Class of 2013 Employment Data Forum

[manillabay]

Slavery wasn't economically viable, the institution would likely have collapsed on its own (it almost did before the invention of the cotton gin). The costs of maintaining a slave, which by nature is inefficient labor, greatly exceeded the cost of importing low-wage workers, like the Chinese in the West.

I don't think slavery is in any way good, and that it was a dark part of US history. It was unfortunate that the country was born with it as an institution, and it wasn't an easy issue to solve. But, at least for the South, the issue wasn't just slavery, but rather the ability to maintain states' rights. With such a polarized country, it was reckless to try to use the Federal government to impose one side's will on the other. As a result, 600,000 Americans died.

This is a joke, right?

A lot of bad things would probably end on their own. It's a good thing we don't want for market corrections when the thing being corrected is a literal atrocity. And replacing one evil, slavery of blacks, with another, slavery of Chinese and 'Orientals', hardly counts as a fix.

Slavery was a pretty easy issue to solve. From day one, abolitionists existed who recognized the atrocity for what it was. A lot of our Founding Fathers did as well. But they capitulated. Why? To appease some idiots. It's easy to hide behind 'states' rights', in fact a lot of states try to whenever they attempt to denigrate minorities. It's a good thing we have a Federal government that 'imposes' emancipation over enslavement. Or would you say that since there were 'two sides' to the issue, it would have been justifiable and righteous to allow the other side to continue being shitty because 'lol two sides bro'?

Also, to whoever mentioned that it's more accurate to look at placement rather than ranking, I think this is why there's a better argument for the strata of the T14 being rearranged. Clearly, MVP are not peers of one another. Each of those three are likely in different classes. It seems almost facetious in light of hiring statistics to argue that V is so far superior to Duke or Cornell.

Slavery was, generally speaking, not really an issue until William Lloyd Garrison came along in the '30's and demanded an immediate, uncompensated end to slavery. They (he & other abo's) also antagonized southerners by calling them heathens & the like. There had been prior talks of gradualism and recolonization, but when the abolitionists began to radicalize their approach to this question, the south reacted vigorously.

This has to be a joke as well.

None of that is opinion. All of it is historical fact. Thanks.

[lawschool22]

None of that is opinion. All of it is historical fact. Thanks.

Slavery was, generally speaking, not really an issue

That ^ was historic fact? For who exactly was it not really an issue?

[Blessedassurance]

Slavery was, generally speaking, not really an issue until William Lloyd Garrison came along in the '30's and demanded an immediate, uncompensated end to slavery.

i'm sure it was an issue for the enslaved. sit back and think about the numerous problems with the underlined. what's with this sudden influx of low iq shticks?

[hashashin]

Georgetown's class size for the class of 2016 was 544, down 6% and may be decreasing further this year.

Speaking of M, doesn't Michigan release granular data about what positions each student took? It should be pretty easy (but exhausting) to figure out which PI and government positions were actually desirable, no?

georgetown takes a lot of transfers.

georgetown should follow michigan's lead in releasing "granular data"...unrelated but wasn't there a sheep farmer in the michigan data one year?

LOL yes...but that seemed to more be one person's extremely quirky choice. It didn't seem that he was COMPELLED into it.

[manillabay]

Slavery was, generally speaking, not really an issue until William Lloyd Garrison came along in the '30's and demanded an immediate, uncompensated end to slavery.

i'm sure it was an issue for the enslaved. sit back and think about the numerous problems with the underlined. what's with this sudden influx of low iq shticks?

Yeah, I'm quite obviously not talking about whether or not slavery was an issue for slaves. I really don't get your point. I've provided no opinion on the matter.

[californiauser]

78% of students participate at OCI at Michigan. You probably have a much better than whatever the employment numbers show if big law is your goal. Any one have any data about OCI participation at other schools?

[rayiner]

I disagree that 0L's should worry about "grade cut offs" for big law, because that's largely flame. Yes, firms have cut-offs, but the data isn't widely disclosed. Outside the bottom 10%, grades will not be an absolute bar to getting big law at a T14. There are just tons of secondary market firms that are happy to get a T14 grad and don't have a handle on the grade inflation. I know a number of bottom quarter people at NU that got firm jobs.

