Class of 2013 Employment Data Forum

[JCougar]

Any school that doesn't have post grad funding shouldn't be claiming they support PI students. Or if their funding is terrible (aka Georgetown).

Yes, I have to agree. It's probably the #1 path to getting a PI job these days. Not #1 as in effectiveness, but #1 in raw number of jobs obtained. #1 in effectiveness is obviously going to a super-elite school.

I understand the rationale for PI funding, given the crisis in PI hiring. And it can be extremely effective. That said, it's also a system that's ripe for law schools to use as a means of gaming their employment numbers. Are, e.g., people at UVA, which employed 59 of 364 graduates (16.2%) so much more interested in public interest than people at Duke, which employed 11 of 241 (4.5%)?

We shouldn't discourage schools from offering these fellowships, but we have to report the numbers in a way that recognizes that these are usually second-choice jobs. I don't imagine a lot of people at UVA are taking a $30k/year fellowship when they have another public interest job as an option (median salary $47k/year, according to UVA).

I agree with this as well. In summary, it basically proves the sorry state of PI hiring these days (although I don't think it was ever good). Even people from the absolute top law schools aren't finding secure, full-time, paid positions straight out of law school. Like I said before, the percentage of these "fellowships" that actually turn into real jobs is probably inversely hyperbolic as a function of the school's rank. So for HYS, probably mostly lead to good jobs, but once you get toward the bottom of the T14 (Georgetown), I'll bet that percentage drops rapidly and it's much more of a rankings-gaming gimmick.

[LRGhost]

I agree with this as well. In summary, it basically proves the sorry state of PI hiring these days (although I don't think it was ever good). Even people from the absolute top law schools aren't finding secure, full-time, paid positions straight out of law school. Like I said before, the percentage of these "fellowships" that actually turn into real jobs is probably inversely hyperbolic as a function of the school's rank. So for HYS, probably mostly lead to good jobs, but once you get toward the bottom of the T14 (Georgetown), I'll bet that percentage drops rapidly and it's much more of a rankings-gaming gimmick.

It's better to say that no school should get a free pass on it, imo. It's really bad to assume that these turn into 'real jobs' because of school fellowship. If some firm or agency or whatever cannot afford to hire counsel, I wonder why after one year they can?

[worldtraveler]

I agree with this as well. In summary, it basically proves the sorry state of PI hiring these days (although I don't think it was ever good). Even people from the absolute top law schools aren't finding secure, full-time, paid positions straight out of law school. Like I said before, the percentage of these "fellowships" that actually turn into real jobs is probably inversely hyperbolic as a function of the school's rank. So for HYS, probably mostly lead to good jobs, but once you get toward the bottom of the T14 (Georgetown), I'll bet that percentage drops rapidly and it's much more of a rankings-gaming gimmick.

It's better to say that no school should get a free pass on it, imo. It's really bad to assume that these turn into 'real jobs' because of school fellowship. If some firm or agency or whatever cannot afford to hire counsel, I wonder why after one year they can?

The majority of people I know on school fellowships weren't kept on where they did the fellowship, but they were able to secure another desirable job. In a lot of PI jobs they just don't hire people straight out, but will with a year of experience. It's really the norm as a PI student to graduate unemployed, because unlike firms they don't hire before you have bar results and often actual experience.

[rpupkin]

It's better to say that no school should get a free pass on it, imo. It's really bad to assume that these turn into 'real jobs' because of school fellowship. If some firm or agency or whatever cannot afford to hire counsel, I wonder why after one year they can?

I think the idea is that the agency or organization has a year to evaluate a prospective attorney. Meanwhile, the fellow acquires some actual lawyer skills. Also, the fellow will (hopefully) have passed the bar and become licensed to practice law during the year, which will make them more hireable. I'm not saying that all (or most) of these grads get hired full time at the end of their fellowships, but there is a logic to it.

[rayiner]

I agree with this as well. In summary, it basically proves the sorry state of PI hiring these days (although I don't think it was ever good). Even people from the absolute top law schools aren't finding secure, full-time, paid positions straight out of law school. Like I said before, the percentage of these "fellowships" that actually turn into real jobs is probably inversely hyperbolic as a function of the school's rank. So for HYS, probably mostly lead to good jobs, but once you get toward the bottom of the T14 (Georgetown), I'll bet that percentage drops rapidly and it's much more of a rankings-gaming gimmick.

It's better to say that no school should get a free pass on it, imo. It's really bad to assume that these turn into 'real jobs' because of school fellowship. If some firm or agency or whatever cannot afford to hire counsel, I wonder why after one year they can?

