gov't/environmental stuff goes, Ken Salazar got to head the Department of the Interior with his Michigan degree...that's just anecdotal, but in general Michigan is strong in all fields.

I don't see any reason to take Georgetown, even with your government focus. You have money at a better school (Michigan) which will be further compounded by a lower cost of living in Ann Arbor. GULC would end up being significantly more expensive.

[starstruck393]

Michigan by a mile

[BigFatPanda]

Given your interest in public service, DO NOT WORRY ABOUT DEBT.

I voted for Georgetown because of its high powered network in the heart of DC and its tie to the Federal Government, not to mention its top notch foreign service school. Once you get your degree and work for the government in DC for couple of years, you can go anywhere in the US.

Although Mich is a top tier school that ranked higher than Georgetown, however, its geographical distance from the most powerful city on the world is a disservice to your goal in term of networks and alumni base. The scholarship sounds good but ultimately, your debt will be taken care of by Georgetown's loan repayment / foregiveness program if you committ yourself to public service.

Go to Georgetown.

[fortissimo]

Given your interest in public service, DO NOT WORRY ABOUT DEBT.

What are the fine print terms for IBR? Did you read them? Assuming you get a qualifying PI job -- which is very competitive to get, the federal PI jobs are oftentimes more competitive than biglaw -- and you qualify for IBR loan forgiveness after 10 years, you will still be forced to live frugally for a decade of your life. Most schools' LRAPs cover up to 10 year periods and may cover that period of time, but they also have numerous requirements that you have to fulfill in the meantime. If your situation changes you may get kicked out of LRAP, forced to pay back the school loans on interest, and/or not disqualify for IBR.

P.S. "Networking" is largely a 0L myth. It's all about grades and your ranking in your class. Oh, and not being a complete misanthrope. Looks probably factor in as well, but possibly only at the extremes.

[Tangerine Gleam]

Although Mich is a top tier school that ranked higher than Georgetown, however, its geographical distance from the most powerful city on the world is a disservice to your goal in term of networks and alumni base.

This is totally not true.

Michigan has one of the most massive alumni bases in the world and is quite powerful in Washington in that regard. A recent conversation I had with two D.C. attorneys (one of whom is a hiring partner at a D.C. firm, the other of whom is at the DOJ) both said that a Michigan grad is likely to be seen as more favorable than a Georgetown grad. Georgetown churns out so many J.D.'s, many of whom stick around D.C.; by virtue of the fact that Michigan places well across the country, it doesn't send as many folks to D.C. as it could, so a strong Michigan grad is harder to come by than a GULC grad.

I think this is the third time I've quoted BigFatPanda giving admissions advice and then chimed in, "OP, this is totally not true."

[holydonkey]

Although Mich is a top tier school that ranked higher than Georgetown, however, its geographical distance from the most powerful city on the world is a disservice to your goal in term of networks and alumni base.

This is totally not true.

Michigan has one of the most massive alumni bases in the world and is quite powerful in Washington in that regard. A recent conversation I had with two D.C. attorneys (one of whom is a hiring partner at a D.C. firm, the other of whom is at the DOJ) both said that a Michigan grad is likely to be seen as more favorable than a Georgetown grad. Georgetown churns out so many J.D.'s, many of whom stick around D.C.; by virtue of the fact that Michigan places well across the country, it doesn't send as many folks to D.C. as it could, so a strong Michigan grad is harder to come by than a GULC grad.

I think this is the third time I've quoted BigFatPanda giving admissions advice and then chimed in, "OP, this is totally not true."

Just something to think about for DC. Michigan Law grads currently in the administration include...

Valerie Jarrett, Senior Adviser to Obama
Ken Salazar, Secretary of the Interior
Melody Barnes, Director of Domestic Policy Council
Daniel Tarullo, Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve
Aaron Lewis, Counsel to the Attorney General
Robert S. Adler, Commissioner, Consumer Product Safety Commission
Luis C. de Baca, Ambassador-at-Large to Monitor and Combat Trafficking
Lisa Konwinski, Deputy Assistant to the President for Legislative Affairs
David Sandalow, Assistant Energy Secretary for Policy and International Affairs
Karol V. Mason, Deputy Associate Attorney General
Transition Team: Katzen Dyk and Van Putten
Susan Crawford, Special Assistant to the President
Michael Barr, Assistant Treasury Secretary

[insidethetwenty]

Going to Vermont simply because you <3 environmental law is a BAD idea. Tons of people love and want to practice environmental law as 0L's and end up realizing that the job prospects are limited, they are very specific, and the really good government enviro jobs are extremely competitive (i.e. you really need T14)

Now, if you want to settle down in Vermont, live nowhere but Vermont, and are willing to make serious sacrifices as to what you practice in Vermont (it's not like PI Envirolaw jobs grow on trees in the state of Vermont), then you should take the money and run. There's always something to be said for ZERO DEBT. Maybe after a lot of personal legwork and pro bono work on environmental issues you'll be able to work your way up into the superenvirolawyer career you want.

