Take the money and Run; YS - CCNH? Forum

emu42 · Post by **emu42** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:55 am

NYSprague wrote:
emu42 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Yeah, this is an on-topic, so if you keep fucking around about meeting someone at HLS you'll get banned.
+1
She was talking to you.

forgot to apply /sarcasm tags

MistakenGenius · Post by **MistakenGenius** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:57 am

Post removed.

ph14 · Post by **ph14** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:58 am

soj wrote:
emu42 wrote:
soj wrote:are there still prospies somehow considering HYS sticker-$ over CCN $$$? any snowflakes intent on academia?
why are they snowflakes? you realize there have to be some academics to come out of hys, right? biglaw isn't a bad fallback option if it fails
i assume anyone contemplating legal academia is envisioning a tenure-track position, because adjunct positions pay basically nothing and have no job security. yet the sheer fortuity of everything that must go right to have a remote chance at tenure-track positions in this economy, let alone tenure, is so unlikely that it's ridiculous to consider seriously as a 0L who knows nothing about law. all of this when the market for legal academics is rightly and rapidly shrinking.

putting aside the infinitesimal chances, i wonder if 0Ls interested in legal academia have the faintest idea of what being a law professor is like other than that it pays very well for far fewer hours than biglaw. do they have a clear research agenda? any agenda? do they have any significant experience publishing in academia (as in an academically rigorous masters or phd program, not served as an undergrad research assistant)? do they know they won't hate teaching law students (though lord knows a law prof doesn't have to enjoy or be good at teaching), or the law? many law professors didn't decide to become law professors until well into or even after law school, and that's my point: it's difficult to know beforehand that it's a realistic or even desired career path. a pre-law school interest in legal academia is unlikely to coincide with a post-law school interest in legal academia, and unlikelier still to coincide with the credentials required to break into it.

prospects in academia should be a very marginal tiebreaker, not something that outweighs any significant amount of money.

Credited. It's always interesting to see 0Ls who have never read a law review article or attended one law school class talk about how they really want to be a legal academic.

A. Nony Mouse · Post by **A. Nony Mouse** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:02 am

MistakenGenius wrote:
emu42 wrote: meh, i got bashed for disagreeing with the tls aristocracy. rather than admit defeat and join in on the circle jerk, i decided to have a little fun on my way out

also i'm not a "he"
Emu, pretty sure they're addressing me. As to what I've done to be labeled a troll, that I'm not sure of, but some people are just humorless. I wouldn't worry about them. I liked your thoughts. See ya around. Back to topic guys.

No, actually, we're pretty much addressing emu.

And soj, that was very well put.

MistakenGenius · Post by **MistakenGenius** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:07 am

Post removed.

A. Nony Mouse · Post by **A. Nony Mouse** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:15 am

No problem, MG.

I think the thing with academia is that it seems the most familiar, especially to K-JDs. People who go to top law schools have gone through college and probably did really well, so they've spent a lot of time around college professors and in the academic environment and found it congenial. For a lot of people, they've probably spent more time around professors/academia than lawyers/law firms, so they think they know what it entails and that it seems like something that they might like. When I was teaching college I ran into this with undergrads who wanted to be professors in my field - they liked profs and the academic atmosphere from the student side of things, and didn't realize how different it is from the inside and what a prof's work is actually like.

(I don't mean this as an insult to anyone - it's not a stupid conclusion, it's just not always right.)

NYSprague · Post by **NYSprague** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:46 am

Re academia: Just wanted to again mention thefacultylounge blog as a good resource for current academic hiring including the loss of tenure track positions, for people who might be interested.

I highly recommend it for getting a sense of job postings.

Secondly, I wish we could get KB, now she works with Spivey, to comment on how often Harvard adcoms pay attention to TLS, if at all. I know other schools read relevant forum postings, I would love to know how they view a discussion of the debt load/ cost of the school. Quite probably they don't care, but the change in TLS views over the past few years is noticeable.

cotiger · Post by **cotiger** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:52 am

NYSprague wrote:Re academia: Just wanted to again mention thefacultylounge blog as a good resource for current academic hiring including the loss of tenure track positions, for people who might be interested.

I highly recommend it for getting a sense of job postings.

Secondly, I wish we could get KB, now she works with Spivey, to comment on how often Harvard adcoms pay attention to TLS, if at all. I know other schools read relevant forum postings, I would love to know how they view a discussion of the debt load/ cost of the school. Quite probably they don't care, but the change in TLS views over the past few years is noticeable.

They won't care until more than just a handful of people ditch them for non-YS and it affects their medians. TLS bitching may have gotten louder, but so far it hasn't translated into a significant change in 0L decisions. Most likely it just makes people who probably would've taken the money anyway feel better about doing so, and makes people who're chasing the 'stige more defensive/evasive about that desire.

emu42 · Post by **emu42** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:31 am

cotiger wrote:
NYSprague wrote:Re academia: Just wanted to again mention thefacultylounge blog as a good resource for current academic hiring including the loss of tenure track positions, for people who might be interested.

