Tulane Admiralty / Maritime Law Forum

[Lomax]

I know that choices in certifications and course offerings should normally not play much of a role in how one makes a decision on where to attend law school, but I am increasingly intrigued by the specialized field of admiralty/maritime law and have noticed that the only relatively high-ranking law school that offers a substantial program in it (rather than just a single course or two, as is often the case) is Tulane. I have absolutely no interest in living in New Orleans or anywhere else in Louisiana (I would very much hope to work/practice in California or Florida, or possibly even overseas), but figure I might like working in admiralty/maritime law quite a bit more than working in another field.

Do you know anything about admiralty/maritime law, or about Tulane, or, more specifically, about Tulane's program in admiralty/maritime law? Would going through Tulane's course and doing well enough grade-wise practically assure me a job in the field? Would I then also have a very good chance at getting to Florida or California? Or might it be the case that going through an admiralty course (Tulane's) simply for the sake of doing so is not preferable to attending a regional powerhouse law school (UF or UCLA), taking the one admiralty course on offer, and trying to get into admiralty through personal efforts and connections while being assured, in any case, of some job in a choice state?

[S de Garmeaux]

University of San Francisco is all about maritime law

i think they have 1 of the only 2 reviews on it

[nianlong]

Tulane is often regarded as one of the best institutions in the world to study all things maritime law. There are somewhere around a dozen or so maritime course offerings, world-class professors in the field, and a very highly regarded maritime law journal that was cited by SCOTUS just last year. You should also know that there are a substantial number of students here from California and Florida, some of whom are looking to go back. Historically, many have been able to do so. But if you don't want to live in New Orleans, you probably would not enjoy being here for three years. It's a different kind of city that some people love and other people hate. But make sure you visit before writing it off completely. Last year, they up to $300 to allow admitted students to visit. For those of us who enjoy living here, students tend to have interests in maritime or internationally-related employment. Tulane offers lots of comparative law (full common and civil course offerings) and admiralty options that other schools don't and, as you pointed out, certificate programs that allow you to highlight the curriculum as a resume line.

[Grizz]

Admiralty as a field isn't doing so hot. As a family friend and admiralty lawyer recently put it, "ships just don't crash into each other that often any more."

[slowmo2385]

Say one's aspiration was Navy JAG... Would this specialization be any sort of benefit? Or is it mainly concerned with commerce and the like?

[nianlong]

Navy JAG actively recruit here, but I don't know if that is at all correlated with the maritime rep. Couldn't hurt, but I would think Coast Guard JAG would be more relevant.

Yeah, I think ships crashing into each other is a big part of the field. One of the leading maritime scholars here was my Torts professor last fall. I gather that fault liability is an important aspect of admiralty law but the rules are different out on the high seas.

[Oban]

Maine law has a maritime journal. Coast Guard JAG recruits there.

[Grizz]

Maine law has a maritime journal. Coast Guard JAG recruits there.

You probably shouldn't go to Maine unless you plan on staying there.

[Lomax]

University of San Francisco is all about maritime law

i think they have 1 of the only 2 reviews on it

Yes. However, SF Law is ranked 98, has to compete with a bunch of schools for Bay Area jobs, and had only 54% of graduates from its class of 2007 reporting a median private sector salary of $93,000 in one of the most expensive places to live in the country. Seems like a risky proposition - risky enough to make me think it a poor choice regardless of the fact that I like the Bay Area and am interested in maritime law.

You should also know that there are a substantial number of students here from California and Florida, some of whom are looking to go back. Historically, many have been able to do so.

But how difficult is/has it been for those Tulane graduates to make it into Florida and/or California?

Tulane offers lots of comparative law (full common and civil course offerings) and admiralty options that other schools don't and, as you pointed out, certificate programs that allow you to highlight the curriculum as a resume line.

But how much purchase does one get out of highlighting the curriculum as a resume line? I figure that doing so might benefit one more in admiralty/maritime law given the seemingly extra-specialized and obscure nature of the field, but I know little about this and could easily be wrong.

