Cornell (Half) vs. StJohn's (Full) Forum

[A. Nony Mouse]

Btw, I noticed you referencing Cornell as "we"...are you currently enrolled in Cornell Law School or an alumni/faculty member?

Yes. 3L, graduating in 2 weeks.

Damn, Lavitz. I remember talking to you about Cornell when you were a 1L.

OP, maybe you're only obtuse on the internet, but if your seeming inability to engage in reasonable dialogue extends beyond these forums, you may consider taking a year or two off to gain some (more?) work experience. I mean this in all sincerity. It seems you, like many others before you, asked for advice wanting validation for the decision you want to make. But with the information you have provided, all sound arguments lead to Cornell.

Well, I don't know what it says about YOUR character that you resort to calling someone names and insults right off the bat, but the reason why I'm considering SJU even though I got an offer from Cornell, is because the latter is very far away from where I live and very expensive. Even with the half scholarship I would STILL incur a lot of debt, not to mention have to pay interest for all my living expenses. That seems like a very "obtuse" thing for me to do. Especially if I have a full tuition offer on the table as well. However, I do acknowledge that Cornell is an Ivy and would increase my chances of finding a job. I don't know by how much though, since I do know people who graduated SJU and have found jobs (BigLaw and others.) So as much as I appreciate the offer from Cornell, I don't know if it's worth the 150k sacrifice, plus being far away from my family, friends, and life in NYC, which is why I came onto this forum to gauge other people's opinions.

As others have pointed out, you can learn how much by looking at law school transparency and comparing the schools' employment outcomes.

[silverdoe91]

You would be a literal moron to choose St Johns over Cornell here.

You'd be surprised, but I've had people tell me the exact opposite, off of this forum. They said I'd be foolish to turn down a full ride to incur 150k in debt. So I think if your argument had a little bit more reasoning behind it, rather than insults, it would be more convincing.

You have to realize that the vast majority of people (including successful non-lawyers, old lawyers, your career guidance counselors etc.) just have no idea of the realities of the legal market today. We on this forum do.

Historically SJU places about 10% of their graduates into BL, Cornell places 65-75% into BL or FedClerk. Let's assume for a second that the 10% at SJU is not entirely diverse candidates or those with connections or those in IP you still have to probably be the number one kid in your section to have a shot and that's assuming the market doesn't get any worse. At Cornell at median or a little under you are golden.

$150k in debt is scary, but it's about the average for law grads today and you have the chance to attend a much MUCH better than average school here.

How do people on this forum know the realities of the legal market today? Via statistics? Bc I've looked them up but statistics don't tell you about job satisfaction and people's satisfaction with their debt. Sure, Cornell may be placing lots of individuals in BigLaw, but are they happy? Or are they just indentured servants forced into those jobs to pay off their skyrocketing debts? I don't want that to be my future.

[silverdoe91]

I wish you had applied more broadly. WUSTL would have likely been a full ride and a good bargaining chip.
I get that you're hesitant to take on the debt, but it's a steep fall from Cornell to St. John's.

Yeah, I know, right now I'm more hoping for a full ride from Cardozo or maybe Fordham. Those schools have better reps in NYC.

You should get really good Cardozo money, but their employment prospects are still pretty meh iirc.

iirc? Idk what acronym means!

[pterodactyls]

I wish you had applied more broadly. WUSTL would have likely been a full ride and a good bargaining chip.
I get that you're hesitant to take on the debt, but it's a steep fall from Cornell to St. John's.

Yeah, I know, right now I'm more hoping for a full ride from Cardozo or maybe Fordham. Those schools have better reps in NYC.

You should get really good Cardozo money, but their employment prospects are still pretty meh iirc.

iirc? Idk what acronym means!

If I remember correctly...

[silverdoe91]

OP, have you in fact checked out law school transparency? The numbers it lays out are objective and clear.

True, you COULD end up with a great job and zero debt from SJU. That's totally possible. It's just exceedingly unlikely, your anecdotes notwithstanding. It's much more likely you get a bad law job if you can even find one.

Maybe you'd be better off retaking and reapplying if you don't want Cornell to this extent.

Haha, I don't hate Cornell, I just have some doubts about it, thats all! I've never been away for school before, nor incurred such a large debt for school, so it is a bit daunting to take out so much in loans to move away to a place like Ithaca. It was nice when I visited but it's very different from what I'm used to, plus I heard it snows a lot there, and I'm really averted to cold weather!

[silverdoe91]

I wish you had applied more broadly. WUSTL would have likely been a full ride and a good bargaining chip.
I get that you're hesitant to take on the debt, but it's a steep fall from Cornell to St. John's.

Yeah, I know, right now I'm more hoping for a full ride from Cardozo or maybe Fordham. Those schools have better reps in NYC.

You should get really good Cardozo money, but their employment prospects are still pretty meh iirc.

iirc? Idk what acronym means!

If I remember correctly...

Thanks!

[Rigo]

Are you opposed to sitting out and retaking?
It seems like you'll feel uneasy no matter which if your current prospects you attend.

Also, yeah ithaca is cold, but it's not like you're a Floridian or anything.

