Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago? Forum

[rpupkin]

I don't think the issue is what percentage of Rubies get clerkships, but what percentage Rubies make up of all Chicago's clerks.

Why isn't the issue of what % of Rubies get clerkships relevant? If 70% of them get clerkships compared to 10% for the rest of the students, that seems pretty meaningful to me.

It's the comparison to the rest of students that's meaningful, which is what I meant by what percentage Rubies are of
Chicago's clerks. I inartfully was trying to say that percentage of Rubies matters only as it compares to everyone else (who wants to clerk) - is their clerking rate disproportionate (and can we ever know what role self-selection plays in this).

Yes, agree. Overall AIII clerkship placement at Chicago (which includes the Ruby Scholars) is about 15%, so obviously the Ruby group is placing much, much better compared to the rest of the Chicago student population.

[star fox]

Who knows who even wants to clerk anyways

[jbagelboy]

Who knows who even wants to clerk anyways

people (meaning 0Ls) on TLS have become super obsessed with "clerkships" recently and its bizarre

[UVA2B]

Who knows who even wants to clerk anyways

people (meaning 0Ls) on TLS have become super obsessed with "clerkships" recently and its bizarre

I take it as the new prestige marker showing I'm special, even at a T13.

[rpupkin]

Who knows who even wants to clerk anyways

people (meaning 0Ls) on TLS have become super obsessed with "clerkships" recently and its bizarre

I take it as the new prestige marker showing I'm special, even at a T13.

Nothing new about it. For years on TLS, 0Ls have been posting about "clerkships" as an important (and sometimes the only) career goal.

[UVA2B]

Who knows who even wants to clerk anyways

people (meaning 0Ls) on TLS have become super obsessed with "clerkships" recently and its bizarre

I take it as the new prestige marker showing I'm special, even at a T13.

Nothing new about it. For years on TLS, 0Ls have been posting about "clerkships" as an important (and sometimes the only) career goal.

Yeah, guess I meant more as replacing T14 or bust. People have always touted wanted clerkships as a 0L, but it's every bit as nonsensical as T14 or bust was in a vacuum.

[landshoes]

Full tuition tuition scholarship discount at UChi still better than HLS unless HLS has significant need-based aid coming with it.

Also, it sounds like the Ruby recipients get institutional support that contributes to the outcomes we saw linked to upthread. If OP isn't actually getting a Ruby, the impact could be more than just financial.

Not OP, but if institutional support rather than the scholars' merits are driving elite COA placemnent among Rubenstein recipients, I am definitely going to HY if I get off either of those waitlists. It sucks that UChicago is potentially picking winners and losers for elite clerkships based on pre-law school credentials.

they don't. don't worry about this.

Is that true? I raised it because, in past threads, Ruby recipients at Chicago discussed how the law school goes out of its way to set up clerkship opportunities for the Ruby Scholars. Perhaps they weren't being truthful, but the other explanation—that the 70% clerkship placement for Ruby Scholars is simply due to coincidence or superior pre-LS credentials—strikes me as unlikely.

It is doubtful that I will ever be in a position where elite appellate clerkship placement is relevant (even if I miraculously get into Y), but it would be nice to feel like the law school I'm going to is an even playing field (of sorts).

Ironically, this is a reason why I prefer grades to no grades or H/P systems. I suspect it's easier for me (oddball, not elite undergrad) to get LORs than it would be if there were a larger subjective component to grading. I definitely had profs in undergrad who dismissed me as a serious student because [insert stereotype here]. I have never had that issue here.

[rpupkin]

Full tuition tuition scholarship discount at UChi still better than HLS unless HLS has significant need-based aid coming with it.

Also, it sounds like the Ruby recipients get institutional support that contributes to the outcomes we saw linked to upthread. If OP isn't actually getting a Ruby, the impact could be more than just financial.

Not OP, but if institutional support rather than the scholars' merits are driving elite COA placemnent among Rubenstein recipients, I am definitely going to HY if I get off either of those waitlists. It sucks that UChicago is potentially picking winners and losers for elite clerkships based on pre-law school credentials.

they don't. don't worry about this.

Is that true? I raised it because, in past threads, Ruby recipients at Chicago discussed how the law school goes out of its way to set up clerkship opportunities for the Ruby Scholars. Perhaps they weren't being truthful, but the other explanation—that the 70% clerkship placement for Ruby Scholars is simply due to coincidence or superior pre-LS credentials—strikes me as unlikely.

It is doubtful that I will ever be in a position where elite appellate clerkship placement is relevant (even if I miraculously get into Y), but it would be nice to feel like the law school I'm going to is an even playing field (of sorts).