Cliff Notes: If you want the best chance at the best envirojobs, go Mich/GULC; if you are fine with living in Vermont, doing serious personal legwork during LS and afterward, take VT with the money.

[starstruck393]

Although Mich is a top tier school that ranked higher than Georgetown, however, its geographical distance from the most powerful city on the world is a disservice to your goal in term of networks and alumni base.

This is totally not true.

Michigan has one of the most massive alumni bases in the world and is quite powerful in Washington in that regard. A recent conversation I had with two D.C. attorneys (one of whom is a hiring partner at a D.C. firm, the other of whom is at the DOJ) both said that a Michigan grad is likely to be seen as more favorable than a Georgetown grad. Georgetown churns out so many J.D.'s, many of whom stick around D.C.; by virtue of the fact that Michigan places well across the country, it doesn't send as many folks to D.C. as it could, so a strong Michigan grad is harder to come by than a GULC grad.

I think this is the third time I've quoted BigFatPanda giving admissions advice and then chimed in, "OP, this is totally not true."

Just something to think about for DC. Michigan Law grads currently in the administration include...

Valerie Jarrett, Senior Adviser to Obama
Ken Salazar, Secretary of the Interior
Melody Barnes, Director of Domestic Policy Council
Daniel Tarullo, Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve
Aaron Lewis, Counsel to the Attorney General
Robert S. Adler, Commissioner, Consumer Product Safety Commission
Luis C. de Baca, Ambassador-at-Large to Monitor and Combat Trafficking
Lisa Konwinski, Deputy Assistant to the President for Legislative Affairs
David Sandalow, Assistant Energy Secretary for Policy and International Affairs
Karol V. Mason, Deputy Associate Attorney General
Transition Team: Katzen Dyk and Van Putten
Susan Crawford, Special Assistant to the President
Michael Barr, Assistant Treasury Secretary

This. GULC or GW are also good bets if you want to work in DC, but to say that GULC at sticker is better for DC than Michigan with $ is just ridiculous.

[Alexandria]

Susan Crawford, Special Assistant to the President

She's not a Michigan Law grad (Yale) and she's also no longer in the administration. I know this because she is one of my professors (at Michigan). She came back to Ann Arbor last month... she was just on leave while working in the administration.

[Alexandria]

Oh, I just looked up Michael Barr, and it's the same deal for him. I think wherever you got the list, it was a mixed list of Michigan Law grads and Michigan Law faculty.

At any rate, I think it's pretty clearly true that DC employers go deeper into the class at Michigan than at GULC. And that your opportunities will be much greater coming out of either of those schools than out of Vermont. And that if you want to do PI, you can get LRAP programs to help you repay loans.

[keg411]

Michigan, easily. You got $, COL is cheaper in AA, and it's the best school you got into .

[holydonkey]

Very true, mixed list of alums and profs. my bad. Still....

[eakelley]

thanks for the helpful advice! pretty much tells me what i was thinking anyway--makes sense to go to the best school you get into. just worried about taking on so much debt in this economy. i have plans to visit schools in march so we'll see how that goes. michigan is awesome though, i'm definitely excited it's one of my options.

[Tangerine Gleam]

Given your interest in public service, DO NOT WORRY ABOUT DEBT.

Wait, what?

How did I miss this part?

[starstruck393]

Given your interest in public service, DO NOT WORRY ABOUT DEBT.

Wait, what?

How did I miss this part?

It was hidden in with other bad advice

[beef wellington]

Given your interest in public service, DO NOT WORRY ABOUT DEBT.

Wait, what?

How did I miss this part?

Makes sense to me. Assuming IBR, Michigan's $ doesn't change the amount of OP's payments.

[fortissimo]

Given your interest in public service, DO NOT WORRY ABOUT DEBT.

Wait, what?

How did I miss this part?

Makes sense to me. Assuming IBR, Michigan's $ doesn't change the amount of OP's payments.

Major math fail.

When does the 10-year clock start, and which payments count? Only payments made after October 1, 2007 count towards the 10 years (120 monthly payments, not necessarily consecutive) required for Public Service Loan Forgiveness. Qualifying payments are payments made through the William D. Ford Direct Loan Program in any of the following three repayment plans: the Income Contingent Repayment plan, the Standard (10-year) Repayment plan, and the Income-Based Repayment plan.

