Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard) Forum

[BlendedUnicorn]

If you're smart enough to end up on the Supreme Court you can always start at UVA, finish 1L ranked #1 or 2, and then transfer to Yale for whatever prestige advantage you think may exist.

Not taking the money and the flexibility that goes with it sounds crazy to me.

[20170322]

I'm just glad that Justices Alito and Thomas didn't ask TLS for advice before enrolling at YLS

To be fair, tuition was prolly more affordable back then.

Yeah I don't think you can use old SCOTUS justices as models for deciding where to go.

Well, then in that case the new ones are all from Harvard.

And as someone pointed out somewhere earlier, one of Donald
Trump's attorneys graduated from Cooley. Gerry Spence when to the University of Wyoming. There are anecdotes upon anecdotes floating around if that's what you want to rely on.

100% of the current SC bench having at one time attended Harvard or Yale is hardly anecdote, lol.

Exactly. Which is why if you want to be Attorney General, you ought to go to Alabama.

[canafsa]

.

[addie1412]

Assuming grades in law school are pretty random and hard work means very little

I think this is quite an exaggerated assumption

[UVAIce]

That being said, I think it's fair to say UVa with a Dillard would be the right choice in that situation. You'll certainly get there a lot faster and less painfully.

Do not care about prestige. Have modest goals by T14 standards.

But my biggest fear with UVA is ending up in the bottom half or, worse, bottom third. That's almost half of the class. Assuming grades in law school are pretty random and hard work means very little, what do you do then?

I'm as happy to shoot down special snowflakes as anyone around here, but if you have the numbers for Harvard and Yale chances are you'll do just fine at UVA. And at schools like UVA, there really isn't a clear line about what constitutes median; you just need to get into that mushy middle that comprises the vast majority of the class and you'll be alright.

This. While this is anecdotal evidence, I have yet to meet a person with a Dillard scholarship who did not succeed at school and life (at least professionally). It sounds as if you're also coming from an excellent underground background; you'll do fine.

Having graduated and practiced for a few years I can tell you that most lawyers would rather be debt free and enjoy the professional freedom that comes with picking a job you want rather than having to take a position that pays a certain amount of consideration. I had to turn down an amazing opportunity a few months ago precisely because I would have "only" been making ~$100,000 a year rather than what I make right now. Professional flexibility is widely undervalued on TLS. My recommendation would be to take the money, but it's not as if life is going to be terrible if you go to Yale.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I'm just glad that Justices Alito and Thomas didn't ask TLS for advice before enrolling at YLS

To be fair, tuition was prolly more affordable back then.

Yeah I don't think you can use old SCOTUS justices as models for deciding where to go.

Well, then in that case the new ones are all from Harvard.

And as someone pointed out somewhere earlier, one of Donald
Trump's attorneys graduated from Cooley. Gerry Spence when to the University of Wyoming. There are anecdotes upon anecdotes floating around if that's what you want to rely on.

100% of the current SC bench having at one time attended Harvard or Yale is hardly anecdote, lol.

The current SC bench is some infitesimally tiny percentage of the total number of lawyers, even if you limit the pool to those to attended HYS, let alone the T14, let alone all law schools. They have no relevance to choosing a school. No one on this website is going to end up on SCOTUS.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Assuming grades in law school are pretty random and hard work means very little

I think this is quite an exaggerated assumption

Also, law school grades aren't random, but they're unpredictable. You will not know what you're going to get and hard work doesn't mean as much as figuring out how to write an exam.

[BlendedUnicorn]

I'm just glad that Justices Alito and Thomas didn't ask TLS for advice before enrolling at YLS

To be fair, tuition was prolly more affordable back then.

Yeah I don't think you can use old SCOTUS justices as models for deciding where to go.

Well, then in that case the new ones are all from Harvard.

And as someone pointed out somewhere earlier, one of Donald
Trump's attorneys graduated from Cooley. Gerry Spence when to the University of Wyoming. There are anecdotes upon anecdotes floating around if that's what you want to rely on.

100% of the current SC bench having at one time attended Harvard or Yale is hardly anecdote, lol.

The current SC bench is some infitesimally tiny percentage of the total number of lawyers, even if you limit the pool to those to attended HYS, let alone the T14, let alone all law schools. They have no relevance to choosing a school. No one on this website is going to end up on SCOTUS.