That doesn't mean everyone will get a firm job, however. If your grades are bad, what will save you is having lots of interviews, hustling, and having less competition. This is what hurts GULC. Firms do not sign up for 3x as many OCI slots at GULC just because its class is 3x bigger. They do not have 3x as many callback slots allocated to GULC. So even if a firm has say a top 1/3 cut off at GULC and NU, there's 3x more people in the pool at GULC that pass the filter and not 3x as many callback slots for them.

[justonemoregame]

78% of students participate at OCI at Michigan. You probably have a much better than whatever the employment numbers show if big law is your goal. Any one have any data about OCI participation at other schools?

source, link?

[californiauser]

78% of students participate at OCI at Michigan. You probably have a much better than whatever the employment numbers show if big law is your goal. Any one have any data about OCI participation at other schools?

source, link?

That's what they reported at admitted students weekend

[aboutmydaylight]

78% of students participate at OCI at Michigan. You probably have a much better than whatever the employment numbers show if big law is your goal. Any one have any data about OCI participation at other schools?

source, link?

That's what they reported at admitted students weekend

That's actually a pretty big deal then...

[californiauser]

78% of students participate at OCI at Michigan. You probably have a much better than whatever the employment numbers show if big law is your goal. Any one have any data about OCI participation at other schools?

source, link?

That's what they reported at admitted students weekend

That's actually a pretty big deal then...

A huge portion of the students I talked to are 100% public interest focused and chose michigan because of their loan repayment plan. I think the OCI participation rate shows this. Apparently a large portion of the unemployed people are people who failed the bar, too.

[justonemoregame]

I need documentation, seems like a curiously accurate number

[rickgrimes69]

Alright, I am jumping on this UMichigan-bashing bandwagon even though I don't have a bone to pick with them. I don't understand why the people (see fringles) in this thread are so defensive of this school despite its absolutely shitty employment numbers in comparison to the rest of the T14. School-funded jobs may not be cool, but at least they are better than letting almost 10% of your graduating class go unemployed, and another 5% go underemployed (non-FTLT work). As rickgrimes69 pointed out, this is a school that has both touted the meaningless "T10" category and claimed to be "a leader in public interest law." School-funded positions might not be ideal, but at least they allow many students to get their foot in the door to PI organizations that they otherwise couldn't afford to pursue.

Also, Michigan doesn't have a home market. For example, for the graduating classes of 2011/2012/2013, 18%/18%/17% ended up in NY; 15%/13%/15% ended up in Illinois, and 13%/12%/12% ended up in Michigan. This means that 87%~88% of the kids graduating from UMichigan are having to battle with schools from other states to find work there. UVA is similarly situated, but at least it is a lot closer to D.C., and at least it is funding its graduates so that they can get some experience right out of school.

+ 1 to all of this

[californiauser]

I need documentation, seems like a curiously accurate number

I'm sure the admissions office would be happy to give you the information if you called or emailed. I would be skeptical too if I hadn't gone and met so many people genuinely only interested in public interest.

[skers]

I really doubt participation is only 78% at Michigan. Here they say 380 2Ls and 3Ls participated in OCI, so unless a pretty huge number of 3Ls are going through OCI (which could be viewed as a bit of bad sign on its own aside from no offers), I don't see how you'd get that number.

[BigZuck]

Blaming the students for Michigan's failings is one of my favorite turns this argument inevitably takes.

[Tiago Splitter]

lol @ slavery discussion ITT. How do these things happen?

I do appreciate all Michigan trolling. The 78% number sounds good but keep in mind that OCI participation is lower as OCI proves less fruitful.

As for CLS and clerkships, what I read earlier from Nelson was spot on. It's a one year blip, and the longer term numbers probably have a lot to do with CLS students being less geographically flexible.

[20141023]

.

[Tiago Splitter]

I wish these statistics were also counting DOJ or other federal honors programs plus Skadden/EJW/Soros fellowships because those are all incredibly desirable outcomes and even harder to get in a lot of cases.

It doesn't really matter if your goal is to compare the schools since these aren't counted for anyone, and the A3 + Big Law number should correlate very well with the positions you mentioned.

Dude, no. Those positions are looking for very different things.