To count, these payments must be made while you're working full-time in an eligible job. "Full-time," according to the final regulations issued by the Department of Education, means an annual average of 30 hours per week or the standard for full-time used by the employer, whichever is greater. For people working part-time at two or more qualifying jobs, "full-time" means an annual average of 30 hours across all jobs held. In professions such as teaching, annual contracts that include at least eight months of full-time work will be treated as the equivalent of a full year's employment. If you meet all the criteria, the earliest your remaining debt could be forgiven is October 2017.

How does IBR make payments more affordable? IBR uses a kind of sliding scale to determine how much you can afford to pay on your federal loans. If you earn below 150% of the poverty level for your family size, your required loan payment will be $0. If you earn more, your loan payment will be capped at 15 percent of whatever you earn above that amount. Except for the highest earners, that usually works out to less than 10 percent of your total income.

There's two different issues:
(1) having your loans forgiven after 10 years and
(2) paying your loans during the 10 years.
We are obviously debating issue 2 right now. (This is all assuming you even get a job that qualifies.) The more debt you take out, the more you owe. Since you have to use one of 3 repayment plans, you will probably have higher monthly payments for 10 years -- holding constant the repayment plan -- because the repayment plans use the same rate regardless of the debt amount, at least this is what typically happens. According to the second quote, before your loan is forgiven, you have to earn below 150% your poverty level to pay nothing. If you don't earn 150% below the poverty line-- and really, 150% below the poverty line? -- you still have to make monthly payments that cap out at 15% of what you earn ABOVE that amount. If you take out more debt, you may have to pay larger monthly payments if your payments are below 15% of that amount but you aren't 150% below the poverty line.

There's other issues to take into consideration, like LRAP, etc., but IBR doesn't just "wipe" your slate clean. You still have to make payments during the 10 year period, assuming your job qualifies in the first place. (It's really competitive getting one of these jobs in the first place.) Your monthly payment amount depends on the amount of debt you have.

[beef wellington]

Your monthly payment depends on your income. Hence the name Income-Based Repayment. Someone making $50k/yr with $100k worth of debt from Michigan is going to have the same monthly payment as someone making $50k/yr with $200k worth of debt from GULC. Go to finaid.org and play around with their calculator.

[JordynAsh]

ITT: BigFatPoorAdvice.

[fortissimo]

Your monthly payment depends on your income. Hence the name Income-Based Repayment. Someone making $50k/yr with $100k worth of debt from Michigan is going to have the same monthly payment as someone making $50k/yr with $200k worth of debt from GULC. Go to finaid.org and play around with their calculator.

There's a two step process:
(1) Calculate monthly debt repayments based on amount of debt. (If you want to use LRAP for your school, you usually have to use a certain repayment plan.)
(2) Figure out if you are 150% below the poverty line. They cap your monthly payment at 15% above X level as defined above in previous post. This part depends on your income. You still have to pay back your loans depending on how much your debt it.

Michigan's LRAP is better and will probably cover the payments until your loans are forgiven after 10 years, but the monthly payments you make depend on the amount of debt you have.

[beef wellington]

Your monthly payment depends on your income. Hence the name Income-Based Repayment. Someone making $50k/yr with $100k worth of debt from Michigan is going to have the same monthly payment as someone making $50k/yr with $200k worth of debt from GULC. Go to finaid.org and play around with their calculator.

It depends on income and it depends on your debt amount, obviously.
(1) You have 3 debt repayment plans, and your monthly payment is calculated based off your debt amount. (Why would the website mention 3 different repayment plans if we are just basing this solely off income?)
(2) Then they look at your income, and cap it at 15% above the amount X as defined in my previous post. If your monthly payment is below 15% above that amount X, you pay your entire calculated monthly payment.

Michigan has a better LRAP anyway that will probably cover OP's payments for the 10 years before OP's loans are forgiven via IBR, but I'm just pointing out that your post was illogical. Monthly payment amounts differ depending on debt, obviously.

My post said that Michigan's scholarship was presumably not enough to change OP's payment assuming IBR and typical PI salaries. This is true.

I calculated this for someone who starts out at $41k in year 1 and is making $62k+ in year 10 (these are the median figures for lawyers who go to work for non-profits). Anyway, your debt upon graduation would have to be less than $50k for the scholly to matter. In short, the scholarship has to be pretty huge to make a difference if you'll be doing PI and IBR. Again, go to finaid.org if you don't believe me and play around with their IBR calculator yourself.

