Take the money and Run; YS - CCNH? Forum

[09042014]

How come CLS has more Biglaw + Gov + PI + Clerks than Harvard?

Are they all doing start ups?

[jbagelboy]

In a real way, that's the big flame. We're all proles, even partners at V5's. We scrub dishes for the capitalists.

twist:the capitalists went to hls:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyd_Blankfein

Yes, a couple of people snuck in from 30-40 years ago, back before corporate America standardized on the MBA.

there are plenty of recent hls grads who head investment companies (the vast majority of them started at either wachtell or cravath, for some reason).

this is to say nothing of the numerous, numerous entrepreneurs, and the international students who go back to their countries.

hell,a couple of current 2L's are making waves with their new start-up:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/ ... il-privacy

hls attracts some of the most accomplished and impressive individuals. the idea that the class at hls and northwestern/columbia are largely fungible is wildly inaccurate. of course watch someone come in with an anecdote about the mouth-breather he knows at hls in an attempt to dispute the larger point.

speaking of business, columbia law has the most grads in the Forbes 500 than any other law school. as others have pointed out, the interaction between financiers and the occasional attorney isn't exactly a harvard-specific thing

as far as law students entrepreneurship is concerned: while it's cool that you're so impressed with your classmates, to the limited extent they are involved in start-up activity relative to people in other fields, they are no moreso than other top law programs around the country. my UG has more successful startups just in the past couple years than harvard and columbia law schools combined

and no worries, you're definitely everyone's favorite mouth breather. I actually like and respect my friends at Harvard.

[Pulsar]

This thread has definitely delivered.

It's unfortunate that most of the conversation has been focused on Haaaahvahd, by far the TTT of HYS, though. The real issue is convincing all the snowflakes who get into Yale that their dreams are not worth $300k. I've found that a much harder conversation, esp because they are all PI save-the-world-types (at least they all think they are, anyway). As a rational person who just wants a six-figure salary I haven't had any personal experience with what happens to PI people at CCN and so don't know what to tell them.

[jbagelboy]

This thread has definitely delivered.

it just takes a decent troll or two

[achilles470]

This thread has definitely delivered.

It's unfortunate that most of the conversation has been focused on Haaaahvahd, by far the TTT of HYS, though. The real issue is convincing all the snowflakes that get into Yale that their dreams are not worth $300k. I've found that a much harder conversation, esp because they are all PI save-the-world-types (at least they all think they are, anyway). As a rational person who just wants a six-figure salary I haven't had any personal experience with what happens to PI people at CCN and so don't know what to tell them.

I'm in that boat and started a thread about it last week (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=228195). Thing is, I don't have a full-ride to a CCN - would you say the Butler is worth taking over YLS?

[jbagelboy]

This thread has definitely delivered.

It's unfortunate that most of the conversation has been focused on Haaaahvahd, by far the TTT of HYS, though. The real issue is convincing all the snowflakes that get into Yale that their dreams are not worth $300k. I've found that a much harder conversation, esp because they are all PI save-the-world-types (at least they all think they are, anyway). As a rational person who just wants a six-figure salary I haven't had any personal experience with what happens to PI people at CCN and so don't know what to tell them.

I'm in that boat and started a thread about it last week (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=228195). Thing is, I don't have a full-ride to a CCN - would you say the Butler is worth taking over YLS?

If your primary/only goal is NYC large firm work, and you have 0 aid at Yale and will be borrowing everything, then I'd take the Butler. If you have another more specific goal for your degree, or firm work or NYC isn't attractive to you, then I'd go to Yale.

[cotiger]

This thread has definitely delivered.

It's unfortunate that most of the conversation has been focused on Haaaahvahd, by far the TTT of HYS, though. The real issue is convincing all the snowflakes who get into Yale that their dreams are not worth $300k. I've found that a much harder conversation, esp because they are all PI save-the-world-types (at least they all think they are, anyway). As a rational person who just wants a six-figure salary I haven't had any personal experience with what happens to PI people at CCN and so don't know what to tell them.

