Michigan (sticker) v. BU ($60k) Forum

[Kiersten1985]

UPDATE: Visited Michigan and glad I did. I know it's ranked higher and all, but it's just NOT for me. Way too far from anything urban, way too much of an undergrad feel, and I have to say, slightly cult-ish in its school spirit. No offense to anyone - everyone I met there was really nice and friendly, I just constantly felt older than everyone around me and I'm pretty sure I was the only person wearing black at many times (as opposed to the bright blue and yellow). I was there for 4 whole days, so I can safely say I got a good feel for it. The law quad is spectacular, the buildings are absolutely gorgeous and the class I sat in on seemed pretty good. But there's just no way I can see myself there for 3 years. I'm too much of an East coast girl and too much of a city person.

BU it is!!!
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UPDATE!!!!! Michigan just offered me $30k over 3 years after I explained my situation re: other aid offers!!! I'm not sure how I could logically turn them down now unless I end up REALLY hating Ann Arbor.
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UPDATE: I was offered $60k from BU over 3 years, which is a great offer. I'm going to be visiting Michigan the second weekend of April and I'll see how I like the feel of it. My cycle's also complete finally, so it's really between BU and Michigan. I'm retaking the LSAT in June in hopes of getting off of the CLS waitlist but obviously not something I can bank on at the moment.

I should also add that my interest is public international law (eventually) and I like making money. Please vote! Thanks!
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ORIGINAL POST:
I'm still waiting to hear back from 6 schools, but since they're all reaches, I'm starting to think more seriously about where I'll end up going. Michigan is the highest ranked school to which I've been accepted, but I really, really am not excited about the prospect of leaving the northeast. I'm currently in NYC with plans to move back to Boston (my hometown) eventually to raise a family and spend summers at my dream Cape house But I digress...

I'm thinking I can squeeze some cash out of BU, but not expecting any from Michigan. Would I be crazy to choose BU over Michigan? I can safely say that if I do decently well at BU, I would have a BigLaw job in NYC if I wanted after graduation (which is what I'd like to do for a few years before officially moving back to Boston).

I have transferring in the back of my mind, too, as an option. Any thoughts of what I'd need to go from BU to Columbia/Harvard (the only schools I'd consider transferring to) are welcome.

Thanks as always

[showNprove]

First, banking on transferring to a T5 school is like assuming you'll make LR. Just because you got into Michigan doesn't mean you'll get top grades at BU. Do not, by any means, go to BU for that reason.

Michigan places well in NYC, and plenty of Boston firms will want to snatch you up simply because you're from the area and go to Michigan Law. Even if your grades are mediocre, simply having those two qualities will get you interviews with small, mid-sized, and some large firms from Boston.

Since you know you want to be in the Northeast AND have connections there, only take BU if they're going to be paying a large portion of your tuition.

[Kiersten1985]

First, banking on transferring to a T5 school is like assuming you'll make LR. Just because you got into Michigan doesn't mean you'll get top grades at BU. Do not, by any means, go to BU for that reason.

Michigan places well in NYC, and plenty of Boston firms will want to snatch you up simply because you're from the area and go to Michigan Law. Even if your grades are mediocre, simply having those two qualities will get you interviews with small, mid-sized, and some large firms from Boston.

Since you know you want to be in the Northeast AND have connections there, only take BU if they're going to be paying a large portion of your tuition.

I see what you're saying - it's not just that I want to end up in the northeast, though. I really don't even like the idea of living 3 years in the midwest for law school. Being a plane ride away from everyone and thing I know and love is not appealing to me right now. This includes bf/fiance, entire family with aging grandparents and sister in college, all of my friends.

I guess my question shifts, then: Is it worth being lonely/potentially depressed for 3 years?

[beesknees]

.