BTW, GULC's LRAP is WAY better than Michigan's. It was even before they upgraded it. Are you just making shit up or what?

[fortissimo]

My post said that Michigan's scholarship was presumably not enough to change OP's payment assuming IBR and typical PI salaries. This is true.

I calculated this for someone who starts out at $41k in year 1 and is making $62k+ in year 10 (these are the median figures for lawyers who go to work for non-profits). Anyway, your debt upon graduation would have to be less than $50k for the scholly to matter. In short, the scholarship has to be pretty huge to make a difference if you'll be doing PI and IBR. Again, go to finaid.org if you don't believe me and play around with their IBR calculator yourself.

BTW, GULC's LRAP is WAY better than Michigan's. It was even before they upgraded it. Are you just making shit up or what?

If your income is very paltry, and 41k seems pretty paltry, then it won't matter that much, but neither of us know what the poverty line is for person X nor what 150% below that is.

Georgetown's updated LRAP is limited to U.S. based government agencies and nonprofit 501(c)(3) organizations, while Michigan's LRAP is available to a person working ANY "law-related" job. Considering how competitive it is to get a 501(c)(3) job, etc. I would feel more comfortable having a LRAP that isn't discriminatory and that you can take advantage of even if you end up getting bad law. Heck, it sounds like if you work as a paralegal, you are qualified for Michigan's LRAP. In addition, IBR is available for graduates of both schools...

And last I heard, GULC was destroyed at OCI this past year. LRAP/IBR are moot points when you don't even have a job.

[beef wellington]

My post said that Michigan's scholarship was presumably not enough to change OP's payment assuming IBR and typical PI salaries. This is true.

I calculated this for someone who starts out at $41k in year 1 and is making $62k+ in year 10 (these are the median figures for lawyers who go to work for non-profits). Anyway, your debt upon graduation would have to be less than $50k for the scholly to matter. In short, the scholarship has to be pretty huge to make a difference if you'll be doing PI and IBR. Again, go to finaid.org if you don't believe me and play around with their IBR calculator yourself.

BTW, GULC's LRAP is WAY better than Michigan's. It was even before they upgraded it. Are you just making shit up or what?

If your income is very paltry, and 41k seems pretty paltry, then it won't matter that much, but I'm not sure if 41k per year is "150%" below the poverty line for X individual, and neither do you.

Georgetown's updated LRAP is limited to U.S. based government agencies and nonprofit 501(c)(3) organizations, while Michigan's LRAP is available to a person working ANY "law-related" job. Considering how competitive it is to get a 501(c)(3) job, etc. I would feel more comfortable having a LRAP that isn't discriminatory. Heck, it sounds like if you work as a paralegal, you are qualified for Michigan's LRAP. In addition, IBR is available for graduates of both schools...

And last I heard, GULC was destroyed at OCI this past year. LRAP/IBR are moot points when you don't even have a job.

Dude, I do know the federal poverty level. It's the same for everybody. My point still stands that scholarships pretty much don't matter for IBR people unless they're full rides + stipends.

And you're actually going to sit here and argue that an LRAP with a soft cap of $36k/yr is superior to one with a soft cap of $75k/yr? Not only that, you said Michigan's LRAP would likely cover all of OP's payments. WTF?

And OCI is irrelevant for PI people, who pretty much have to do their own job searches.

But what does this have to do with anything? It's almost as if you're shifting the argument because originally you falsely accused me of a "major math fail" and now you're trying to save face by scoring on some unrelated point...

[fortissimo]

Dude, I do know the federal poverty level. It's the same for everybody.

I meant the poverty level depends on your family situation. http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/09poverty.shtml.

And you're actually going to sit here and argue that an LRAP with a soft cap of $36k/yr is superior to one with a soft cap of $75k/yr? Not only that, you said Michigan's LRAP would likely cover all of OP's payments. WTF?

You can benefit from LRAP and IBR at the same time. Working in conjunction, perhaps. I think an LRAP that allows you to do whatever you want in the legal field is better than one that limits you to working only two types of jobs.

And OCI is irrelevant for PI people, who pretty much have to do their own job searches.

Right, but federal government agencies recruit at OCI, so the comment should be taken into consideration for general LRAP/IBR purposes even if the discussion has drifted beyond the narrow theme of this thread.

But what does this have to do with anything? It's almost as if you're shifting the argument because originally you falsely accused me of a "major math fail" and now you're trying to save face by scoring on some unrelated point...

The ability to get a job is another factor the OP should consider when deciding whether or not to attend a school.