Not only is this statistically true it's also true because the fact that someone posted here will come out during the vetting process.

[Rigo]

Not only is this statistically true it's also true because the fact that someone posted here will come out during the vetting process.

"Did you or did you not private message females on top-law-schools.com/forums about your paraphilic infantilism and diaper fetishism?"

[RickyBunny]

Thanks all and sorry to have fallen off the thread.

I am by no means wealthy (immigrant, single parent household, 1st generation college student/major contributor to my family's finances, etc. etc.) but still have managed to amass some savings that I think will not help me secure need based scholarship given k-jd candidates who are from a similar background/don't have any savings. I am assuming that based on my understanding that law schools barely give any need based aid (I could be completely wrong here but that is what I have been told).

I'm going to latch onto this thread, despite still waiting to hear from Yale.


If someone's goals are Clerking/Biglaw/Eventually an 8-6 job, and they prefer UVA, is the thread agreeing that UVA would be the right choice in this situation?

This thread won't agree on anything because there's a toxic mix of prestigewhore 0Ls and practicing attorneys.

That being said, I think it's fair to say UVa with a Dillard would be the right choice in that situation. You'll certainly get there a lot faster and less painfully.

Yes. Take the Dillard. Here's a point that often gets overlooked: without having to pay down massive debt you get to save and invest all that money. Think of how much farther ahead you will be financially if you can accumulate the money you would otherwise be paying toward your debt.

As for OP, I find it hard to justify an extra $250,000 or so of debt to go to Yale. But maybe OP has the money or some unusual dream goal that might make Yale the right choice. Hopefully OP will return and add more information.

Sorry for losing my patience here.

[Bearlyalive]

Thanks all and sorry to have fallen off the thread.

I am by no means wealthy (immigrant, single parent household, 1st generation college student/major contributor to my family's finances, etc. etc.) but still have managed to amass some savings that I think will not help me secure need based scholarship given k-jd candidates who are from a similar background/don't have any savings. I am assuming that based on my understanding that law schools barely give any need based aid (I could be completely wrong here but that is what I have been told).

Most law schools do not give significant need-based aid. YHS are the outliers in that they often do. I don't think you should assume you'd be paying sticker unless you have already received an aid package of $0. Most people are disqualified based on parental incomes, but if you're working on your own you could get substantial aid. It'll depend on what you mean by "some savings".

Keep in mind that need-based financial aid packages are usually calculated year to year, so Yale could ask you to eat through your savings your first year, and then give you substantial aid for your next two years. This is assuming you don't do high-paid work over the summers; many need-recipients get a bit of a shock when their aid package plummets because they made $25k over the summer. But it could work the opposite way for you.

I think that since your goals are still largely undefined, the Dillard is probably still the optimal choice (as a full-rider myself, I can't tell you how nice it is to not have to worry about debt, and I'm still only a 1L). But if you're talking about 60k COA debt for UVA versus 150k debt for Yale... I think it gets a lot closer. But wait until you get your full financial aid package from Yale (and talk with them about it in the meantime), and also keep doing research on what you think you want to do with your degree.

(Also, I can't confirm this, but I've heard that you can liquidate your assets and basically minimize the savings that you have available to be counted in Y's financial aid calculations. Can't really hang on to the money, but you could buy things you'll need long term anyways, like some nice suits, furniture sets, etc. Really, really make sure you double-check this before relying on this "advice".)

[Npret]

I'm just glad that Justices Alito and Thomas didn't ask TLS for advice before enrolling at YLS

To be fair, tuition was prolly more affordable back then.

Not to derail OPs thread any further but...
This reminded me of a fantastic blog that tracks increases in law school tuition since 1996 through 2014.

Just 10 years ago tuition at Yale was $40,900 a year in 2006-2007 ($43,700 a year in 2007-2008)and will be $59,865 for 2017 (according to LST). So an increase of $20,000 since 2006. ($16,000 since 2007)

https://lawschooltuitionbubble.wordpres ... w%20School

If you recall biglaw salaries were stagnant through that period until the post recession raises last year. Law school tuition increased every year during the recession.

So my general point is that the 0Ls are looking at paying more tuition and taking on significantly more debt than previous classes. Its easy to forget how much tuition has increased when considering outcomes compared to other classes.