[jks289]

I think the Top 20 with money is better than Top 10 with debt if (AND ONLY IF) you are certain about being regionally limited. My fear is really that my spouse gets a job somewhere in the midwest, my parents need someone living near them in CA. Geographically my life up to this point has been unpredictable and I am worried about making decisions based on where I might be in 5 years. But everyone's circumstances are different. I am planning on going into PI, so for us minimizing debt is more important than almost anything... By the way, you thoughtful people who aren't total rankings whores, I like you.

[Kiersten1985]

By the way, you thoughtful people who aren't total rankings whores, I like you.

Awwwwww!

[badwithpseudonyms]

I see what you're saying - it's not just that I want to end up in the northeast, though. I really don't even like the idea of living 3 years in the midwest for law school. Being a plane ride away from everyone and thing I know and love is not appealing to me right now. This includes bf/fiance, entire family with aging grandparents and sister in college, all of my friends.

I guess my question shifts, then: Is it worth being lonely/potentially depressed for 3 years?

I'm in a similar situation (particularly regarding the bolded), only on a less... grander scale. (You've got better schools and a bigger home market)

The TLS-CR is almost always T14/T10/T6/HYS, whatever the situation may be. But do what makes you happy. I would definitely hit up BU for some $$. You can check out Chuch's thread on negotiating, but it's just a matter of laying it out there for them. Something to the effect of you love Boston and want to be there, but ITE it's difficult to turn down a T10 and then there are those other big scholarships (Texas) you've received. I think Boston will bite. IIRC from the Cornell thread, you are pretty awesome and will be fine regardless. Just my $.02.

[awesomepossum]

Here are a few thoughts I have.


1) VISIT. It will help you figure out if you might like it here or you just can't take it.
2) VISIT. Seriously.
3) You will make friends in law school. Unless you're a total toolbox....in which case you will probably still make friends.
4) Travel out of this area is remarkably easy. It's nice to have Northwest Airlines major hub 30 mins away.
5) VISIT.

I will say this though. There are a lot of people who do long distance over law school that end up breaking up. There are people that don't, but far more do than don't from what I've seen. When law school started it seemed like everyone was in a relationship. 2 months later everyone was single.

Oh...and before I forget....visit.

[Kiersten1985]

Here are a few thoughts I have.


1) VISIT. It will help you figure out if you might like it here or you just can't take it.
2) VISIT. Seriously.
3) You will make friends in law school. Unless you're a total toolbox....in which case you will probably still make friends.
4) Travel out of this area is remarkably easy. It's nice to have Northwest Airlines major hub 30 mins away.
5) VISIT.

I will say this though. There are a lot of people who do long distance over law school that end up breaking up. There are people that don't, but far more do than don't from what I've seen. When law school started it seemed like everyone was in a relationship. 2 months later everyone was single.

Oh...and before I forget....visit.

haha - I knew this would come up. I am definitely planning to come to one of the ASWs and the proximity to the airport is huge (a major reason why Michigan is way WAY ahead of Cornell in my mind even though Cornell's still in NY).

[starstruck393]

I think the question you need to ask yourself is if a lot of debt from Michigan is much, if any, worse than less, but still a lot of, debt from BU. I definitely think $$ can be worth it. I'm a big proponent of taking the full ride at a T2/3/4 in an area you wouldn't mind working rather than sticker at a lower T1, especially if it's not in a market you're interested in.

In your situation, I could definitely see you getting upwards of $75k from BU. While that seems like a lot of money, the reality is that you'd still have $100k of debt. While there is a big difference between $180k and $100k, I don't think it's as pronounced as you may think. You're going to need a good job to pay it off either way, and with the way attorney salaries tend to be, it seems as if you'll either get a job where you could pretty easily be able pay off either amount ($100k/yr +), or a job where you'll really struggle to even pay off the lower amount ($50-$60k/yr). Considering that the T10 school would give better odds of getting you a good paying job, it seems like the safer option. Plus, when you consider how good Michigan LRAP is, as a fallback, it solidly gets my vote...

[married0L]

To the person who mentioned Emory vs. t10 with gobs of debt.

