Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt) v. Chicago (Rubenstein) Forum

[Npret]

Jesus fucking Christ at all these 0L's trying to decide how much 6-figure debt to take on for law school. Here's a hint - none. After having had to make loan payments on 6 figures of law school debt, I can't imagine much of a scenario in which it's worth it, unless perhaps your singular goal is to be a law school professor or do some sort of other unicorn fairytale job. Otherwise, take the free or heavily discounted ride to what is still a stellar school.

I feel like they are mostly going to have to figure it out the hard way. Maybe the key is that the people who are know to take a full ride are just smarter or more mature or maybe more emotionally well balanced? Or maybe they appreciate money?
It's as if $100,000 isn't a good deal of money to them, but they don't have the cash to pay for school.

[BlendedUnicorn]

I think there's probably some insurance value to it but the more I think about it 50 or 100k seems like an insane amount to pay for it.

e. For what it's worth if I was ever interviewing someone and I found out that they'd turned a ruby/hamilton/butler/dillard type deal down to pay sticker at HYS I'd ding them for poor judgement

[shadowfax]

I'm curious how much empathy the anti-prestige faction has for what they must think are the poor fools who pay full price to go to NYU rather than take money at, heaven forbid, Virginia or Penn. I can only assume the answer would be that of course you pay up for NYU... it is T-6 after all.

NYU is buying the OP's grades. Pure and simple. The OP's stated goal is to make as much money in big law as humanly possible while investing the least amount of his/hers own money. No saving the whales or solving world hunger here. Nothing wrong with that. NYU could use the merit scholarship money to reduce everyone tuition. They choose not to. Merit trumps equity. And don't tell me the money was donated only to provide merit scholarships. Since money is fungible, and the school has an annual budget to meet, the OP is getting a free ride on the backs of the great unwashed who are paying full price.

A substantial majority of all law students pay full price at the institutions they attend. Again I am vastly more impressed with HYS for being the truly democratic institutions that provide funds based on need.

[Rigo]

I'm curious how much empathy the anti-prestige faction has for what they must think are the poor fools who pay full price to go to NYU rather than take money at, heaven forbid, Virginia or Penn. I can only assume the answer would be that of course you pay up for NYU... it is T-6 after all.

NYU is buying the OP's grades. Pure and simple. The OP's stated goal is to make as much money in big law as humanly possible while investing the least amount of his/hers own money. No saving the whales or solving world hunger here. Nothing wrong with that. NYU could use the merit scholarship money to reduce everyone tuition. They choose not to. Merit trumps equity. And don't tell me the money was donated only to provide merit scholarships. Since money is fungible, and the school has an annual budget to meet, the OP is getting a free ride on the backs of the great unwashed who are paying full price.

A substantial majority of all law students pay full price at the institutions they attend. Again I am vastly more impressed with HYS for being the truly democratic institutions that provide funds based on need.

Uhh okay. This was weird and not applicable.

[bloomsday]

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[A. Nony Mouse]

I'm curious how much empathy the anti-prestige faction has for what they must think are the poor fools who pay full price to go to NYU rather than take money at, heaven forbid, Virginia or Penn. I can only assume the answer would be that of course you pay up for NYU... it is T-6 after all.

NYU is buying the OP's grades. Pure and simple. The OP's stated goal is to make as much money in big law as humanly possible while investing the least amount of his/hers own money. No saving the whales or solving world hunger here. Nothing wrong with that. NYU could use the merit scholarship money to reduce everyone tuition. They choose not to. Merit trumps equity. And don't tell me the money was donated only to provide merit scholarships. Since money is fungible, and the school has an annual budget to meet, the OP is getting a free ride on the backs of the great unwashed who are paying full price.

A substantial majority of all law students pay full price at the institutions they attend. Again I am vastly more impressed with HYS for being the truly democratic institutions that provide funds based on need.

Oh for god's sake get off your high horse. Yes, someone who wants NYC biglaw and pays sticker for NYU over Penn or UVA with $ is silly - I don't think anyone here would dispute that, either. You have some weird anti-NYU/rankings hard-on thing going on. And if HYS were so democratic they could let in more people.

Yes, people who get scholarships are attending on the backs of people who pay sticker. Some of those are rich kids whose parents are paying. Some aren't. Until the system changes, there's nothing anyone here can do about that - are you saying they should turn down with money and pay full price just to be fair to others? That's silly as fuck.

[BlendedUnicorn]

Cosign Nony but also adding that a lot of scholarships are specifically funded by donors. While you can argue that once the money's in the system it doesn't matter where it goes, funding these things is a big hook for a lot of donors so it's not clear at all that students on scholarship are there at the expense of others.

E. For what it's worth, I'm in favor of abolishing scholarships and lowering the cost of school across the board. But until that happens, play the game and look out for yourself.