Yale is a tougher conversation because it seems like a much higher percentage do actually get those unicorny jobs. The fact that they're unicorny, though, makes it much tougher to measure and thus get a good idea of likelihoods. Harvard, otoh, is an easier target bc it's significantly more of a biglaw factory.

[jbagelboy]

This thread has definitely delivered.

It's unfortunate that most of the conversation has been focused on Haaaahvahd, by far the TTT of HYS, though. The real issue is convincing all the snowflakes who get into Yale that their dreams are not worth $300k. I've found that a much harder conversation, esp because they are all PI save-the-world-types (at least they all think they are, anyway). As a rational person who just wants a six-figure salary I haven't had any personal experience with what happens to PI people at CCN and so don't know what to tell them.

Yale is a tougher conversation because it seems like a much higher percentage do actually get those unicorny jobs. The fact that they're unicorny, though, makes it much tougher to measure and thus get a good idea of likelihoods. Harvard, otoh, is an easier target bc it's significantly more of a biglaw factory.

don't summon the trolls bro

[cotiger]

This thread has definitely delivered.

It's unfortunate that most of the conversation has been focused on Haaaahvahd, by far the TTT of HYS, though. The real issue is convincing all the snowflakes who get into Yale that their dreams are not worth $300k. I've found that a much harder conversation, esp because they are all PI save-the-world-types (at least they all think they are, anyway). As a rational person who just wants a six-figure salary I haven't had any personal experience with what happens to PI people at CCN and so don't know what to tell them.

Yale is a tougher conversation because it seems like a much higher percentage do actually get those unicorny jobs. The fact that they're unicorny, though, makes it much tougher to measure and thus get a good idea of likelihoods. Harvard, otoh, is an easier target bc it's significantly more of a biglaw factory.

don't summon the trolls bro

my bad

[Blessedassurance]

Especially considering that it'd be much easier for a law graduate to pick up some coding skills and break into that space, than to break into more transitional entrepreneurial fields where not having a finance/business background would be an even greater liability.

it's not a great liability. do you have experience in entrepreneurship?

[Blessedassurance]

It's a huge liability if you want to pitch yourself as entrepreneurial, because by and large lawyers are exactly the opposite of entrepreneurial. They're tremendously risk averse. They break into heavily regulated industries a little bit, particularly finance, for the obvious reasons. In other industries, they just don't really have anything to offer. Legal research and writing skills are of very little use outside of the legal sector.

what supreme wisdom do you think they teach at business school? the school sends a signal. that's the point.

this is not entirely relevant but:

http://www.businessinsider.com/top-amer ... eos-2013-9

hls has produced more fortune 500 ceo's than columbia's business school. which is lulzy.

but yes, the vast majority of law students (especially outside hls and probably, stanford) lack the attributes to be successful at entrepreneurship, or the balls to even try. going to certain schools also helps for other purposes (you're already hinted at one example regarding raising venture capital) but there are numerous other instances.

[Theopliske8711]

but yes, the vast majority of law students (especially outside hls and probably, stanford) lack the attributes to be successful at entrepreneurship, or the balls to even try. going to certain schools also helps for other purposes (you're already hinted at one example regarding raising venture capital) but there are numerous other instances.

Being from an already wealthy family with fantastic connections also helps, I presume.

[rayiner]

Especially considering that it'd be much easier for a law graduate to pick up some coding skills and break into that space, than to break into more transitional entrepreneurial fields where not having a finance/business background would be an even greater liability.

it's not a great liability. do you have experience in entrepreneurship?

I worked for a startup (while going to college) from 2002 to 2007, and saw it grow from 3-4 people in a basement to 20-30 people. The company's new CEO is, in fact, a JD (from GULC). That doesn't change the fact that JD's are by and large extremely unusual in the business world, and that going into entrepreneurship is extremely rare for JD's.