I highly recommend it for getting a sense of job postings.

Secondly, I wish we could get KB, now she works with Spivey, to comment on how often Harvard adcoms pay attention to TLS, if at all. I know other schools read relevant forum postings, I would love to know how they view a discussion of the debt load/ cost of the school. Quite probably they don't care, but the change in TLS views over the past few years is noticeable.
They won't care until more than just a handful of people ditch them for non-YS and it affects their medians. TLS bitching may have gotten louder, but so far it hasn't translated into a significant change in 0L decisions. Most likely it just makes people who probably would've taken the money anyway feel better about doing so, and makes people who're chasing the 'stige more defensive/evasive about that desire.

false dichotomy

Blessedassurance · Post by **Blessedassurance** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:45 am

rayiner wrote:In all your posts, you fail to tackle a basic issue, which is that there are a lot less unicorn jobs than you seem to think. If that weren't true, why are so many HYS grads working big law with the rest of us shmucks?

it's not uncommon for a lot of the hys grads who end up in "unicorn" positions (including academia) to start in biglaw.

patogordo · Post by **patogordo** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:52 am

Blessedassurance wrote:
rayiner wrote:In all your posts, you fail to tackle a basic issue, which is that there are a lot less unicorn jobs than you seem to think. If that weren't true, why are so many HYS grads working big law with the rest of us shmucks?
it's not uncommon for a lot of the hys grads who end up in "unicorn" positions (including academia) to start in biglaw.

exactly. i didn't see any CCN grads on the ballot last election.

Blessedassurance · Post by **Blessedassurance** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:12 am

Desert Fox wrote:Harvard has grades.

Harvard --> Normal conversion

DS ->A+

H -> A, A-
P -> B+,B
LP -> B-, c+

this is wrong actually, but okay.

Blessedassurance · Post by **Blessedassurance** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:22 am

jbagelboy wrote:
anyriotgirl wrote:
quijotesca1011 wrote:
yeah, but at least in terms of HY that's their policy for undergrad as well (I think S also?) … they don't do merit money and I don't think they are likely to change that any time soon.
the need based aid at HY is super generous at the undergrad level though, and tied to an ivy-wide policy, so that's not really a fair comparison.
No top undergrads do merit based anymore ASAIK. largely because everyone that goes there is pretty ridiculous already, and also because they need to provide for 100% need. undergrad is more competitive than law school admissions-wise, and schools aren't straggling to find people to attend and increase their admission stats - schools like Columbia, Stanford, Princeton have 5-6% acceptance rates.

lol at throwing columbia in there like a cancerous tumor and hoping nobody'd notice while neglecting to put in H, which is universally #1. just lol. how was the school of general studies?

Seriously though, how exactly did it go down with you and harvard? why do you think you were fucked out of a harvard acceptance when you were probably also rejected at stanford (who take in people with the lowest scores out of the three and have the lowest acceptance rates among cross-admits)? is it because harvard is numbers based as opposed to the usual extra-curricular circle jerk that gives junior points for that two week trip to malawi that changed his life and made him more avant garde? why aren't you mad at yale when they are separating people over 200-word essays about some van gogh/wagner bullshit?

NYSprague · Post by **NYSprague** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:42 am

I'm regretting being part of this thread. It started out with decent advice for students reducing debt in a significant way.
I can't believe it devolved into comments about Columbia undergrad FFS.

Blessedassurance · Post by **Blessedassurance** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:10 am

KatyMarie wrote:Yeah, the point is probably exaggerated...but when I think about it, my friends who didn't go the college route are generally pretty happy working/raising kids with a retail/food service/whatever 20/25k job. On a day to day basis anyway, they seem a whole lot happier than a lot of the people on this site!

IAFG · Post by **IAFG** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:01 am

Blessedassurance wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Harvard has grades.

Harvard --> Normal conversion

DS ->A+

H -> A, A-
P -> B+,B
LP -> B-, c+
this is wrong actually, but okay.

?? Because LP is no longer mandatory?

SnakySalmon · Post by **SnakySalmon** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:11 am

IAFG wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Harvard has grades.

Harvard --> Normal conversion

DS ->A+

H -> A, A-
P -> B+,B
LP -> B-, c+
this is wrong actually, but okay.
?? Because LP is no longer mandatory?

I believe DS is also greater than an A+ because A+ = either 4.5 or 4.33, while DS =5.0 for purposes of honors.

IAFG · Post by **IAFG** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:34 am

SnakySalmon wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Harvard has grades.

Harvard --> Normal conversion

DS ->A+

H -> A, A-
P -> B+,B
LP -> B-, c+
this is wrong actually, but okay.
?? Because LP is no longer mandatory?
I believe DS is also greater than an A+ because A+ = either 4.5 or 4.33, while DS =5.0 for purposes of honors.