Ironically, this is a reason why I prefer grades to no grades or H/P systems. I suspect it's easier for me (oddball, not elite undergrad) to get LORs than it would be if there were a larger subjective component to grading. I definitely had profs in undergrad who dismissed me as a serious student because [insert stereotype here]. I have never had that issue here.

Grading at HYSB isn't more subjective than grading at Chicago or any other school.

[xn3345]

Does anyone have any anecdata or insight into why the Ruby clerkship rate is so much higher than the general student body? How much of the discrepancy is attributable to institutional support that most students don't have access to? Are these students that performed much better in undergrad and on a standardized test simply doing the same in law school? As a Ruby-less Uchi 0L, I'm trying to get a sense of whether I should think of the clerkship rate as ~15% or that minus all the Ruby people. Up to this point, I thought of HLS and Uchi's clerkship numbers as being extremely comparable (within a couple percentage points), rendering clerkship stats a poor reason for choosing HLS over Chi. I'm less sure about that now. For the record, I don't think of this as dispositive in any way. It's just another thing to consider.

[KMart]

Ruby seems like the obvious answer. If you are still leaning Harvard, why not elaborate why? That way people can address any specific concerns you have.

Fair. Off the top of my head why HLS isn't completely out of the picture:
1. Quarter system/semester system, and grades. At HLS everybody sounded a lot more relaxed about them, whereas Chicago students emphasized to me how stressed the rhythm of the quarter and fine differentiation in final grade made everyone.
2. Honestly, the name. This is not me willfully ignoring peoples' notions that the H brand provides marginal lift at best. Rather, I've only seen it taken as a given on TLS that HLS is hardly ever worth it. So I'm asking for an affirmative argument for the following: any long-term career benefit of H over C is marginal at best. Exactly how is it marginal, and what do these margins look like?

Go to Harvard.

Free up that Ruby for someone who fully realizes the value of the offer they have in hand.

or for someone who's smart enough to actually see it's the best deal in law school. honestly, you don't deserve it. such a shame. enjoy Boston.

[Pure Applesauce]

Op if you can't understand why you should take the best possible admission outcome here then go to Harvard

[lawlzschool]

turn chi down. ill pm you my name and lsac # and you can ask them to reallocate it to me

[it's allgood]

How important is quality of life for the 3 years you will be at law school? If it were me, I would choose Harvard because a) Cambridge and Boston are awesome and I prefer those to Chicago/ Hyde Park b) Harvard while larger in class size also offers more law courses, has more law professors, has more centers, and has many experts in other fields (in case you would like to take a class outside of the law school and do a little exploration).

(poster who would choose GULC over YLS)

I would not apply to GULC.

[rpupkin]

How important is quality of life for the 3 years you will be at law school? If it were me, I would choose Harvard because a) Cambridge and Boston are awesome and I prefer those to Chicago/ Hyde Park b) Harvard while larger in class size also offers more law courses, has more law professors, has more centers, and has many experts in other fields (in case you would like to take a class outside of the law school and do a little exploration).

(poster who would choose GULC over YLS)

I would not apply to GULC.

I don't understand. GULC is full of law courses, law professors, and centers—the things you seem to value the most. Why won't you apply?

[jbagelboy]

How important is quality of life for the 3 years you will be at law school? If it were me, I would choose Harvard because a) Cambridge and Boston are awesome and I prefer those to Chicago/ Hyde Park b) Harvard while larger in class size also offers more law courses, has more law professors, has more centers, and has many experts in other fields (in case you would like to take a class outside of the law school and do a little exploration).

(poster who would choose GULC over YLS)

I would not apply to GULC.

I don't understand. GULC is full of law courses, law professors, and centers—the things you seem to value the most. Why won't you apply?

Yeah. Georgetown is beautiful (putting aside that GULC is nowhere near Georgetown). DC is great. And it is "larger in class size" and "also offers more law courses, has more law professors, has more centers, and has many experts in other fields (in case you would like to take a class outside of the law school and do a little exploration)".

[Npret]

Op if you can't understand why you should take the best possible admission outcome here then go to Harvard

Are these threads really just humble brags at the end of the day? Who doesn't legitimately understand that the Ruby is the best outcome?

[Lavitz]

Since OP changed thread title from "Ruby" to "Fully," I assume OP realized he wasn't being offered a Ruby?

[Rigo]

Since OP changed thread title from "Ruby" to "Fully," I assume OP realized he wasn't being offered a Ruby?

Yeah he edited that in the OP too.
So just a fully, which is still the way to go imo.

