Class of 2013 Employment Data Forum

[lhanvt13]

As is Texas.

http://www.utexas.edu/law/career/prospective/stats.html

42.33% = Fed Clerk + 100+
that seems real low to me. Is that better or worst than last year ?

[jenesaislaw]

As is Texas.

http://www.utexas.edu/law/career/prospective/stats.html

42.33% = Fed Clerk + 100+
that seems real low to me. Is that better or worst than last year ?

Better: http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/texas/trends/ (note 2013 data aren't on this yet, but will be Monday.)

[zman]

As is Texas.

http://www.utexas.edu/law/career/prospective/stats.html

42.33% = Fed Clerk + 100+
that seems real low to me. Is that better or worst than last year ?

It's their best year in a while.

[SLS_AMG]

Berkeley is finally up.

http://www.law.berkeley.edu/files/Emplo ... 3grads.pdf

Yup, 55.8%. Also, total FT-long term/JD @ 86%; without school funded, 78%.

Not a great showing IMO.

Where did you get the 78% number?

[zman]

Berkeley is finally up.

http://www.law.berkeley.edu/files/Emplo ... 3grads.pdf

Yup, 55.8%. Also, total FT-long term/JD @ 86%; without school funded, 78%.

Not a great showing IMO.

Where did you get the 78% number?

By Berkeley standards it's not very good.

[mt2165]

Hmm Cornell's numbers are relatively impressive, obv w the clerking number you're dealing with a really small sample size but still, not too shabby..

[timmyd]

Hook em. Not shabby numbers...34 fed clerks out of 304 students is not bad at all.

[LRGhost]

Hmm Cornell's numbers are relatively impressive, obv w the clerking number you're dealing with a really small sample size but still, not too shabby..

Cornell always does well. But stop looking at year to year numbers. Last year, Duke did really well at Big Law. This year, a little worse. Same with Penn. Are they worse schools now? No. Outside of YHSCCN and MG, you get pretty much the same number of people into Big Law/clerkships with slight variations.

[BigZuck]

As is Texas.

http://www.utexas.edu/law/career/prospective/stats.html

42.33% = Fed Clerk + 100+
that seems real low to me. Is that better or worst than last year ?

Why does that seem low to you? UT isn't a T14 but for a regional school those numbers are quite good and as a current student its encouraging to see they have increased greatly over the past two years.

[BigZuck]

Hook em. Not shabby numbers...34 fed clerks out of 304 students is not bad at all.

378 students doe

[loomstate]

Berkeley is finally up.

http://www.law.berkeley.edu/files/Emplo ... 3grads.pdf

Yup, 55.8%. Also, total FT-long term/JD @ 86%; without school funded, 78%.

Not a great showing IMO.

Where did you get the 78% number?

By Berkeley standards it's not very good.

one caveat that needs to be considered with berkeley's employment numbers - I imagine there are more students per percentage of class going into berkeley wanting on PI than maybe any other T14. also many gunning for GOV work (not sure which definition of PI we are using).

[Mack.Hambleton]

one caveat that needs to be considered with berkeley's employment numbers - I imagine there are more students per percentage of class going into berkeley wanting on PI than maybe any other T14. also many gunning for GOV work (not sure which definition of PI we are using).

yeah but people say the same thing for NYU, Michigan, GULC, UVA etc.

[JCougar]

Berkeley's numbers may also be fucked buy the California job market. Seems like every California school is struggling with placement except for Stanford. You would think Berkeley would be immune, but it wouldn't be a stretch to think that the shitshow that is CA legal hiring is affecting the bottom of the class at B.

[Tiago Splitter]

one caveat that needs to be considered with berkeley's employment numbers - I imagine there are more students per percentage of class going into berkeley wanting on PI than maybe any other T14. also many gunning for GOV work (not sure which definition of PI we are using).

yeah but people say the same thing for NYU, Michigan, GULC, UVA etc.

This chart:

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/composite.pdf

comes from before the recession (some say it's for class of 2005 but this can't be verified) and shows that Berkeley had the highest PI placement of the T-14, followed by Michigan and NYU.

[worldtraveler]

I can't find my own job on the Berkeley chart. I think I might be listed as one of the unemployed people. Oops.