Another important question that has yet to be answered is how necessary is having the specialized curriculum in terms of breaking into the area of practice?

As for New Orleans - given the chance, I will certainly take the opportunity to visit. I could bear three years living in a less-than-ideal location, so the school's location in itself is not an issue for me. However, like I said, I would by no means want to stay in that area after law school.

Admiralty as a field isn't doing so hot. As a family friend and admiralty lawyer recently put it, "ships just don't crash into each other that often any more."

As I understand it, admiralty/maritime law involves practically anything legal related to boats and shipping at sea. There are fewer ship collisions and groundings, but there are still many accidents at sea, mishandlings of cargo and property, incidents on cruises, etc. However, the point you bring up is definitely one to consider. Even so, there seems to be a healthy number of practicing admiralty/maritime attorneys at the moment, which would seem to indicate that there is still some demand.

[Grizz]

But how difficult is/has it been for those Tulane graduates to make it into Florida and/or California?

As I understand it, admiralty/maritime law involves practically anything legal related to boats and shipping at sea. There are fewer ship collisions and groundings, but there are still many accidents at sea, mishandlings of cargo and property, incidents on cruises, etc. However, the point you bring up is definitely one to consider. Even so, there seems to be a healthy number of practicing admiralty/maritime attorneys at the moment, which would seem to indicate that there is still some demand.

In terms of admiralty law moving to Florida to practice admiralty law, I think it would be difficult, but not insurmountable. Tulane is fairly well respected and ranked higher than the FL schools, but the FL market is dominated by UF, and to a lesser extend FSU and Miami grads (mainly in Miami). If you went to Tulane, I would suggest making law review and being top of your class to increase portability to FL. Keep in mind if you want to do admiralty you're going to want to probably end up living in Tampa, Jacksonville, or Miami, in all likelihood, so if you can't do that for whatever reason, you probably shouldn't consider practicing in FL.

Also, keep in mind that at sticker, Tulane will run you what, about $40,000 tuition per year? Add expenses? You could be $180K in debt, then be stuck in a field which some view as stagnant. Though I know maritime isn't just ships crashing into each other, and there is definitely still a need, it's just too specialized a field to be able to make enough money right away to pay back large student loans. You would probably have to do some other type of law as well as admiralty.

[Lomax]

In terms of admiralty law moving to Florida to practice admiralty law, I think it would be difficult, but not insurmountable. Tulane is fairly well respected and ranked higher than the FL schools, but the FL market is dominated by UF, and to a lesser extend FSU and Miami grads (mainly in Miami). If you went to Tulane, I would suggest making law review and being top of your class to increase portability to FL. Keep in mind if you want to do admiralty you're going to want to probably end up living in Tampa, Jacksonville, or Miami, in all likelihood, so if you can't do that for whatever reason, you probably shouldn't consider practicing in FL.

If I would have to do exceptionally well in law school to be sure of securing a job in Florida or California by going to Tulane, even with its superb admiralty/maritime law program, then I would not want to go there.

Also, keep in mind that at sticker, Tulane will run you what, about $40,000 tuition per year? Add expenses? You could be $180K in debt, then be stuck in a field which some view as stagnant. Though I know maritime isn't just ships crashing into each other, and there is definitely still a need, it's just too specialized a field to be able to make enough money right away to pay back large student loans. You would probably have to do some other type of law as well as admiralty.

I figure that my chances of receiving a significant scholarship offer from Tulane are good, and I would not be forced to take loans even at sticker. On the other hand, the University of Florida would be very cheap for me, and saving money is never a bad thing. I have noticed that there are some admiralty/maritime lawyers who are UF alumni, so it would seem that, at the very least, UF's absence of an admiralty/maritime program would not close off the option of entering the field to me completely. Having to prioritize access to the area of practice and the location where I am to practice, I would put the latter ahead in a heartbeat - especially when the former might not benefit me financially as much as I would hope.