I think understanding the magnitude of debt when making this decision is critical. Visiting must happen (this is a fact). But go to a loan calculator and figure up what your monthly payments are going to be coming out of a t10 with a mortgage (of school debt) and let that inform your decision. Prestige and reputation are important in this line of work, but understanding what the cost of that is for the gain is of just as much importance. If you know you want to return to the South then Emory with money could be a great fit (if you like the school upon visiting). Sure, you might not be able to take that job in San Francisco or NYC but if those are real options any way because of family or SO or whatever reason, why pay more for them?

[romothesavior]

From a school standpoint, I would take Michigan with debt in a heartbeat over even a full ride from Boston. But....

I think people on here tend to undervalue the importance of SOs in decision making. Being happy in life involves many factors besides careers and money. If companionship, romance, and all that jazz is a really big deal for you and this guy is "the guy," then I think maybe a school in the NE like BU is the one for you. You don't want to sacrifice something that makes you happy now (him) for the chance to gruel away for the rest of your life chasing the almighty dollar.

So I guess what I'm saying is that if he is just some dude you met six months ago, then Michigan all the way. If you guys are really serious about locking it up long term, then it is a factor to be considered, and maybe it even warrants choosing BU. But that is really a question no one on here can answer; it is something for you to decide yourself.

[Kiersten1985]

From a school standpoint, I would take Michigan with debt in a heartbeat over even a full ride from Boston. But....

I think people on here tend to undervalue the importance of SOs in decision making. Being happy in life involves many factors besides careers and money. If companionship, romance, and all that jazz is a really big deal for you and this guy is "the guy," then I think maybe a school in the NE like BU is the one for you. You don't want to sacrifice something that makes you happy now (him) for the chance to gruel away for the rest of your life chasing the almighty dollar.

So I guess what I'm saying is that if he is just some dude you met six months ago, then Michigan all the way. If you guys are really serious about locking it up long term, then it is a factor to be considered, and maybe it even warrants choosing BU. But that is really a question no one on here can answer; it is something for you to decide yourself.

Thanks. Yes, he definitely is "the one." We currently live together and are planning on getting married after I finish LS. It's really just a matter of waiting to buy a ring as to not freak our parents out.

And to an earlier post re: debt - I should mention that I have about $90k of UG debt as it stands and if I wish to pay off my debt in 10 years, another $200k from LS leaves me with a monthly payment of roughly $3,300 and a total interest amount of over $100k. This scares me, TBH. I could pay it off in 20 years but then that's more interest I'm paying and all I can think about is how I could be putting that money into savings or my kids' college funds.

[badwithpseudonyms]

From a school standpoint, I would take Michigan with debt in a heartbeat over even a full ride from Boston. But....

I think people on here tend to undervalue the importance of SOs in decision making. Being happy in life involves many factors besides careers and money. If companionship, romance, and all that jazz is a really big deal for you and this guy is "the guy," then I think maybe a school in the NE like BU is the one for you. You don't want to sacrifice something that makes you happy now (him) for the chance to gruel away for the rest of your life chasing the almighty dollar.

So I guess what I'm saying is that if he is just some dude you met six months ago, then Michigan all the way. If you guys are really serious about locking it up long term, then it is a factor to be considered, and maybe it even warrants choosing BU. But that is really a question no one on here can answer; it is something for you to decide yourself.

More like romeothesavior. What a romantic.

[married0L]

Indeed that would be a lot of debt. I am a pretty risk averse person (especially when it comes to a first/second mortgage). I understand the whole t14 thing but the legal labor market is in shambles right now. I don't think that can be stressed enough. I have talked to many who came out of great schools and because of their debt had to take jobs they didn't want to take. Why go to school for three years to take a job you won't be happy with just so you can pay off your enormous debt? I would rather go a strong regional school that has strong placement in a market I know I would like to be in and take my chances. At least that way, if I can't find "the" job, I don't have a second house to pay off for the next 10-20 years that could potentially bury me and my family's ambitions.