[soj]

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[soj]

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[BlendedUnicorn]

0Ls keep talking about these unicorn jobs that are accessible only with hys prestige. i can state from experience that no such thing exists. if anything, you forgo opportunities by taking hys over ccn with $$$. having little or no debt is what gives you the freedom to be adventurous in your career choices and take the unicorn opportunities. want to work in government or at a non-profit? a cool in-house or non-legal job in the private sector that pays less than 180k? start a big family right away and buy a house? good luck with that when you have >200k debt straight out of law school.

six-figure debt is what tethers you to biglaw and keeps you there long after you don't want to be there anymore. being debt-free gives you a head start on life by several years. you'll only build upon that lead.

don't act like the harvard connection will be the difference-maker in your scotus nomination or something, when realistically the only h-bomb you'll drop is when you whisper it to yourself at night to rationalize your life choices.

I will say it seems significant that such a (relatively) small number of Yale grads go into big law- but it's tough to say what's correlation and what's causation here given that Yale looks beyond numbers to an extent that H and other schools don't. Seems pretty reasonable to think that someone with a Yale background would have a good shot at unicorn jobs from other t14s too.

I've also heard it argued that HYS have significantly better LRAP programs than "rely on PSLF" and that enables their grads to pursue non-biglaw careers. But that's dumb because no loans in the first place is the ultimate LRAP.

[soj]

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[jbagelboy]

0Ls keep talking about these unicorn jobs that are accessible only with hys prestige. i can state from experience that no such thing exists. if anything, you forgo opportunities by taking hys over ccn with $$$. having little or no debt is what gives you the freedom to be adventurous in your career choices and take the unicorn opportunities. want to work in government or at a non-profit? a cool in-house or non-legal job in the private sector that pays less than 180k? start a big family right away and buy a house? good luck with that when you have >200k debt straight out of law school.

six-figure debt is what tethers you to biglaw and keeps you there long after you don't want to be there anymore. being debt-free gives you a head start on life by several years. you'll only build upon that lead.

don't act like the harvard connection will be the difference-maker in your scotus nomination or something, when realistically the only h-bomb you'll drop is when you whisper it to yourself at night to rationalize your life choices.

+100000000

[jbagelboy]

clerkships deflate biglaw numbers, but i don't really consider a clerkship a unicorn opportunity. certainly they can be great experiences and they're competitive, but most clerks go straight into biglaw, even from yale. anecdotally, my peers pursuing true unicorn opportunities (starting a company, doing something very unusual in nonprofit or politics, working at a lifestyle or boutique law firm that pays less than biglaw) tend to be the ones who are already the most financially secure. going to yale might increase access to these opportunities, but they're not always attractive to people who have to pay their own way out of 250k debt.

i agree on LRAP--they're great, but obviously not better than no loans. hys have good lrap programs, but they have changed and can change the programs to make them less generous, harder to qualify for, and more reliant on government loan forgiveness programs. i wouldn't necessarily trust these schools to have my backs for 10 years or however long it is, especially if i may become interested in positions that are quasi- or non-legal, or if i'm interested in jobs that pay moderately high but not enough to quickly deal with six-figure debt (e.g., 100k). contrary to the bimodal legal salary graph, these opportunities do exist, especially if you're looking at non-traditional or non-legal opportunities.

Also Yale has a unique lrap program that makes it not interchangeable with hls and sls, and other schools like cls and chicago have very strong lrap programs to boot--as strong as LIPP by any objective measure.

The financial flexibility point CANNOT be overstated. If you are wealthy and someone else is paying for you to go to school, by all means attend whichever school you think provides access to the most opportunities to the widest margin of the class. Money is a fungible good to those who have it. Debt is not. It severely limits your opportunities as a graduate. (That's part of why Yale's program is unique--you don't need to remain with certain types of employers to qualify).

[soj]

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[BlendedUnicorn]

I think we all agree and it's weird that none of us are 0Ls.

No loans= GODLRAP

[minkbrigade]

Does shifting down the law school rung change this equation at all? I.e., would you choose full-tuition at a strong regional school vs debt-financing/relying on LRAP for CCN?

[A. Nony Mouse]

Does shifting down the law school rung change this equation at all? I.e., would you choose full-tuition at a strong regional school vs debt-financing/relying on LRAP for CCN?

Depends on what your career goals are.

[minkbrigade]

Does shifting down the law school rung change this equation at all? I.e., would you choose full-tuition at a strong regional school vs debt-financing/relying on LRAP for CCN?

Depends on what your career goals are.

Pretty standard PI goals--not at all interested in BigLaw (hence relying on LRAP), and not particularly attached to clerking. I'm most interested in the conversation re: flexibility. I've done the math for several different scenarios, and relying on LRAP is likely to result in a lower total out-of-pocket cost than paying off the COL loans without an LRAP at the strong regional. But is that worth it to give up the flexibility of not relying on LRAP? I have several years of WE and based on the conversations I've had with PI lawyers, I believe I'm interested in the work for the long haul, but it's hard to know for sure, obviously, until I'm in it.

[BlendedUnicorn]

Does shifting down the law school rung change this equation at all? I.e., would you choose full-tuition at a strong regional school vs debt-financing/relying on LRAP for CCN?

Depends on what your career goals are.

