Class of 2013 Employment Data Forum

[SLS_AMG]

I still don't see how jbagelboy got the numbers he did. If you compare Berkeley's ABA page with UVA's for example, it doesn't appear to be the case that the PI jobs are double-counted from school jobs? To me it looked like the 85% was the number before taking school-funded jobs into consideration, but maybe I'm wrong.

Berkeley's numbers may also be fucked buy the California job market. Seems like every California school is struggling with placement except for Stanford. You would think Berkeley would be immune, but it wouldn't be a stretch to think that the shitshow that is CA legal hiring is affecting the bottom of the class at B.

This is probably why. The California market isn't getting much better outside of lateral hiring. Plus a good chunk of New York firms don't do OCI there.

What firms are you talking about? Pretty much every major NYC firms does OCI at Berkeley. Debevoise was an exception for the last couple years, but Berkeley students still got jobs there and I believe they're coming back this year. Hell, even Wachtell comes to Berkeley's OCI (only school outside of HYSCCNP that they attend).

ETA: Berkeley's CDO revealed some numbers for last year's OCI as well. 58% of the current 2L class received at least 1 offer from EIW last year, but only 86% of the class participated. So a tad bit over 2/3 of the participants received offers from the EIW program (which is the big law + boutique OCI).

[JCougar]

That's fair, but I think Northwestern is probably a good enough school where people who strike out at OCI probably fare better than most. I think because so many people there have previous work experience. But also, do those numbers also consider that you guys have a big JD/MBA class and those people with an MBA/work experience have a big leg up on getting the few consulting gigs that are actually considered "good" from the "business" category? Seems like there were a lot of those from NW, but anecdotally, I know very few people who got consulting gigs from elsewhere.

The other thing is that I'm not sure about the "government" category. I think there are a decent number of government "fellowships" that are full time and I think considered "long term," but are unpaid, and yet don't qualify for school funding (at least at my school). I know a few people doing DA gigs that fell into this category. They don't get school funding, but they do get to make $0 monthly payments to PSLF that count toward their 120 payments because they're considered full-time and I don't think there's a limit on their tenure there, so it also counts as long-term. I think some agencies in DC also do this. I've heard stories of the classes before me saying they knew people who were volunteering in DC for 2 years and still aren't getting paid.

[Tiago Splitter]

ETA: Berkeley's CDO revealed some numbers for last year's OCI as well. 58% of the current 2L class received at least 1 offer from EIW last year, but only 86% of the class participated. So a tad bit over 2/3 of the participants received offers from the EIW program (which is the big law + boutique OCI).

This doesn't seem very strong for a T-14.

To Rayiner's point, we have a way to get that kind of info and more in the form of the NALP report, but many schools won't release them. For example, in Columbia's class of 2011 11 people got jobs in firms of 26-50 attorneys. We typically call those bad outcomes, but all 11 reported salaries and the 25/50/75 numbers were 110/125/145 with a mean of 124. So at least here we can count most of these as good outcomes. Keep the pressure up on schools and the ABA to provide this info.

[worldtraveler]

Are schools separating out joint degrees/dual degrees? I feel like we should be in a whole different category. I can't think of a single joint degree person who was looking for a typical big law job and maybe 1 who wanted a clerkship.

[SLS_AMG]

ETA: Berkeley's CDO revealed some numbers for last year's OCI as well. 58% of the current 2L class received at least 1 offer from EIW last year, but only 86% of the class participated. So a tad bit over 2/3 of the participants received offers from the EIW program (which is the big law + boutique OCI).

This doesn't seem very strong for a T-14.

To Rayiner's point, we have a way to get that kind of info and more in the form of the NALP report, but many schools won't release them. For example, in Columbia's class of 2011 11 people got jobs in firms of 26-50 attorneys. We typically call those bad outcomes, but all 11 reported salaries and the 25/50/75 numbers were <a href="tel:110/125/145">110/125/145</a> with a mean of 124. So at least here we can count most of these as good outcomes. Keep the pressure up on schools and the ABA to provide this info.

2/3 of participants (i.e. People interested in large firms) getting offers from large firms doesn't seem strong? It's not Columbia level, but seems pretty strong to me.

[Tiago Splitter]

2/3 of participants (i.e. People interested in large firms) getting offers from large firms doesn't seem strong? It's not Columbia level, but seems pretty strong to me.

I guess the question is whether this really means "large firms." At our OCI a much higher percentage get offers (85% out of 92% participating) but the type of firm runs the gamut. If every firm at Berkeley's EIW is 100+ or an elite boutique then sure that number is pretty solid.

[Princetonlaw68]

ETA: Berkeley's CDO revealed some numbers for last year's OCI as well. 58% of the current 2L class received at least 1 offer from EIW last year, but only 86% of the class participated. So a tad bit over 2/3 of the participants received offers from the EIW program (which is the big law + boutique OCI).