But it is all about opportunity costs and personal preference with risk. Some would laugh at my decision making. I feel pretty comfortable with it.

My litmus test: Go visit. Consider money and market. Consider my wife's career and family location. Make informed decision that is best for all involved. Just some guy trying to do the best thing with a lot of uncertainty and ignorance.

[married0L]

Just to add on to my last post. So much of what I read on here goes directly against what I hear when I talk to numerous lawyers themselves. While I am not located in NYC, DC, Boston, etc. I have come to know many men and women in the profession that are quite successful with degrees from "lesser schools" (top 30-40). They enjoy what they are doing and are quite comfortable. Perhaps this is because they never dreamed of the NYC associate making +$150,000 right out. But that comes with strings attached to (some of which are soul sucking). Anyways, I digress.

Know what is important to you and value that more than what you hear from kids on here. Build relationships with attorneys where you live. Ask their advice. Gather info and make a decision you are comfortable with.

[starstruck393]

From a school standpoint, I would take Michigan with debt in a heartbeat over even a full ride from Boston. But....

I think people on here tend to undervalue the importance of SOs in decision making. Being happy in life involves many factors besides careers and money. If companionship, romance, and all that jazz is a really big deal for you and this guy is "the guy," then I think maybe a school in the NE like BU is the one for you. You don't want to sacrifice something that makes you happy now (him) for the chance to gruel away for the rest of your life chasing the almighty dollar.

So I guess what I'm saying is that if he is just some dude you met six months ago, then Michigan all the way. If you guys are really serious about locking it up long term, then it is a factor to be considered, and maybe it even warrants choosing BU. But that is really a question no one on here can answer; it is something for you to decide yourself.

Thanks. Yes, he definitely is "the one." We currently live together and are planning on getting married after I finish LS. It's really just a matter of waiting to buy a ring as to not freak our parents out.

And to an earlier post re: debt - I should mention that I have about $90k of UG debt as it stands and if I wish to pay off my debt in 10 years, another $200k from LS leaves me with a monthly payment of roughly $3,300 and a total interest amount of over $100k. This scares me, TBH. I could pay it off in 20 years but then that's more interest I'm paying and all I can think about is how I could be putting that money into savings or my kids' college funds.

I understand how scary that debt can be, but I think looking at $200k vs $275k pushes it even farther toward Michigan than considering $100k vs. $180k. When you're talking $200k plus in debt, you're going to need a biglaw-salary job in order to pay it back on your own. You better hope you do really well out of BU if you choose that path, because if you can't get a really high salaried job you'll be in real trouble. I think the security Michigan offers, with much better job prospects, and LRAP to fall back on, makes it just about too good to turn down.

Of course you need to take other things into account. If you absolutely won't be happy at a school, you should probably avoid it, lest it affect your performance. Though I doubt you'll have enough free time on your hands to justify going to a school in a place you like, over one in a place you're not as enamored with.

And about the SO, I don't necessarily think being apart is such a bad thing. I would hate to have picked a school based on an SO, and then break up, leaving you stranded and with regret. As for the time apart, the long distance serves as a good test. If you get through it, you can have confidence that there's a good chance you're compatible enough to last long term. If it doesn't work out, there's a good chance marriage wouldn't have lasted long term either (~52% divorce rate in the US now), and it's better to find out early than have to go through the pains of a divorce...

[married0L]

I understand your point about upwards of $200,000 in debt. However, is that the case here? What is BU is getting close to free? You are well under the $200,000 threshold. Also, if she is wanting to have children or any other family planning issues need to be included. Are you wanting to take time off when you start having kids or just work right through? These are tough issues for a woman but one's that need to be addressed when looking at how you are going to pay this money off.