I doubt that employers give a shit about that, which is the issue here. They develop a familiarity with the grades which are as important as they ever were.

Bildungsroman · Post by **Bildungsroman** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:17 am

SnakySalmon wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Harvard has grades.

Harvard --> Normal conversion

DS ->A+

H -> A, A-
P -> B+,B
LP -> B-, c+
this is wrong actually, but okay.
?? Because LP is no longer mandatory?
I believe DS is also greater than an A+ because A+ = either 4.5 or 4.33, while DS =5.0 for purposes of honors.

I assume you own an amplifier with a volume knob that goes to 11.

SnakySalmon · Post by **SnakySalmon** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:22 am

Bildungsroman wrote: I assume you own an amplifier with a volume knob that goes to 11.

It's relevant because Harvard students are compared to students from other schools, and the school has basically used their new grading scale as an excuse for grade inflation.

Blessedassurance · Post by **Blessedassurance** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:24 am

IAFG wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Harvard has grades.

Harvard --> Normal conversion

DS ->A+

H -> A, A-
P -> B+,B
LP -> B-, c+
this is wrong actually, but okay.
?? Because LP is no longer mandatory?

H includes a portion of B+ etc. You need a certain number of students in the class for the curve. a professor can decide to give no LP's. LP is not really a B-minus. the idea that the current harvard grades easily translate is laughable and would defeat the purpose. nobody even has a clue what the median is since it depends on some variables.

why are we worried about hls grades? i assure they do not matter for generic biglaw. HLS students with 0-2 H's get the kinds of biglaw the chicago students will murder each other for (not that biglaw is some fucking price). you automatically get an interview at mckinsey at hls just by bidding on them (granted, it's hard to actually get an offer but that has nothing do with with grades since they never ever see your transcript).

IAFG · Post by **IAFG** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:28 am

Blessedassurance wrote: H includes a portion of B+ etc. You need a certain number of students in the class for the curve. a professor can decide to give no LP's. LP is not really a B-minus. the idea that the current harvard grades easily translate is laughable and would defeat the purpose. nobody even has a clue what the median is since it depends on some variables.

why are we worried about hls grades? i assure they do not matter for generic biglaw. HLS students with 0-2 H's get the kinds of biglaw the chicago students will murder each other for (not that biglaw is some fucking price). you automatically get an interview at mckinsey at hls just by bidding on them (granted, it's hard to actually get an offer but that has nothing do with with grades since they never ever see your transcript).

Unless you think even less of Chicago students than I do, that's an insane exaggeration. Grade-senstive firms are grade-sensitive at HLS, and firms know what's up. Now, if you've seen UChi students lose their minds for a spot at White & Case, where the cream certainly does not end up, my mistake.

Blessedassurance · Post by **Blessedassurance** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:34 am

IAFG wrote:Unless you think even less of Chicago students than I do, that's an insane exaggeration. Grade-senstive firms are grade-sensitive at HLS, and firms know what's up. Now, if you've seen UChi students lose their minds for a spot at White & Case, where the cream certainly does not end up, my mistake.

how would you know?

there are very, very, very few firms where grades will be an issue for an hls student (think wachtell, but not cravath). white & case gets like 1 or 2 hls students to go there each year. people actively avoid having to interview there. it is clear you have no idea what you're talking about and I don't even know why i'm wasting my time.

IAFG · Post by **IAFG** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:36 am

Blessedassurance wrote:
IAFG wrote:Unless you think even less of Chicago students than I do, that's an insane exaggeration. Grade-senstive firms are grade-sensitive at HLS, and firms know what's up. Now, if you've seen UChi students lose their minds for a spot at White & Case, where the cream certainly does not end up, my mistake.
how would you know?

there are very, very, very few firms where grades will be an issue for an hls student (think wachtell, but not cravath). white & case gets like 1 or 2 hls students to go there each year. people actively avoid having to interview there. it is clear you have no idea what you're talking about and I don't even know why i'm wasting my time.

IDK 5 years of knowing HLS students, their grades, and their outcomes?

Also, when I say "grade-selective" I am more talking DC/boutiques than NYC V5, where people with actually not that amazing grades can get jobs from the better part of the T14.

Bildungsroman · Post by **Bildungsroman** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:39 am

IAFG wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:
IAFG wrote:Unless you think even less of Chicago students than I do, that's an insane exaggeration. Grade-senstive firms are grade-sensitive at HLS, and firms know what's up. Now, if you've seen UChi students lose their minds for a spot at White & Case, where the cream certainly does not end up, my mistake.
how would you know?

there are very, very, very few firms where grades will be an issue for an hls student (think wachtell, but not cravath). white & case gets like 1 or 2 hls students to go there each year. people actively avoid having to interview there. it is clear you have no idea what you're talking about and I don't even know why i'm wasting my time.
IDK 5 years of knowing HLS students, their grades, and their outcomes?

Grades don't matter for Harvard people except at Wachtell. That's why Harvard beats its peer schools so handily with its 100% employment rate.