Take the money and Run; YS - CCNH? Forum

[quijotesca1011]

Honestly, I think much of my irritation towards sticker-paying yhs prestige whores is due to the fact that because of them, yhs will never have to lower themselves to negotiating, and so I would never be able to justify myself actually going there.

I'm not entirely sure this would happen, given that law school tuition isn't off from most other professional graduate school tuition (and private undergrad isn't far behind), and it isn't as if HYS tuition is different than most other law schools… One would think something is going to happen because it's so out of control, but I don't know what or when that will be…

[cotiger]

Honestly, I think much of my irritation towards sticker-paying yhs prestige whores is due to the fact that because of them, yhs will never have to lower themselves to negotiating, and so I would never be able to justify myself actually going there.

I'm not entirely sure this would happen, given that law school tuition isn't off from most other professional graduate school tuition (and private undergrad isn't far behind), and it isn't as if HYS tuition is different than most other law schools… One would think something is going to happen because it's so out of control, but I don't know what or when that will be…

No, I mean that bc so many people are so eager to completely ignore cost and value, yhs doesn't have to compete with other schools on price in order to keep their numbers/rank. You can take a full-ride to CCN to them and they're like nope nope nope sticker instead of giving you a half-scholly or something.

[quijotesca1011]

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[dresden doll]

Yeah, keeping it need-based doesn't strike me as all that shitty. This is likely why I knew more than a few people who didn't get that much more at CCN than HYS was offering them.

[anyriotgirl]

Honestly, I think much of my irritation towards sticker-paying yhs prestige whores is due to the fact that because of them, yhs will never have to lower themselves to negotiating, and so I would never be able to justify myself actually going there.

I'm not entirely sure this would happen, given that law school tuition isn't off from most other professional graduate school tuition (and private undergrad isn't far behind), and it isn't as if HYS tuition is different than most other law schools… One would think something is going to happen because it's so out of control, but I don't know what or when that will be…

No, I mean that bc so many people are so eager to completely ignore cost and value, yhs doesn't have to compete with other schools on price in order to keep their numbers/rank. You can take a full-ride to CCN to them and they're like nope nope nope sticker instead of giving you a half-scholly or something.

yeah, but at least in terms of HY that's their policy for undergrad as well (I think S also?) … they don't do merit money and I don't think they are likely to change that any time soon.

the need based aid at HY is super generous at the undergrad level though, and tied to an ivy-wide policy, so that's not really a fair comparison.

[sublime]

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[quijotesca1011]

the need based aid at HY is super generous at the undergrad level though, and tied to an ivy-wide policy, so that's not really a fair comparison.

I think that it's a fair comparison insofar as the premises on which the policies are based are similar in a few different ways…

I think part of it is about directly the most amount of scholarship money to those who financially need it the most, which I think is fair. (Of course I wish it were more generous, trust me… I also wish it was less tied to parental finances, but I do think that the premise is fair).

And I think there's also some truth to the fact that it would be hard to distinguish among admits to determine who gets a scholarship. For CCN it's pretty numbers based and arguably geared towards grabbing high LSATs. For HYS it'd be harder to do that because the medians are already pretty up there.

[Pulsar]

I could see screening out super-rich people from aid. But otherwise need-based aid makes little sense imo. When nearly everyone is going to be six figures in the red after graduation, then nearly everyone is needy. Distinguishing between the kid whose family makes $40k or $120k is flame.

[sublime]

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[quijotesca1011]

I could see screening out super-rich people from aid. But otherwise need-based aid makes little sense imo. When nearly everyone is going to be six figures in the red after graduation, then nearly everyone is needy. Distinguishing between the kid whose family makes $40k or $120k is flame.

As I've said, it doesn't help me (as I've noted I fall in that place where I probably won't get any grant aid but am hoping not to have to ask my parents for much help) BUT I recognize the fact that my parents are much more in the position to help me if something should terribly go wrong and I really can't repay my debt than someone whose parents make $40K for example. And I am sure they will be able to help me in terms of smaller COL things throughout my studies in ways that a lot of other families can't. And so as much as it may seem arbitrary, I don't think it is.

[Pulsar]

I could see screening out super-rich people from aid. But otherwise need-based aid makes little sense imo. When nearly everyone is going to be six figures in the red after graduation, then nearly everyone is needy. Distinguishing between the kid whose family makes $40k or $120k is flame.

Yes, there are literally no relevant differences between the situations of those two. Great contribution.

Yeah, there aren't. Second kid still has to ask his/her family to take out a second mortgage to cover just a fraction of his/her tuition expenses. That's an absurd expectation. They both have "need" in any functional sense of the term.

We're not children anymore. You're still a dumbass though.

[cotiger]

Yeah, keeping it need-based doesn't strike me as all that shitty. This is likely why I knew more than a few people who didn't get that much more at CCN than HYS was offering them.

They could do both.. If most of the people whose cost differential between YHS and CCN was $60k+ or differential between YHS and T14 was $100k+ chose the lower ranked school, medians would begin to fall and I bet you'd see them become much more amenable to negotiation.

In the ideal system, yeah, pure need-based is the way to go. But my understanding starts to break down when the sticker price gets so high. It'd be really great if our venerable, esteemed, prestigious, non-profit institutions of higher learning with $30b endowments stopped demanding that broke 25 year olds go $300k into debt just because their parents' combined income level in their peak earning years hits the $150k mark.