Pretty standard PI goals--not at all interested in BigLaw (hence relying on LRAP), and not particularly attached to clerking. I'm most interested in the conversation re: flexibility. I've done the math for several different scenarios, and relying on LRAP is likely to result in a lower total out-of-pocket cost than paying off the COL loans without an LRAP at the strong regional. But is that worth it to give up the flexibility of not relying on LRAP? I have several years of WE and based on the conversations I've had with PI lawyers, I believe I'm interested in the work for the long haul, but it's hard to know for sure, obviously, until I'm in it.

There's literally no such thing as a "pretty standard PI goal." Do you want to do impact litigation for a national non-profit, public defense, prosecution, administrative work for a state gov org? These are all very different career fields and it's impossible to give general advice without knowing more.

[BlendedUnicorn]

As a rule of thumb though paying sticker for a T14 vs free ride at a non-T14 is a much tougher decision than the easy choice of HYS v $$$ at CCN.

[minkbrigade]

Does shifting down the law school rung change this equation at all? I.e., would you choose full-tuition at a strong regional school vs debt-financing/relying on LRAP for CCN?

Depends on what your career goals are.

Pretty standard PI goals--not at all interested in BigLaw (hence relying on LRAP), and not particularly attached to clerking. I'm most interested in the conversation re: flexibility. I've done the math for several different scenarios, and relying on LRAP is likely to result in a lower total out-of-pocket cost than paying off the COL loans without an LRAP at the strong regional. But is that worth it to give up the flexibility of not relying on LRAP? I have several years of WE and based on the conversations I've had with PI lawyers, I believe I'm interested in the work for the long haul, but it's hard to know for sure, obviously, until I'm in it.

There's literally no such thing as a "pretty standard PI goal." Do you want to do impact litigation for a national non-profit, public defense, prosecution, administrative work for a state gov org? These are all very different career fields and it's impossible to give general advice without knowing more.

I'm interested in legal aid or holistic public defense along the lines of the Bronx Defenders. Sorry, I meant "pretty standard" as in I'm not tied to something super competitive, which as I understand it impact litigation for a national non-profit or working in some PI gov positions is (although, correct me if I'm wrong. Obviously a clueless 0L here!)

ETA: I'm not necessarily looking for specific advice, I'm just curious if this conversation translates at all to the decision between a full-ride from a decent but non T-14 school and debt-financing/relying on an LRAP at a T6. It's hard to parse through whether the TLS T-14 bias is always about objective employment outcomes or is about prestige, and this seemed like a good crew to ask.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Yeah, this totally depends on what standard PI means. If you want to be a local PD/ADA/legal aid attorney, free regional all day every day. If you mean like ACLU or Earthjustice, that's a much tougher question. (I agree with the above, free regional v T14 for sticker is much tougher than HYS v. $ at CCN.)

Edit: you posted while I wrote the above, but yeah, I think free regional is the better option here (not that Bronx Defenders aren't competitive, but I don't think school is dispositive). Although people familiar with where you want to be will have to weigh in (I'm not super up on NYC).

My only caveat is if PI means "I don't want the biglaw lifestyle but otherwise I'm not sure," that's a little tougher again.

[BlendedUnicorn]

Does shifting down the law school rung change this equation at all? I.e., would you choose full-tuition at a strong regional school vs debt-financing/relying on LRAP for CCN?

Depends on what your career goals are.

Pretty standard PI goals--not at all interested in BigLaw (hence relying on LRAP), and not particularly attached to clerking. I'm most interested in the conversation re: flexibility. I've done the math for several different scenarios, and relying on LRAP is likely to result in a lower total out-of-pocket cost than paying off the COL loans without an LRAP at the strong regional. But is that worth it to give up the flexibility of not relying on LRAP? I have several years of WE and based on the conversations I've had with PI lawyers, I believe I'm interested in the work for the long haul, but it's hard to know for sure, obviously, until I'm in it.

There's literally no such thing as a "pretty standard PI goal." Do you want to do impact litigation for a national non-profit, public defense, prosecution, administrative work for a state gov org? These are all very different career fields and it's impossible to give general advice without knowing more.

I'm interested in legal aid or holistic public defense along the lines of the Bronx Defenders. Sorry, I meant "pretty standard" as in I'm not tied to something super competitive, which as I understand it impact litigation for a national non-profit or working in some PI gov positions is (although, correct me if I'm wrong. Obviously a clueless 0L here!)

Yeah, then it makes a lot more sense to go to a strong regional in the area you want to work for free than it does to pay for preftige. As a general rule of thumb local-impact PI cares a lot more about commitment and experience than it cares about pedigree.

[BlendedUnicorn]

Yeah, this totally depends on what standard PI means. If you want to be a local PD/ADA/legal aid attorney, free regional all day every day. If you mean like ACLU or Earthjustice, that's a much tougher question. (I agree with the above, free regional v T14 for sticker is much tougher than HYS v. $ at CCN.)

Edit: you posted while I wrote the above, but yeah, I think free regional is the better option here (not that Bronx Defenders aren't competitive, but I don't think school is dispositive). Although people familiar with where you want to be will have to weigh in (I'm not super up on NYC).

My only caveat is if PI means "I don't want the biglaw lifestyle but otherwise I'm not sure," that's a little tougher again.

My usual advice is don't go to law school when I ferret out that message

[minkbrigade]

Cool, thanks guys!