If you want to be an entrepreneur, get a PhD or an MBA. A few JD's might wander into business here and there, and as far as law schools go, HLS might be the tallest midget on the field, but a business school will be much better in giving you the connections and skills to become an entrepreneur, and a PhD will give you expertise you can leverage into raising money and building a business.

[Blessedassurance]

and no worries, you're definitely everyone's favorite mouth breather. I actually like and respect my friends at Harvard.

weren't you crying a few pages ago about personal attacks?

[Blessedassurance]

Yale is a tougher conversation because it seems like a much higher percentage do actually get those unicorny jobs. The fact that they're unicorny, though, makes it much tougher to measure and thus get a good idea of likelihoods. Harvard, otoh, is an easier target bc it's significantly more of a biglaw factory.

i'm actually impressed that it took this long for someone to make the stupid assertion that yale has access to the "unicorny" job. i was however right in thinking you or the other dude was gonna be the one to make that stupid assertion.

why don't you provide as with examples of yale students getting unicorny jobs that are precluded to h and s students.

*waits for some gibberish about clerkships*

[Blessedassurance]

but yes, the vast majority of law students (especially outside hls and probably, stanford) lack the attributes to be successful at entrepreneurship, or the balls to even try. going to certain schools also helps for other purposes (you're already hinted at one example regarding raising venture capital) but there are numerous other instances.

Being from an already wealthy family with fantastic connections also helps, I presume.

good. you're getting the larger point.

[Crowing]

Little known fact:

Chicagos high murder rate is caused by U of C grads fighting over the 2-3 spots that Jenner Block gives to non HLS students.

Highly underrated post

[Blessedassurance]

Especially considering that it'd be much easier for a law graduate to pick up some coding skills and break into that space, than to break into more transitional entrepreneurial fields where not having a finance/business background would be an even greater liability.

it's not a great liability. do you have experience in entrepreneurship?

I worked for a startup (while going to college) from 2002 to 2007, and saw it grow from 3-4 people in a basement to 20-30 people. The company's new CEO is, in fact, a JD (from GULC). That doesn't change the fact that JD's are by and large extremely unusual in the industry, and that going into entrepreneurship is extremely rare for JD's.

why do you keep conflating (tech) start-ups and entrepreneurship. one is a small subset of the other. entrepreneurship/other interesting unicorny things are not rare at hls. that's what i've been saying.

yes, it's rare at columbia and chicago which is why they run around bragging they put 80% of their students into soulless offices in manhattan for the purpose of correcting commas and getting screamed at.

[SnakySalmon]

but yes, the vast majority of law students (especially outside hls and probably, stanford) lack the attributes to be successful at entrepreneurship, or the balls to even try. going to certain schools also helps for other purposes (you're already hinted at one example regarding raising venture capital) but there are numerous other instances.

Being from an already wealthy family with fantastic connections also helps, I presume.

good. you're getting the larger point.

I thought that the larger point what that HLS students were ubermensches who wander around raising millions of dollars on the strength of the school name alone, not that they're already rich so fuck it.

[emu42]

[Theopliske8711]

I think it's time to deploy nukes...

[rayiner]

Especially considering that it'd be much easier for a law graduate to pick up some coding skills and break into that space, than to break into more transitional entrepreneurial fields where not having a finance/business background would be an even greater liability.

it's not a great liability. do you have experience in entrepreneurship?

I worked for a startup (while going to college) from 2002 to 2007, and saw it grow from 3-4 people in a basement to 20-30 people. The company's new CEO is, in fact, a JD (from GULC). That doesn't change the fact that JD's are by and large extremely unusual in the industry, and that going into entrepreneurship is extremely rare for JD's.

why do you keep conflating (tech) start-ups and entrepreneurship. one is a small subset of the other. entrepreneurship/other interesting unicorny things are not rare at hls. that's what i've been saying.

yes, it's rare at columbia and chicago which is why they run around bragging they put 80% of their students into soulless offices in manhattan for the purpose of correcting commas and getting screamed at.