The majority of people I know on school fellowships weren't kept on where they did the fellowship, but they were able to secure another desirable job. In a lot of PI jobs they just don't hire people straight out, but will with a year of experience. It's really the norm as a PI student to graduate unemployed, because unlike firms they don't hire before you have bar results and often actual experience.

I know at least two people in my class, one who graduated coif, that ultimately found good PI/government gigs but leaned on school funding for a year or more before they did.

[jenesaislaw]

What would really be useful is information about how many with school funding either find a new job within that year or are kept on where they are a fellow.

Been working on that...hopefully next year's data (class of 2014). Getting them on individual reports is a long shot, but at least if I can get access it'll be on LST.

[californiabeauar]

http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2 ... wships.htm

"A recent follow-up study of the Class of 2010 found post-fellowship employment information for 35 of the 40 fellows. All 35 are now employed in permanent, full-time positions — 32 as lawyers, two in jobs for which a J.D. was an advantage, and one in a position that did not require a law degree...."

UVA FTW

[09042014]

http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2 ... wships.htm

"A recent follow-up study of the Class of 2010 found post-fellowship employment information for 35 of the 40 fellows. All 35 are now employed in permanent, full-time positions — 32 as lawyers, two in jobs for which a J.D. was an advantage, and one in a position that did not require a law degree...."

UVA FTW

Because they found jobs after 4 years? That's a win? Sounds like bare minimum to me.

[Tiago Splitter]

http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2 ... wships.htm

"A recent follow-up study of the Class of 2010 found post-fellowship employment information for 35 of the 40 fellows. All 35 are now employed in permanent, full-time positions — 32 as lawyers, two in jobs for which a J.D. was an advantage, and one in a position that did not require a law degree...."

UVA FTW

This tells us almost nothing.

[SLS_AMG]

Any school that doesn't have post grad funding shouldn't be claiming they support PI students. Or if their funding is terrible (aka Georgetown).

Yes, I have to agree. It's probably the #1 path to getting a PI job these days. Not #1 as in effectiveness, but #1 in raw number of jobs obtained. #1 in effectiveness is obviously going to a super-elite school.

I understand the rationale for PI funding, given the crisis in PI hiring. And it can be extremely effective. That said, it's also a system that's ripe for law schools to use as a means of gaming their employment numbers. Are, e.g., people at UVA, which employed 59 of 364 graduates (16.2%) so much more interested in public interest than people at Duke, which employed 11 of 241 (4.5%)?

We shouldn't discourage schools from offering these fellowships, but we have to report the numbers in a way that recognizes that these are usually second-choice jobs. I don't imagine a lot of people at UVA are taking a $30k/year fellowship when they have another public interest job as an option (median salary $47k/year, according to UVA).

You're absolutely right regarding schools gaming the numbers. I'm sure that was a consideration for all of them. There's really no way to what schools have the most dedicated PI factions these days, but looking at historical data shows that Berkeley, NYU, Georgetown, and perhaps Michigan have sent the most to PI jobs over the years of the non-HYS schools. UVA, on the other hand, regularly sent fewer than 5% of their grads into PI before the incorporation of their school-funded program. Things can obviously change, but I do think that certain schools (particularly NYU and Berkeley) attract the PI-leaning students in larger numbers than others.

[JCougar]

Yeah, Berkeley really does belong in the CCN class when it comes to PI hiring.

I've never really seen UVA grads placed in prestigious PI. Nor Michigan. Very few Georgetown. But I have seen a lot of Berkeley. It's only anecdotal, but I've done a lot of research in this area.

[swampman]

You're absolutely right regarding schools gaming the numbers. I'm sure that was a consideration for all of them. There's really no way to what schools have the most dedicated PI factions these days, but looking at historical data shows that Berkeley, NYU, Georgetown, and perhaps Michigan have sent the most to PI jobs over the years of the non-HYS schools. UVA, on the other hand, regularly sent fewer than 5% of their grads into PI before the incorporation of their school-funded program. Things can obviously change, but I do think that certain schools (particularly NYU and Berkeley) attract the PI-leaning students in larger numbers than others.

People on here seem to confuse "gaming numbers" with "getting jobs for their students" a lot. UVA at this point in time is arguably a better school for public interest than Michigan and Georgetown based on PI funding, dedicated career center, individualized advising, clinics etc. Whether UVA was a good school for PI ten years ago is not really relevant, students who are interested in PI (yes, myself included) now have a very good reason to consider UVA. Yes, UVA has strengthened it's PI programs and offered fellowships in response to decreased Biglaw hiring. But if what that means is now most of the people at UVA who want Biglaw get it, and people who want PI (and those leftover people who get shut out of biglaw) now have a path to a PI job, what's wrong with that? UVA can't force firms to hire more of its students, so they're busting their ass to get their students in whatever jobs are out there in a rough economy, and people are ragging on them for "gaming the numbers." I don't get it.