[sublime]

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[quijotesca1011]

I could see screening out super-rich people from aid. But otherwise need-based aid makes little sense imo. When nearly everyone is going to be six figures in the red after graduation, then nearly everyone is needy. Distinguishing between the kid whose family makes $40k or $120k is flame.

Yes, there are literally no relevant differences between the situations of those two. Great contribution.

Yeah, there aren't. Second kid still has to ask his/her family to take out a second mortgage to cover just a fraction of his/her tuition expenses. That's an absurd expectation. They both have "need" in any functional sense of the term.

We're not children anymore. You're still a dumbass though.

Is it something about this thread that is toxic?

How is it more fair, in your opinion then, to take the financial question completely out of the equation??

Of course we all wish the aid were more generous (or tuition lower), but that's not the issue we were discussing here.

[cotiger]

Yeah, keeping it need-based doesn't strike me as all that shitty. This is likely why I knew more than a few people who didn't get that much more at CCN than HYS was offering them.

They could do both.. If most of the people whose cost differential between YHS and CCN was $60k+ or differential between YHS and T14 was $100k+ chose the lower ranked school, medians would begin to fall and I bet you'd see them become much more amenable to negotiation.

In the ideal system, yeah, pure need-based is the way to go. But my understanding starts to break down when the sticker price gets so high. It'd be really great if our venerable, esteemed, prestigious, non-profit institutions of higher learning with $30b endowments stopped demanding that broke 25 year olds go $300k into debt just because their parents' combined income level hits the $150k mark.

Part of the argument is that merit based aid (among other things) contributed to the rise in tuition.

Care to walk me through that argument? Has HLS, for instance, ever had merit aid?

[NYSprague]

Yeah, keeping it need-based doesn't strike me as all that shitty. This is likely why I knew more than a few people who didn't get that much more at CCN than HYS was offering them.

They could do both.. If most of the people whose cost differential between YHS and CCN was $60k+ or differential between YHS and T14 was $100k+ chose the lower ranked school, medians would begin to fall and I bet you'd see them become much more amenable to negotiation.

In the ideal system, yeah, pure need-based is the way to go. But my understanding starts to break down when the sticker price gets so high. It'd be really great if our venerable, esteemed, prestigious, non-profit institutions of higher learning with $30b endowments stopped demanding that broke 25 year olds go $300k into debt just because their parents' combined income level hits the $150k mark.

Part of the argument is that merit based aid (among other things) contributed to the rise in tuition.

I have read a reasonable amount about tuition increases and I have never heard this argument before, or data supporting it. I would be interested in links to data if you happen to have some.

[sublime]

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[cotiger]

We're not children anymore. You're still a dumbass though.

Is it something about this thread that is toxic?

DF thread?

[sublime]

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[cotiger]

They could do both.. If most of the people whose cost differential between YHS and CCN was $60k+ or differential between YHS and T14 was $100k+ chose the lower ranked school, medians would begin to fall and I bet you'd see them become much more amenable to negotiation.

In the ideal system, yeah, pure need-based is the way to go. But my understanding starts to break down when the sticker price gets so high. It'd be really great if our venerable, esteemed, prestigious, non-profit institutions of higher learning with $30b endowments stopped demanding that broke 25 year olds go $300k into debt just because their parents' combined income level hits the $150k mark.

Part of the argument is that merit based aid (among other things) contributed to the rise in tuition.

Care to walk me through that argument? Has HLS, for instance, ever had merit aid?

I don't believe they have, but should they charge $30k when CCN is charging 55? They don't really have any incentive to do that, especially when they can just take the money from those willing to pay, and discount others appropriately.

But that's not specifically due to merit. Need based creates those same incentives. Perhaps even more strongly.

[Hrun]

His point that a $40k and $120k household income doesn't have any significant differences is still absurd though.[/quote]

Don't forget, people who make 40k only have 1 kid and people who make 120k have at least 2.

[emu42]

I enjoyed law school and I don't think it was a hellhole, and that's not really what people were scoffing at.

I'm not gonna go back and pull out quotes for you, but...yes, that was definitely scoffed at.

It was scoffed at because you'd already dug yourself into a hole and sounded naive about the whole process. If you hadn't, no one would have cared.

I typed out lines and lines of drivel in this thread and what people took the most offense with was the notion law school could be a rewarding/enjoyable experience. If not being a jaded asshole means I'll get ripped apart by the 5k post wolves, I'd rather get ripped apart by the wolves.

[jbagelboy]

yeah, but at least in terms of HY that's their policy for undergrad as well (I think S also?) … they don't do merit money and I don't think they are likely to change that any time soon.

the need based aid at HY is super generous at the undergrad level though, and tied to an ivy-wide policy, so that's not really a fair comparison.

No top undergrads do merit based anymore ASAIK. largely because everyone that goes there is pretty ridiculous already, and also because they need to provide for 100% need. undergrad is more competitive than law school admissions-wise, and schools aren't straggling to find people to attend and increase their admission stats - schools like Columbia, Stanford, Princeton have 5-6% acceptance rates.

[sublime]

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[Pulsar]

His point that a $40k and $120k household income doesn't have any significant differences is still absurd though.

You're really doubling down on being dumb. Consider that $120k is less than the associate salaries that struggle to pay off law school debt in under a decade. Both of those numbers approximate to "Good luck in law school kid! Here's some loan paperwork the school sent you."

Two kids go to law school and both end up negative $200k plus. Please explain why one is more needy than the other. Oh that's right; they aren't. Carry on.