This doesn't seem very strong for a T-14.

To Rayiner's point, we have a way to get that kind of info and more in the form of the NALP report, but many schools won't release them. For example, in Columbia's class of 2011 11 people got jobs in firms of 26-50 attorneys. We typically call those bad outcomes, but all 11 reported salaries and the 25/50/75 numbers were <a href="tel:110/125/145">110/125/145</a> with a mean of 124. So at least here we can count most of these as good outcomes. Keep the pressure up on schools and the ABA to provide this info.

2/3 of participants (i.e. People interested in large firms) getting offers from large firms doesn't seem strong? It's not Columbia level, but seems pretty strong to me.

People who don't participate in OCI can be bottom third people who think they can't get any offers. Not just people who never wanted big law.

[Princetonlaw68]

2/3 of participants (i.e. People interested in large firms) getting offers from large firms doesn't seem strong? It's not Columbia level, but seems pretty strong to me.

I guess the question is whether this really means "large firms." At our OCI a much higher percentage get offers (85% out of 92% participating) but the type of firm runs the gamut. If every firm at Berkeley's EIW is 100+ or an elite boutique then sure that number is pretty solid.

New thread idea for someone who carries more pull than me (Tiago Splitter, or someone else with similar rep): "Post your school's percentage of people who participate at OCI and get big law." Then compile all of the data in first post .

[SLS_AMG]

ETA: Berkeley's CDO revealed some numbers for last year's OCI as well. 58% of the current 2L class received at least 1 offer from EIW last year, but only 86% of the class participated. So a tad bit over 2/3 of the participants received offers from the EIW program (which is the big law + boutique OCI).

This doesn't seem very strong for a T-14.

To Rayiner's point, we have a way to get that kind of info and more in the form of the NALP report, but many schools won't release them. For example, in Columbia's class of 2011 11 people got jobs in firms of 26-50 attorneys. We typically call those bad outcomes, but all 11 reported salaries and the 25/50/75 numbers were <a href="tel:110/125/145">110/125/145</a> with a mean of 124. So at least here we can count most of these as good outcomes. Keep the pressure up on schools and the ABA to provide this info.

2/3 of participants (i.e. People interested in large firms) getting offers from large firms doesn't seem strong? It's not Columbia level, but seems pretty strong to me.

People who don't participate in OCI can be bottom third people who think they can't get any offers. Not just people who never wanted big law.

Not really. For one thing, you don't know your rank at Berkeley. For another, the system is 100% lottery. I don't think anyone would go through a year of law school wanting firm work and then stubbornly refuse to participate in the largest firm recruitment event.

[Princetonlaw68]

To Rayiner's point, we have a way to get that kind of info and more in the form of the NALP report, but many schools won't release them. For example, in Columbia's class of 2011 11 people got jobs in firms of 26-50 attorneys. We typically call those bad outcomes, but all 11 reported salaries and the 25/50/75 numbers were <a href="tel:110/125/145">110/125/145</a> with a mean of 124. So at least here we can count most of these as good outcomes. Keep the pressure up on schools and the ABA to provide this info.[/quote]

2/3 of participants (i.e. People interested in large firms) getting offers from large firms doesn't seem strong? It's not Columbia level, but seems pretty strong to me.[/quote]


People who don't participate in OCI can be bottom third people who think they can't get any offers. Not just people who never wanted big law.[/quote]

Not really. For one thing, you don't know your rank at Berkeley. For another, the system is 100% lottery. I don't think anyone would go through a year of law school wanting firm work and then stubbornly refuse to participate in the largest firm recruitment event.[/quote]


Maybe they see they're in the bottom X% and do some psychological gymnastics to convince themselves they were more of a PI warrior than a greedy big law lawyer anyway to save themselves the heartache

(And if they don't know their rank at Berkeley, replace that class rank with X gpa (one that is lower than all of what the believed minimums are for big law firms))

[Tiago Splitter]

Not really. For one thing, you don't know your rank at Berkeley. For another, the system is 100% lottery. I don't think anyone would go through a year of law school wanting firm work and then stubbornly refuse to participate in the largest firm recruitment event.

I generally agree with your second point, but people don't really pretend not to have any idea where they rank do they?

[Princetonlaw68]

Not really. For one thing, you don't know your rank at Berkeley. For another, the system is 100% lottery. I don't think anyone would go through a year of law school wanting firm work and then stubbornly refuse to participate in the largest firm recruitment event.

I generally agree with your second point, but people don't really pretend not to have any idea where they rank do they?

Just a side point, I generally agree as well. I think someone who was gunning for private firm work all along probably wouldn't sit out. I just think there's plenty of people with the "I just want some kind of good job out of this, but I'm not sure what" mentality, who inevitably would end up in big law if they had the grades for it. I think some of these people are the ones who might sit out of OCI upon the realization that they don't have the grades for it.