Aaand that turned into a rant.

[swampman]

Any school that doesn't have post grad funding shouldn't be claiming they support PI students. Or if their funding is terrible (aka Georgetown).

Yes, I have to agree. It's probably the #1 path to getting a PI job these days. Not #1 as in effectiveness, but #1 in raw number of jobs obtained. #1 in effectiveness is obviously going to a super-elite school.

I understand the rationale for PI funding, given the crisis in PI hiring. And it can be extremely effective. That said, it's also a system that's ripe for law schools to use as a means of gaming their employment numbers. Are, e.g., people at UVA, which employed 59 of 364 graduates (16.2%) so much more interested in public interest than people at Duke, which employed 11 of 241 (4.5%)?

We shouldn't discourage schools from offering these fellowships, but we have to report the numbers in a way that recognizes that these are usually second-choice jobs. I don't imagine a lot of people at UVA are taking a $30k/year fellowship when they have another public interest job as an option (median salary $47k/year, according to UVA).

It may be that some people who would ideally prefer a public interest job to a firm job end up taking the firm job simply because they don't want to graduate unemployed and spend the time volunteering/applying post-bar until they land the job. A fellowship makes it easier to take the path they actually would prefer. Of course a fellowship is obviously worse than a normal long-term public interest position, but so few of those positions hire pre-graduation (especially outside of t6) that it's not really a meaningful comparison.

[JCougar]

people are ragging on them for "gaming the numbers." I don't get it.

They're gaming the numbers because they make the fellowships exactly long enough so that they count as long-term, full-time jobs, and not a day longer. And yet they're not real jobs, and you can't keep them if they don't turn into something permanent before the year is up.

[swampman]

people are ragging on them for "gaming the numbers." I don't get it.

They're gaming the numbers because they make the fellowships exactly long enough so that they count as long-term, full-time jobs, and not a day longer. And yet they're not real jobs, and you can't keep them if they don't turn into something permanent before the year is up.

Actually 3 months longer than it takes to count as a LTFT job.

[JCougar]

people are ragging on them for "gaming the numbers." I don't get it.

They're gaming the numbers because they make the fellowships exactly long enough so that they count as long-term, full-time jobs, and not a day longer. And yet they're not real jobs, and you can't keep them if they don't turn into something permanent before the year is up.

Actually 3 months longer than it takes to count as a LTFT job.

Since when did UVA start paying people for 15 months?

[20141023]

.

[swampman]

Since when did UVA start paying people for 15 months?

Sorry, not long term by ABA standards, but the rankings mainly consider how many are employed after 9 months. A few lower-ranked schools did offer school-funded positions, working in the library or something, that lasted 9 months clearly to "game the numbers." Obviously two+ years years would be better, but there are limits to funding.

[cotiger]

It almost seems like if something is prestigious enough, then its difficulty to acquire makes up for the fact that it is actually a short-term position.

It's similar to how a Yale acceptance is always above being subject to cost-benefit analysis.

[BigZuck]

It almost seems like if something is prestigious enough, then its difficulty to acquire makes up for the fact that it is actually a short-term position.

It's similar to how a Yale acceptance is always above being subject to cost-benefit analysis.

Oh

Snap

[jenesaislaw]

Since when did UVA start paying people for 15 months?

Sorry, not long term by ABA standards, but the rankings mainly consider how many are employed after 9 months. A few lower-ranked schools did offer school-funded positions, working in the library or something, that lasted 9 months clearly to "game the numbers." Obviously two+ years years would be better, but there are limits to funding.

You're confusing the definition of long-term with the measurement date. U.S. News, the ABA, NALP, and LST all use the exact same system.

[Tiago Splitter]

It almost seems like if something is prestigious enough, then its difficulty to acquire makes up for the fact that it is actually a short-term position.

It's similar to how a Yale acceptance is always above being subject to cost-benefit analysis.

(rejected by Yale)

If we stop calling clerkships long term then schools won't continue to care so much about their LTFT rate. Instead of increasing their school funded fellowships to two years or more, plenty of them would probably just scrap the program altogether.

[cotiger]

Berkeley is finally up.

http://www.law.berkeley.edu/files/Emplo ... 3grads.pdf

[cotiger]

As is Texas.

http://www.utexas.edu/law/career/prospective/stats.html

[jbagelboy]

Berkeley is finally up.

http://www.law.berkeley.edu/files/Emplo ... 3grads.pdf

Yup, 55.8%. Also, total FT-long term/JD @ 86%; without school funded, 78%.

Not a great showing IMO.