[lecsa]

Berkeley is finally up.

http://www.law.berkeley.edu/files/Emplo ... 3grads.pdf

Yup, 55.8%. Also, total FT-long term/JD @ 86%; without school funded, 78%.

Not a great showing IMO.

Ouch I think it looks like the highest real unemployment rate in the top 14 except georgetown

[lecsa]

Berkeley's numbers may also be fucked buy the California job market. Seems like every California school is struggling with placement except for Stanford. You would think Berkeley would be immune, but it wouldn't be a stretch to think that the shitshow that is CA legal hiring is affecting the bottom of the class at B.

This is probably why. The California market isn't getting much better outside of lateral hiring. Plus a good chunk of New York firms don't do OCI there.

[JCougar]

Berkeley's numbers may also be fucked buy the California job market. Seems like every California school is struggling with placement except for Stanford. You would think Berkeley would be immune, but it wouldn't be a stretch to think that the shitshow that is CA legal hiring is affecting the bottom of the class at B.

This is probably why. The California market isn't getting much better outside of lateral hiring. Plus a good chunk of New York firms don't do OCI there.

But I also do give credence to B's PI focus. I think it's a little bit of both, to tell you the truth.

[lecsa]

one caveat that needs to be considered with berkeley's employment numbers - I imagine there are more students per percentage of class going into berkeley wanting on PI than maybe any other T14. also many gunning for GOV work (not sure which definition of PI we are using).

yeah but people say the same thing for NYU, Michigan, GULC, UVA etc.

This chart:

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/composite.pdf

comes from before the recession (some say it's for class of 2005 but this can't be verified) and shows that Berkeley had the highest PI placement of the T-14, followed by Michigan and NYU.

So either we give all these schools a break or none of them.

[Winston1984]

one caveat that needs to be considered with berkeley's employment numbers - I imagine there are more students per percentage of class going into berkeley wanting on PI than maybe any other T14. also many gunning for GOV work (not sure which definition of PI we are using).

yeah but people say the same thing for NYU, Michigan, GULC, UVA etc.

This chart:

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/composite.pdf

comes from before the recession (some say it's for class of 2005 but this can't be verified) and shows that Berkeley had the highest PI placement of the T-14, followed by Michigan and NYU.

So either we give all these schools a break or none of them.

Logic, at its finest.

[lecsa]

Berkeley's numbers may also be fucked buy the California job market. Seems like every California school is struggling with placement except for Stanford. You would think Berkeley would be immune, but it wouldn't be a stretch to think that the shitshow that is CA legal hiring is affecting the bottom of the class at B.

This is probably why. The California market isn't getting much better outside of lateral hiring. Plus a good chunk of New York firms don't do OCI there.

But I also do give credence to B's PI focus. I think it's a little bit of both, to tell you the truth.

Yeah but looking at the PI graph either we give all those schools (Berk, NYU, Mich) a break or none of them. Definitely think UVA is full of crap though......never been a PI school and now almost 20 percent of its grads are school funded.

[JCougar]

I would just like to add as a warning to all 0L's. The jobs you get outside the percentages here that are actually good jobs are few and far between. The amount of Government and Business jobs outside of these percentages that are actually desirable jobs only adds a handful of percentage points combined, unless you're talking about HYS or similar. And while there might be some decent jobs with firms of 2-99 lawyers, such as high end plaintiff's litigation, IP, etc., that number is also pretty low.

Bottom line is that no matter what school you go to, if you can't score a biglaw job from OCI, the competition for the few good jobs that remain is even more fierce than the competition to get an OCI job in the first place. It's a grind, and you're going to experience lots of stress, poverty, volunteering without pay, and probably a span of unemployment between graduation and 9 months later or beyond, etc.

This is why paying a lot for law school is stupid.

[mt2165]

I would just like to add as a warning to all 0L's. The jobs you get outside the percentages here that are actually good jobs are few and far between. The amount of Government and Business jobs outside of these percentages that are actually desirable jobs only adds a handful of percentage points combined, unless you're talking about HYS or similar. And while there might be some decent jobs with firms of 2-99 lawyers, such as plaintiff's litigation, IP, etc., that number is also pretty low.