[starstruck393]

Indeed that would be a lot of debt. I am a pretty risk averse person (especially when it comes to a first/second mortgage). I understand the whole t14 thing but the legal labor market is in shambles right now. I don't think that can be stressed enough. I have talked to many who came out of great schools and because of their debt had to take jobs they didn't want to take. Why go to school for three years to take a job you won't be happy with just so you can pay off your enormous debt? I would rather go a strong regional school that has strong placement in a market I know I would like to be in and take my chances. At least that way, if I can't find "the" job, I don't have a second house to pay off for the next 10-20 years that could potentially bury me and my family's ambitions.

But it is all about opportunity costs and personal preference with risk. Some would laugh at my decision making. I feel pretty comfortable with it.

My litmus test: Go visit. Consider money and market. Consider my wife's career and family location. Make informed decision that is best for all involved. Just some guy trying to do the best thing with a lot of uncertainty and ignorance.

The problem is, with the UG debt factored in, the debt will be enormous regardless. Too many people see large scholarship amounts and forget how much there is left to pay. Even with a full ride to Northeastern, she'll still have well over $100k of debt with COL added to the existing amount. Essentially wherever she goes, she'll have to take that high paying job...

[badwithpseudonyms]

I understand how scary that debt can be, but I think looking at $200k vs $275k pushes it even farther toward Michigan than considering $100k vs. $180k. When you're talking $200k plus in debt, you're going to need a biglaw-salary job in order to pay it back on your own. You better hope you do really well out of BU if you choose that path, because if you can't get a really high salaried job you'll be in real trouble. I think the security Michigan offers, with much better job prospects, and LRAP to fall back on, makes it just about too good to turn down.

Of course you need to take other things into account. If you absolutely won't be happy at a school, you should probably avoid it, lest it affect your performance. Though I doubt you'll have enough free time on your hands to justify going to a school in a place you like, over one in a place you're not as enamored with.

And about the SO, I don't necessarily think being apart is such a bad thing. I would hate to have picked a school based on an SO, and then break up, leaving you stranded and with regret. As for the time apart, the long distance serves as a good test. If you get through it, you can have confidence that there's a good chance you're compatible enough to last long term. If it doesn't work out, there's a good chance marriage wouldn't have lasted long term either (~52% divorce rate in the US now), and it's better to find out early than have to go through the pains of a divorce...

You double down a lot in blackjack, don't you?

[starstruck393]

I understand your point about upwards of $200,000 in debt. However, is that the case here? What is BU is getting close to free? You are well under the $200,000 threshold. Also, if she is wanting to have children or any other family planning issues need to be included. Are you wanting to take time off when you start having kids or just work right through? These are tough issues for a woman but one's that need to be addressed when looking at how you are going to pay this money off.

While close to free would change things, I can't see her getting any more than $75-$90k, going off LSN. Maybe even $60k; it's getting late to give out money if she hasn't gotten an offer already...

[starstruck393]

I understand how scary that debt can be, but I think looking at $200k vs $275k pushes it even farther toward Michigan than considering $100k vs. $180k. When you're talking $200k plus in debt, you're going to need a biglaw-salary job in order to pay it back on your own. You better hope you do really well out of BU if you choose that path, because if you can't get a really high salaried job you'll be in real trouble. I think the security Michigan offers, with much better job prospects, and LRAP to fall back on, makes it just about too good to turn down.

Of course you need to take other things into account. If you absolutely won't be happy at a school, you should probably avoid it, lest it affect your performance. Though I doubt you'll have enough free time on your hands to justify going to a school in a place you like, over one in a place you're not as enamored with.

And about the SO, I don't necessarily think being apart is such a bad thing. I would hate to have picked a school based on an SO, and then break up, leaving you stranded and with regret. As for the time apart, the long distance serves as a good test. If you get through it, you can have confidence that there's a good chance you're compatible enough to last long term. If it doesn't work out, there's a good chance marriage wouldn't have lasted long term either (~52% divorce rate in the US now), and it's better to find out early than have to go through the pains of a divorce...

You double down a lot in blackjack, don't you?