[worldtraveler]

Not really. For one thing, you don't know your rank at Berkeley. For another, the system is 100% lottery. I don't think anyone would go through a year of law school wanting firm work and then stubbornly refuse to participate in the largest firm recruitment event.

I generally agree with your second point, but people don't really pretend not to have any idea where they rank do they?

Just a side point, I generally agree as well. I think someone who was gunning for private firm work all along probably wouldn't sit out. I just think there's plenty of people with the "I just want some kind of good job out of this, but I'm not sure what" mentality, who inevitably would end up in big law if they had the grades for it. I think some of these people are the ones who might sit out of OCI upon the realization that they don't have the grades for it.

I've never heard of anyone sitting out because of grades and I'd be shocked if anyone actually does that. Considering like 1/4 to 1/3 of the class at Boalt has all P's after the first year anyway, it's not like there is an obvious bottom of the class. Everyone who sits out is someone who just adamantly does not want a firm and never did.

[Princetonlaw68]

Not really. For one thing, you don't know your rank at Berkeley. For another, the system is 100% lottery. I don't think anyone would go through a year of law school wanting firm work and then stubbornly refuse to participate in the largest firm recruitment event.

I generally agree with your second point, but people don't really pretend not to have any idea where they rank do they?

Just a side point, I generally agree as well. I think someone who was gunning for private firm work all along probably wouldn't sit out. I just think there's plenty of people with the "I just want some kind of good job out of this, but I'm not sure what" mentality, who inevitably would end up in big law if they had the grades for it. I think some of these people are the ones who might sit out of OCI upon the realization that they don't have the grades for it.

I've never heard of anyone sitting out because of grades and I'd be shocked if anyone actually does that. Considering like 1/4 to 1/3 of the class at Boalt has all P's after the first year anyway, it's not like there is an obvious bottom of the class. Everyone who sits out is someone who just adamantly does not want a firm and never did.

I'm somewhat just playing devil's advocate here, but you wouldn't hear about it, as that's the whole point of the mental gymnastics. They probably haven't even admitted it to themselves, let alone other people. It's a defense mechanism. All of this is conjecture, of course.

[20141023]

.

[lawschool22]

I've never heard of anyone sitting out because of grades and I'd be shocked if anyone actually does that. Considering like 1/4 to 1/3 of the class at Boalt has all P's after the first year anyway, it's not like there is an obvious bottom of the class. Everyone who sits out is someone who just adamantly does not want a firm and never did.

I am sure that there are some people with sour-grapes syndrome, but I don't think that they make up a statistically-significant portion of the people who don't do OCI. It seems like if you have bad grades and wanted biglaw, it'd be an even better reason to do OCI because it will be even harder to land screening interviews with a shitty transcript.

Yeah, I don't buy the argument that there is a significant number of people who want biglaw and also sit out of OCI.

[Princetonlaw68]

By the way, why all of the sudden are people willingly posting these percentage of people who participated in OCI numbers? I thought that's not allowed. If it is allowed, the numbers for all schools should be gathered promptly.

[worldtraveler]

By the way, why all of the sudden are people willingly posting these percentage of people who participated in OCI numbers? I thought that's not allowed. If it is allowed, the numbers for all schools should be gathered promptly.

[rayiner]

Yeah, nobody sits out OCI except people who really don't want firms. Indeed, its the opposite. PI folks will sometimes sign up for a couple of OCI interviews for the practice.

[banjo]

We don't have OCI offer rates for all schools, as far as I know. CLS is apparently 85% for c/o 2012 and 92% for c/o 2013. (Source: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 9#p6704514).

[Tiago Splitter]

By the way, why all of the sudden are people willingly posting these percentage of people who participated in OCI numbers? I thought that's not allowed. If it is allowed, the numbers for all schools should be gathered promptly.

Yeah the Michigan numbers posted earlier ITT came from a 0L who got them from an admitted student event.

[lawschool22]

Those numbers should be required to be disclosed. They're arguably some of the most important stats we could have for evaluating schools.

[OhScalia]

Vandy is 48% employment, not 45%.

[Princetonlaw68]

Those numbers should be required to be disclosed. They're arguably some of the most important stats we could have for evaluating schools.

I agree, but I could've sworn I read someone post before that students at every school are told these numbers, but are threatened with huge consequences if they were to decide to post them anywhere. Am I completely wrong?

If I am wrong, then why wouldn't we have most of the numbers by now? Surely there's at least one person from most (if not all) of the T14s who is a TLSer that would gladly post these stats for their respective schools. ???

[cannibal ox]

Vandy is 48% employment, not 45%.

Vanderbilt: 35.9 + 9.2 = 45.1%

Biglaw: (17 + 15 + 42 = 74) / 206 graduates = 35.9%

Fed clerk: 19 / 206 = 9.2%


Also the OP has Cornell's stats link for Vandy's page, here is the Vandy 2013 page.