All things considered, it seems so far as though the University of Florida might be the better option in my case after all.

[Grizz]

If I would have to do exceptionally well in law school to be sure of securing a job in Florida or California by going to Tulane, even with its superb admiralty/maritime law program, then I would not want to go there.

I have noticed that there are some admiralty/maritime lawyers who are UF alumni, so it would seem that, at the very least, UF's absence of an admiralty/maritime program would not close off the option of entering the field to me completely. Having to prioritize access to the area of practice and the location where I am to practice, I would put the latter ahead in a heartbeat - especially when the former might not benefit me financially as much as I would hope.

All things considered, it seems so far as though the University of Florida might be the better option in my case after all.

I agree with your conclusion. If I were you, I would definitely go to UF. The cost and FL network put it ahead of Tulane if you want to stay in FL. And yes, it definitely will not close you off from admiralty. Maybe a second opinion though, I'm just a random dude on the internet.

[nianlong]

But how much purchase does one get out of highlighting the curriculum as a resume line? I figure that doing so might benefit one more in admiralty/maritime law given the seemingly extra-specialized and obscure nature of the field, but I know little about this and could easily be wrong.

Another important question that has yet to be answered is how necessary is having the specialized curriculum in terms of breaking into the area of practice?

The certificate itself is only going to help marginally, I would suspect. But that paired with working on the maritime law journal, studying under world class maritime scholars on a regular basis (and in Greece during the summer abroad program), and having immediate access to firms in the area that specialize in maritime law, things add up on a resume.

I don't know how necessary it is to take 10 maritime classes vs. 2 while you're in law school. But if that is what you're interested in then why wouldn't you want to. If you're going to fork out the money and spend three years of your life studying, study what you like. Of course, the same argument could be used in regard to where you go to school based on the location you'd like to live.

UF would be a good option for Florida, especially if you get in-state tuition. But Tulane would probably help you reach your goals as well if you can make decent grades and get some scholarship money. Seems like either school has its clear benefits and risks.

[Lomax]

Thanks, nianlong - that helps a lot, and you've made some good points there. I think that I will have to choose UF over Tulane given my prioritization of location over area of practice. Should I not do as well in law school as I would like, for whatever reason, I would rather be initially in a field not of my choosing in Florida than in Louisiana or elsewhere practicing admiralty/maritime law. Perhaps I could even endeavor to focus on admiralty/maritime law to a large enough extent to build a resume oriented towards it while at UF, regardless of its lack of admiralty/maritime law curriculum. Or perhaps I might find after my first year in law school that I would really like to practice another kind of law. Should that happen, I would much rather be at UF than at Tulane.

[heyguys]

imo, if you want to practice in FL or CA, outside of the T14 stick with schools in the region. Also, go to a school where you can get a scholly--in this economy, anything below CCN is honestly a risky proposition depending on how much debt you're incurring. If it were me, I would go to whatever the cheapest option I could go to would be, which would almost certainly not be Tulane. Don't worry about specialties yet--worry about getting a job.

[Lomax]

imo, if you want to practice in FL or CA, outside of the T14 stick with schools in the region. Also, go to a school where you can get a scholly--in this economy, anything below CCN is honestly a risky proposition depending on how much debt you're incurring. If it were me, I would go to whatever the cheapest option I could go to would be, which would almost certainly not be Tulane. Don't worry about specialties yet--worry about getting a job.

Honestly, I would not be incurring debt under any circumstance, but UF would be very cheap for me to attend. In any case, yours would seem to be sensible advice.

[nianlong]

Perhaps I could even endeavor to focus on admiralty/maritime law to a large enough extent to build a resume oriented towards it while at UF, regardless of its lack of admiralty/maritime law curriculum.

Yeah, you certainly can. UF seems like a fine choice.