Bottom line is that no matter what school you go to, if you can't score a biglaw job from OCI, the competition for the few good jobs that remain is even more fierce than the competition to get an OCI job in the first place. It's a grind, and you're going to experience lots of stress, poverty, volunteering without pay, and probably a span of unemployment between graduation and 9 months later or beyond, etc.

This is why paying a lot for law school is stupid.

JCougar you're making me sad but you're probably right.

[JCougar]

I would just like to add as a warning to all 0L's. The jobs you get outside the percentages here that are actually good jobs are few and far between. The amount of Government and Business jobs outside of these percentages that are actually desirable jobs only adds a handful of percentage points combined, unless you're talking about HYS or similar. And while there might be some decent jobs with firms of 2-99 lawyers, such as plaintiff's litigation, IP, etc., that number is also pretty low.

Bottom line is that no matter what school you go to, if you can't score a biglaw job from OCI, the competition for the few good jobs that remain is even more fierce than the competition to get an OCI job in the first place. It's a grind, and you're going to experience lots of stress, poverty, volunteering without pay, and probably a span of unemployment between graduation and 9 months later or beyond, etc.

This is why paying a lot for law school is stupid.

JCougar you're making me sad but you're probably right.

Not trying to make people sad...just trying to make people prepared for what lies ahead.

[rayiner]

I would just like to add as a warning to all 0L's. The jobs you get outside the percentages here that are actually good jobs are few and far between. The amount of Government and Business jobs outside of these percentages that are actually desirable jobs only adds a handful of percentage points combined, unless you're talking about HYS or similar. And while there might be some decent jobs with firms of 2-99 lawyers, such as high end plaintiff's litigation, IP, etc., that number is also pretty low.

Bottom line is that no matter what school you go to, if you can't score a biglaw job from OCI, the competition for the few good jobs that remain is even more fierce than the competition to get an OCI job in the first place. It's a grind, and you're going to experience lots of stress, poverty, volunteering without pay, and probably a span of unemployment between graduation and 9 months later or beyond, etc.

This is why paying a lot for law school is stupid.

I don't know if I believe this as much as I did back as a 0L, although I don't want to give 0L's false hope.

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/depts/c ... index.html.

NU's "100+ firms + clerks" number is 63%. But looking at the salary data (just reported salaries), it had 67% in jobs paying six figures, and 8% in federal clerkships (no federal clerkship pays six figures except after 3+ years of clerking). That's 75% total. What's that additional 12%? A little over half is JD-MBA's doing business jobs rather than law. The rest is people working at boutiques, particularly IP boutiques.

78 people reported a salary under $100k or did not report a salary. Another 16 were either unemployed or pursuing a graduate degree (the two groups do not overlap). That includes the 22 federal clerks, so netting that out you get 72 people or 25% of the class.

Out of those 72 people (these categories shouldn't overlap):
18 were employed in a legit, non-funded, full-time PI/gov gig
8 were employed in jobs making between $80-100k (better insurance-defense type jobs, and entry-level in-house)
16 were not employed
12 were employed by the school

That leaves 18 people who either did not report a salary or reported making sub-$80k but not working in PI/Govt.

Now you can use your judgment as to what outcomes you consider acceptable, but I'd count at least the non-funded PI/Gov folks (75th percentile reported salary was $48k, so it's not bottom of the barrel PI stuff). Including that, you have about 80% of the class either making six figures, doing a federal clerkship, or having a "real" PI gig.

And my experience with C/O 2012 is that there are decent outcomes in the 20% too. One of my friends did funded work for a year before landing a good PI gig. Another went from a state clerkship to a good state gov gig. (Both had wanted PI, and had foregone big law opportunities they certainly would have had). Another two landed ~$100k mid law gigs more than a year after graduation. In fact, I don't know anyone from C/O 2012 who has not found a reasonable law job now almost two years after graduation, although I'm sure they exist.

So my point is that there are more jobs than you might think outside of the 60-70% at big firms and federal clerkships. Maybe as much as 10-20% more. But that underscores the importance of keeping debt low. An $80k/year entry level in-house gig at HP is very reasonable if you only have $100k in debt.