You have to scroll down as schools are organized by state and he says it works best in chrome

Here's the link for your enjoyment:
https://lawschooltuitionbubble.wordpres ... lstb-data/

[Npret]

Thanks all and sorry to have fallen off the thread.

I am by no means wealthy (immigrant, single parent household, 1st generation college student/major contributor to my family's finances, etc. etc.) but still have managed to amass some savings that I think will not help me secure need based scholarship given k-jd candidates who are from a similar background/don't have any savings. I am assuming that based on my understanding that law schools barely give any need based aid (I could be completely wrong here but that is what I have been told).

Most law schools do not give significant need-based aid. YHS are the outliers in that they often do. I don't think you should assume you'd be paying sticker unless you have already received an aid package of $0. Most people are disqualified based on parental incomes, but if you're working on your own you could get substantial aid. It'll depend on what you mean by "some savings".

Keep in mind that need-based financial aid packages are usually calculated year to year, so Yale could ask you to eat through your savings your first year, and then give you substantial aid for your next two years. This is assuming you don't do high-paid work over the summers; many need-recipients get a bit of a shock when their aid package plummets because they made $25k over the summer. But it could work the opposite way for you.

I think that since your goals are still largely undefined, the Dillard is probably still the optimal choice (as a full-rider myself, I can't tell you how nice it is to not have to worry about debt, and I'm still only a 1L). But if you're talking about 60k COA debt for UVA versus 150k debt for Yale... I think it gets a lot closer. But wait until you get your full financial aid package from Yale (and talk with them about it in the meantime), and also keep doing research on what you think you want to do with your degree.

(Also, I can't confirm this, but I've heard that you can liquidate your assets and basically minimize the savings that you have available to be counted in Y's financial aid calculations. Can't really hang on to the money, but you could buy things you'll need long term anyways, like some nice suits, furniture sets, etc. Really, really make sure you double-check this before relying on this "advice".)

Yes to need based aid from HYS. Wait until you have numbers because it could be much closer in price than the estimates I came up with for each school.

[pinkpaperdragon]

Hi RickyBunny, I had this same decision to make last year - Dillard vs. Yale at sticker, and after agonizing right up until the last moment I chose Yale. I took a deferral so as of now have no way of knowing whether I made the “right” decision, but actually I believe that both outcomes here are objectively “right.”

My decision came down to a medley of factors ranging from personal to professional to financial, but one thing I found to be particularly helpful was talking to people who hire in my field of interest (here I have a leg-up on you, since I have a pretty cohesive idea of what I want to do when I graduate - PI in a specific issue area). The advice ranged from “you’ll get where you want to go either way, so do what makes the most financial sense/go to where you want to live for 3 years” to “you’ll get opportunities for this field at YLS that you won’t get anywhere else.” So, even knowing what I want after graduation didn’t make the decision easy for me.

However, during these conversations, I realized something valuable about myself - I am risk-averse, but in a choice between financial risk and opportunity/experience risk, I was more willing to take on the financial risk - hence deciding for Yale. But again, this is a very personal calculus, and could easily be turned on its head for someone with different career goals/financial circumstances.

I realize your goals maybe aren’t as crystallized yet, and that’s fine. You might find it most helpful to seek out mid-to-late career professionals from both programs to speak to. Many of them will have hired/supervised recent graduates from both schools, and can help you evaluate even though you’re keeping your career options open (plus, I found alumni, especially those who have been working several years, to be more objective in discussing the pros and cons of their schools than current/just graduated students.)

Also, I second the poster who suggested waiting until you receive your financial aid offer from YLS before making assumptions. You also might find it valuable to meet with the financial aid office when you visit to discuss if there are different ways to allocate your savings (such as buying a home) that might factor into your need assessment.

Congrats and good luck! If you have specific questions about my decision process please PM me.

[20170322]

Bump.

[Rigo]

Bump.

What more is there to say about this?

[Npret]

Bump.

What more is there to say about this?

Seriously. Contact some Dillard scholars in school and grads and get their thought process.

I can't fathom turning down a Dillard for any school but I'm strongly averse to debt financing a law diploma especially when it's completely unnecessary.

[Dcc617]

Full ride to UVA is a pretty great outcome. I think the value added of HYS is way outweighed by a quarter million dollars. I can't imagine a scenario where it would make sense to turn it down.