I have to disagree with the other poster about not worrying about specializing. You absolutely should make getting a well-rounded education and a good first job one of your primary goals, but don't miss out on the opportunity to study the subject matter that interests you. Some people choose courses based on generous curves of particular professors or what might look good on a resume which should be considered to an extent, but don't sacrifice the chance to study what you like. When will you ever have that chance again?

[Aberzombie1892]

I know that choices in certifications and course offerings should normally not play much of a role in how one makes a decision on where to attend law school, but I am increasingly intrigued by the specialized field of admiralty/maritime law and have noticed that the only relatively high-ranking law school that offers a substantial program in it (rather than just a single course or two, as is often the case) is Tulane. I have absolutely no interest in living in New Orleans or anywhere else in Louisiana (I would very much hope to work/practice in California or Florida, or possibly even overseas), but figure I might like working in admiralty/maritime law quite a bit more than working in another field.

Do you know anything about admiralty/maritime law, or about Tulane, or, more specifically, about Tulane's program in admiralty/maritime law? Would going through Tulane's course and doing well enough grade-wise practically assure me a job in the field? Would I then also have a very good chance at getting to Florida or California? Or might it be the case that going through an admiralty course (Tulane's) simply for the sake of doing so is not preferable to attending a regional powerhouse law school (UF or UCLA), taking the one admiralty course on offer, and trying to get into admiralty through personal efforts and connections while being assured, in any case, of some job in a choice state?

Tulane has the most comprehensive Admiralty/Maritime program in the world.

Aside from courses, there is also an externship available in the area with the Center for Seafarers' Rights in New York.

Admiralty is a relatively small but steady field. Given that Tulane is best in that particular field, only about 30 students in each graduating class receive the Maritime Law certificate.

Presumably if you:
1) Received the certificate
2) made good grades
3) spent your summers dealing with maritime/admiralty issues,

I'm pretty sure that you would be able to secure a position in that area.

Where would you want to work if you worked internationally?

[Lomax]

Tulane has the most comprehensive Admiralty/Maritime program in the world.

Aside from courses, there is also an externship available in the area with the Center for Seafarers' Rights in New York.

Admiralty is a relatively small but steady field. Given that Tulane is best in that particular field, only about 30 students in each graduating class receive the Maritime Law certificate.

Presumably if you:
1) Received the certificate
2) made good grades
3) spent your summers dealing with maritime/admiralty issues,

I'm pretty sure that you would be able to secure a position in that area.

Where would you want to work if you worked internationally?

My dream is to live and work in Singapore, actually. I lived there for a year and was in heaven. I noticed that the National University of Singapore's law school offers an LLM in maritime law. I figure that were I to get stuck into admiralty/maritime law stateside, then perhaps that masters program in Singapore could be my way into that market. If Tulane's program graduates so few students with that certificate, and is truly known to be the best in the world in the field, then perhaps it could fast track me into Singapore's program - or, as the case may be, it might be the only practical way available to me to get into Singapore's program. However, the Singapore thing could well fall through. Converting my JD to a British system degree would be a pain - possibly too much of one - and who knows if Singaporeans know that Tulane's admiralty/maritime law program is the best in the world. And then I have to consider that there is a difference between being able to secure a position in the area of admiralty/maritime law in America and being able to secure a position in that area where I want to live in America. Louisiana has the biggest port in America, and Tulane is located there. It would make sense for many, if not most of even the admiralty program's graduates to stay in the school's regional stronghold. I realize that some Tulane graduates venture out and get jobs with maritime firms in Florida and California. However, it still seems likely to be a risky proposition, especially in this economy.

I have to disagree with the other poster about not worrying about specializing. You absolutely should make getting a well-rounded education and a good first job one of your primary goals, but don't miss out on the opportunity to study the subject matter that interests you. Some people choose courses based on generous curves of particular professors or what might look good on a resume which should be considered to an extent, but don't sacrifice the chance to study what you like. When will you ever have that chance again?

Sensible advice, especially when one has to consider that taking classes to one's liking should automatically make one more involved with the coursework and inclined to get better grades.