Weird comment given your desire to hold onto PSLF for everyone. In the PSLF thread you certainly seemed to think that school prestige mattered for a lot of PI and telling people to just take the money and deal with the debt forgiveness cap isn't cool. It's almost as if you're telling us that those elite outcomes don't correlate with school rank. Either way, if you can provide the data for these jobs you want to include I'll happily add them to the OP.

[worldtraveler]

I wish these statistics were also counting DOJ or other federal honors programs plus Skadden/EJW/Soros fellowships because those are all incredibly desirable outcomes and even harder to get in a lot of cases.

It doesn't really matter if your goal is to compare the schools since these aren't counted for anyone, and the A3 + Big Law number should correlate very well with the positions you mentioned.

Dude, no. Those positions are looking for very different things.

Weird comment given your desire to hold onto PSLF for everyone. In the PSLF thread you certainly seemed to think that school prestige mattered for a lot of PI and telling people to just take the money and deal with the debt forgiveness cap isn't cool. It's almost as if you're telling us that those elite outcomes don't correlate with school rank. Either way, if you can provide the data for these jobs you want to include I'll happily add them to the OP.

I don't think you understand how PI hiring works. You often need an elite degree and an entirely different set of qualifications which do not include grades. That's why big law numbers don't correlate. Just because you can get a prestigious clerkship or big law doesn't mean you can get an EJW or DOJ civil rights. Some schools are better at grooming people to get these than others, and that's something that matters. I know that in recent years Berkeley has sent more people straight to the DOJ and other fed honors than peer schools. Michigan (I think? I could be wrong) was killing it for a while with prestigious fellowships. If this thread is supposed to be about what schools will get you the absolute elite employment, big law and Art III just doesn't cover it all.

[worldtraveler]

I disagree that 0L's should worry about "grade cut offs" for big law, because that's largely flame. Yes, firms have cut-offs, but the data isn't widely disclosed. Outside the bottom 10%, grades will not be an absolute bar to getting big law at a T14. There are just tons of secondary market firms that are happy to get a T14 grad and don't have a handle on the grade inflation. I know a number of bottom quarter people at NU that got firm jobs.

That doesn't mean everyone will get a firm job, however. If your grades are bad, what will save you is having lots of interviews, hustling, and having less competition. This is what hurts GULC. Firms do not sign up for 3x as many OCI slots at GULC just because its class is 3x bigger. They do not have 3x as many callback slots allocated to GULC. So even if a firm has say a top 1/3 cut off at GULC and NU, there's 3x more people in the pool at GULC that pass the filter and not 3x as many callback slots for them.

I have no idea why people aren't paying more attention to rayiner.

[Tiago Splitter]

If this thread is supposed to be about what schools will get you the absolute elite employment, big law and Art III just doesn't cover it all.

No one thinks biglaw plus article III covers it all. Just point me to the data so we can include it in the OP.

[worldtraveler]

If this thread is supposed to be about what schools will get you the absolute elite employment, big law and Art III just doesn't cover it all.

No one thinks biglaw plus article III covers it all. Just point me to the data so we can include it in the OP.

I have no idea if schools are even reporting it. I'm just trying to point out some of the limitations so that 0Ls aren't getting the wrong idea, as some clearly are.

[A. Nony Mouse]

A little late to the party here, but: discussions of slavery and its impact and how it was abolished are not on-topic here. I understand how everyone got there by talking about why employment in the south might be different from the rest of the country, but please stick to discussions of employment. Thanks.

[Tiago Splitter]

If this thread is supposed to be about what schools will get you the absolute elite employment, big law and Art III just doesn't cover it all.

No one thinks biglaw plus article III covers it all. Just point me to the data so we can include it in the OP.

I have no idea if schools are even reporting it. I'm just trying to point out some of the limitations so that 0Ls aren't getting the wrong idea, as some clearly are.

I understand completely. My concern with telling naive 0L's that these numbers are useless for PI is that many of them who claim to want it won't do PI, and many of them will use the fact that these numbers aren't perfect for PI to justify paying good money for a shithole. Just look at the choosing threads where people deciding between different TTT's routinely say "not looking for biglaw" as if that justifies a terrible decision.

But to clarify: I'm not posting these numbers are to say that they are the be-all, end-all. They are simply a conservative estimate of good outcomes based on the limited data we have.