[it's allgood]

How important is quality of life for the 3 years you will be at law school? If it were me, I would choose Harvard because a) Cambridge and Boston are awesome and I prefer those to Chicago/ Hyde Park b) Harvard while larger in class size also offers more law courses, has more law professors, has more centers, and has many experts in other fields (in case you would like to take a class outside of the law school and do a little exploration).

(poster who would choose GULC over YLS)

I would not apply to GULC.

I don't understand. GULC is full of law courses, law professors, and centers—the things you seem to value the most. Why won't you apply?

Yeah. Georgetown is beautiful (putting aside that GULC is nowhere near Georgetown). DC is great. And it is "larger in class size" and "also offers more law courses, has more law professors, has more centers, and has many experts in other fields (in case you would like to take a class outside of the law school and do a little exploration)".

I like to visit DC but do not want to live there for three years at this point, especially if there are other choices like UC Irvine!

[jbagelboy]

How important is quality of life for the 3 years you will be at law school? If it were me, I would choose Harvard because a) Cambridge and Boston are awesome and I prefer those to Chicago/ Hyde Park b) Harvard while larger in class size also offers more law courses, has more law professors, has more centers, and has many experts in other fields (in case you would like to take a class outside of the law school and do a little exploration).

(poster who would choose GULC over YLS)

I would not apply to GULC.

I don't understand. GULC is full of law courses, law professors, and centers—the things you seem to value the most. Why won't you apply?

Yeah. Georgetown is beautiful (putting aside that GULC is nowhere near Georgetown). DC is great. And it is "larger in class size" and "also offers more law courses, has more law professors, has more centers, and has many experts in other fields (in case you would like to take a class outside of the law school and do a little exploration)".

I like to visit DC but do not want to live there for three years.

Lol. I agree with this statement actually but its deliciously irrelevant to the point

[nedstarksbastard]

Does anyone have any anecdata or insight into why the Ruby clerkship rate is so much higher than the general student body? How much of the discrepancy is attributable to institutional support that most students don't have access to? Are these students that performed much better in undergrad and on a standardized test simply doing the same in law school? As a Ruby-less Uchi 0L, I'm trying to get a sense of whether I should think of the clerkship rate as ~15% or that minus all the Ruby people. Up to this point, I thought of HLS and Uchi's clerkship numbers as being extremely comparable (within a couple percentage points), rendering clerkship stats a poor reason for choosing HLS over Chi. I'm less sure about that now. For the record, I don't think of this as dispositive in any way. It's just another thing to consider.

I think it's just a result of the Ruby selecting for people who have factors (uGPA, LSAT, intangibles) that correlate well with success in law school. That is to say, the Rubies are chosen for being smart, driven, and ambitious, and those characteristics also make them likely to get clerkships. But the institutional support is also there for non-Rubies who do well in law school. Some of the most prestigious clerkships in this graduating class went to non-Rubies. Basically, if you do well at U of C, the school will push to help get you a clerkship; Ruby status hardly comes into it.

[Npret]

It would be simpler if all the 0Ls said Harvard was their dream school, they feel they will have bragging rights, they will always have their perceived Harvard status and that's why they want to go.

Reality isn't a good counter to the assumed self esteem boost from going to Harvard.

[jbagelboy]

Does anyone have any anecdata or insight into why the Ruby clerkship rate is so much higher than the general student body? How much of the discrepancy is attributable to institutional support that most students don't have access to? Are these students that performed much better in undergrad and on a standardized test simply doing the same in law school? As a Ruby-less Uchi 0L, I'm trying to get a sense of whether I should think of the clerkship rate as ~15% or that minus all the Ruby people. Up to this point, I thought of HLS and Uchi's clerkship numbers as being extremely comparable (within a couple percentage points), rendering clerkship stats a poor reason for choosing HLS over Chi. I'm less sure about that now. For the record, I don't think of this as dispositive in any way. It's just another thing to consider.

The 9-month ABA Clerkship stat is never a good consideration in choosing a school. The Rubenstein scholars issue is of even less moment. But, in fairness, more Harvard students will ultimately clerk, on average. The distinction is not great, but 20-25% of Chicago students will clerk, and more like 25-30% of HLS students will clerk. That's not a great reason to choose one school or the other, but its a more accurate picture.

[hlsperson123]

The distinction is not great, but 20-25% of Chicago students will clerk, and more like 25-30% of HLS students will clerk.

Do you have a source for either of these figures? Because I can tell you the range you gave for HLS is wrong for 2015 (the only year I checked).

[Nebby]

The distinction is not great, but 20-25% of Chicago students will clerk, and more like 25-30% of HLS students will clerk.

Do you have an actual source for either of these figures? Because I can tell you the range you gave for HLS is wrong for 2015 (the only year I checked).

Link your source