[dakatz]

Just to add on to my last post. So much of what I read on here goes directly against what I hear when I talk to numerous lawyers themselves. While I am not located in NYC, DC, Boston, etc. I have come to know many men and women in the profession that are quite successful with degrees from "lesser schools" (top 30-40). They enjoy what they are doing and are quite comfortable. Perhaps this is because they never dreamed of the NYC associate making +$150,000 right out. But that comes with strings attached to (some of which are soul sucking). Anyways, I digress.

Know what is important to you and value that more than what you hear from kids on here. Build relationships with attorneys where you live. Ask their advice. Gather info and make a decision you are comfortable with.

So true. I told a few lawyers I know (some in big firms, some are solos, some in companies, etc) and not one single one recommended picking the full price T-14 over a reputable T25 or T30 that gives me a bunch of money. When I told them the cost of going to a T 14 at full price, they said it is crazy (A few of them went to T14 schools themselves, but none paid full price, except one who went to Harvard, and he still regrets going). We are so wide-eyed on this forum and have no conception of what debt is like. I made a mention of 200K debt and jaws his the floor and these lawyers gasped as they said, "you can't possibly be considering such stupidity, can you?" So I think that pretty much sums up where most lawyers (at least the ones I know) stand on the matter. Its not like you are comparing some TTT regional school to Michigan. BU is highly reputable, especially in New England, and there seem to be a bunch of factors in your situation that justify picking it.

[awesomepossum]

It depends where you're talking about. How many people living in NYC or Boston do you think are at least 200K in debt considering mortgages, student loans etc... probably a lot. Iowa...probably fewer.

If you're going to be in debt for 200K but have reasonable access to a career with 165K+ then it's not so bad. It sure is a lot of debt, there's no question....but it depends on what kind of opportunities you're gaining access to.

If you're making less money, there are LRAP opportunities.

I guess one question is whether BU is offering a full ride or say 15K a year or something like that. It's not clear from the OP's post that the difference is really 200K.

Here is one other thing...at a lot of lesser schools, people aren't getting jobs at all. I would rather have debt and the opportunity to pay for it than less debt and no job.

[agentzer0]

Just to add on to my last post. So much of what I read on here goes directly against what I hear when I talk to numerous lawyers themselves. While I am not located in NYC, DC, Boston, etc. I have come to know many men and women in the profession that are quite successful with degrees from "lesser schools" (top 30-40). They enjoy what they are doing and are quite comfortable. Perhaps this is because they never dreamed of the NYC associate making +$150,000 right out. But that comes with strings attached to (some of which are soul sucking). Anyways, I digress.

Know what is important to you and value that more than what you hear from kids on here. Build relationships with attorneys where you live. Ask their advice. Gather info and make a decision you are comfortable with.

So true. I told a few lawyers I know (some in big firms, some are solos, some in companies, etc) and not one single one recommended picking the full price T-14 over a reputable T25 or T30 that gives me a bunch of money. When I told them the cost of going to a T 14 at full price, they said it is crazy (A few of them went to T14 schools themselves, but none paid full price, except one who went to Harvard, and he still regrets going). We are so wide-eyed on this forum and have no conception of what debt is like. I made a mention of 200K debt and jaws his the floor and these lawyers gasped as they said, "you can't possibly be considering such stupidity, can you?" So I think that pretty much sums up where most lawyers (at least the ones I know) stand on the matter. Its not like you are comparing some TTT regional school to Michigan. BU is highly reputable, especially in New England, and there seem to be a bunch of factors in your situation that justify picking it.

Lawyers who graduated from law school 10 or 20 years ago are not the best source for information on current law school x versus law school y decisions for several reasons. As you pointed out, they don't often don't know how much law school costs these days.... BUT, if this is the case, they also likely haven't kept up with first year associate salaries these days. Their information, while seemingly apropos, is often outdated. Also, a t30 law graduate with a solid career (established during happier economic times) is just not going to acknowledge how hard it might be to find a job from their alma mater in today's economy because a) they won't have any way of knowing, and b) their own experience will color their views.