You asked me if I had experience in entrepreneurship. I have experience with a tech startup, which is certainly a subset of the overall field of entrepreneurship.

You didn't respond to my other point. Tech startups might not be the whole field of entrepreneurship, but they're what's hot right now, and they're the area where all the money is being handed out. Money in other sectors is pretty tight. That's why folks from GSB/HBS are flocking into that space right now. So why shouldn't I take the dearth of law graduates in that space as an indicator of the presence of law graduates in entrepreneurship as whole?

Also, 80% of HBS graduates who are employed in long-term, fill-time positions are at firms and clerkships, more or less identical to U of C or Columbia. You made the point before that it's not uncommon for HLS folks to do a stint in big law first before going on to bigger and better things, but you've provided absolutely no evidence for the proposition that HLS folks are any more successful in this endeavor than anyone else.

[jbagelboy]

Especially considering that it'd be much easier for a law graduate to pick up some coding skills and break into that space, than to break into more transitional entrepreneurial fields where not having a finance/business background would be an even greater liability.

it's not a great liability. do you have experience in entrepreneurship?

I worked for a startup (while going to college) from 2002 to 2007, and saw it grow from 3-4 people in a basement to 20-30 people. The company's new CEO is, in fact, a JD (from GULC). That doesn't change the fact that JD's are by and large extremely unusual in the industry, and that going into entrepreneurship is extremely rare for JD's.

why do you keep conflating (tech) start-ups and entrepreneurship. one is a small subset of the other. entrepreneurship/other interesting unicorny things are not rare at hls. that's what i've been saying.

yes, it's rare at columbia and chicago which is why they run around bragging they put 80% of their students into soulless offices in manhattan for the purpose of correcting commas and getting screamed at.

funny nearly 1/3 of my SA office this summer are harvard kiddos

tell me where you see all the entrepreneurs? business/industry on ABA?

http://www.lstscorereports.com/compare/ ... a/chicago/

I don't see a huge difference in what students do when they graduate from these three schools (regardless of the companies they ran as law students). and I'm not some 0L. on the margins, there are some very impressive students at HLS who get jobs that would be tougher to crack from CC, but this "all the underemployed harvard kids are actually just entrepreneurs " shtick is pretty unconvincing. you've been spending too much time with the cso?

[cotiger]

Yale is a tougher conversation because it seems like a much higher percentage do actually get those unicorny jobs. The fact that they're unicorny, though, makes it much tougher to measure and thus get a good idea of likelihoods. Harvard, otoh, is an easier target bc it's significantly more of a biglaw factory.

i'm actually impressed that it took this long for someone to make the stupid assertion that yale has access to the "unicorny" job. i was however right in thinking you or the other dude was gonna be the one to make that stupid assertion.

why don't you provide as with examples of yale students getting unicorny jobs that are precluded to h and s students.

*waits for some gibberish about clerkships*

Do you RC? I'm not making the claim that it is vastly different, just that there's enough evidence both anecdotally and in the data that they might be different and that makes it more difficult to accurately value. I have no idea the extent to which it's true. I personally think that most people should still take the money.

Harvard, otoh, is pretty obviously mostly a biglaw factory, so its value is far easier to pinpoint.

[Blessedassurance]

but yes, the vast majority of law students (especially outside hls and probably, stanford) lack the attributes to be successful at entrepreneurship, or the balls to even try. going to certain schools also helps for other purposes (you're already hinted at one example regarding raising venture capital) but there are numerous other instances.

Being from an already wealthy family with fantastic connections also helps, I presume.

good. you're getting the larger point.

I thought that the larger point what that HLS students were ubermensches who wander around raising millions of dollars on the strength of the school name alone, not that they're already rich so fuck it.

what's with this obsession with raising millions in venture capital? you don't need to raise millions to be an entrepreneur, and yes you can raise money on school name alone (of course, they need to believe in your product). there was this start-up dude who's executive summary revolved around the fact that he dropped out of princeton (well, it didn't revolve around it, but it featured prominently).