[pterodactyls]

You've got one life to live, and this decision will decide your employment for basically the rest of your life.

I understand that debt is a major consideration, especially among peer schools. But man, half ride T14 vs. full ride T2... I don't think there's a question. Consider your lifetime earnings, not just the time it will take to pay off student loans. I'm sure that the higher price of the Cornell degree would pay off in the long run.

[SplitMyPants]

looks like two people misread "northeastern" as "northwestern"

enjoy cornell!

[Nachoo2019]

Every single question you have posed ITT is discussed at length in other parts of the forum. It's time you learn to use the search button at the top left of your screen my friend

[Budfox55]

How do people on this forum know the realities of the legal market today? Via statistics? Bc I've looked them up but statistics don't tell you about job satisfaction and people's satisfaction with their debt. Sure, Cornell may be placing lots of individuals in BigLaw, but are they happy? Or are they just indentured servants forced into those jobs to pay off their skyrocketing debts? I don't want that to be my future.

You might be surprised, but living away from NYC might do you a lot of good. Especially living away from your parents.

Do you have any understanding of probability/stats/expected value? Is it possible to get a biglaw job from SJU? Sure. Is it possible that you'll end up in the same place from both SJU and Cornell? Yes, it is. However your expected net income from Cornell (so minus debt) is greater than your expected income from SJU. Much greater. That's also not including the value of the diversity of options that Cornell will provide. If you want PI/gov, in expectations you will have better opportunities available to you from Cornell.

I'm from NY, so I also know a few people from cordozo/SJU/Fordham who are in PI and biglaw. The biglaw ppl from these schools that i know (mostly fordham) had serious connections. The ones who didn't were at the top of their class and were at firms that someone at the bottom 1/3 at Cornell could probably get. The connections aspects also applies to PI as well. I would talk to the people you know from these jobs and inquire how they got them. Specifically ask if they had any sort of ties to the place.

Might be a diff convo if you were paying sticker, but at 90k I think this is a slam dunk for Cornell.

[silverdoe91]

How do people on this forum know the realities of the legal market today? Via statistics? Bc I've looked them up but statistics don't tell you about job satisfaction and people's satisfaction with their debt. Sure, Cornell may be placing lots of individuals in BigLaw, but are they happy? Or are they just indentured servants forced into those jobs to pay off their skyrocketing debts? I don't want that to be my future.

You might be surprised, but living away from NYC might do you a lot of good. Especially living away from your parents.

Do you have any understanding of probability/stats/expected value? Is it possible to get a biglaw job from SJU? Sure. Is it possible that you'll end up in the same place from both SJU and Cornell? Yes, it is. However your expected net income from Cornell (so minus debt) is greater than your expected income from SJU. Much greater. That's also not including the value of the diversity of options that Cornell will provide. If you want PI/gov, in expectations you will have better opportunities available to you from Cornell.

I'm from NY, so I also know a few people from cordozo/SJU/Fordham who are in PI and biglaw. The biglaw ppl from these schools that i know (mostly fordham) had serious connections. The ones who didn't were at the top of their class and were at firms that someone at the bottom 1/3 at Cornell could probably get. The connections aspects also applies to PI as well. I would talk to the people you know from these jobs and inquire how they got them. Specifically ask if they had any sort of ties to the place.

Might be a diff convo if you were paying sticker, but at 90k I think this is a slam dunk for Cornell.

I do want to live away from my parents, lol, but I know I would miss the city and also my little brother.

But in all seriousness, when it comes to job prospects, I don't put that much weight on salary. I don't NEED a 160k job to make me happy. Some attorneys I spoke with at the corporate law firm I worked at seemed to have very lavish lifestyles that they got used to, after being forced into working there to pay off their ridiculous loans from Ivies.

The girl I know from SJU who ended up getting a job there as an attorney just last year, she was ranked 2nd in her class and she did have connections to a partner at the firm, through a judge she knew. Idk if she knew the judge solely through an internship or if it was a family friend but I'll ask.

I know an attorney who works at the non-profit I volunteered in and she went to Cardozo and got a job there right after graduation. She told me if I want to work in non-profits in NYC a school in the city is best because I'll have lots of opportunities to intern & develop connections during school. She told me that she doesn't know any Cornell grads who work there but some she's met who work in Public Advocacy. That does seem like an area I'd be interested in, but she told me that Cardozo also has a program for that. I'm trying to do what's best for my future but also my pockets, lol.

[pterodactyls]

I'm trying to do what's best for my future but also my pockets, lol.

You estimated that debt financed, your total COA for Cornell would be $140k. Standard plan is to pay it back over 10 years, so that's $14,000 per year.

The median starting salary from Cornell is $160,000. So that's a net salary of $146,000.

That's what's best for your pockets. The median starting salary from any of the other schools you are considering will not come close.

[silverdoe91]

I'm trying to do what's best for my future but also my pockets, lol.

You estimated that debt financed, your total COA for Cornell would be $140k. Standard plan is to pay it back over 10 years, so that's $14,000 per year.

The median starting salary from Cornell is $160,000. So that's a net salary of $146,000.

That's what's best for your pockets. The median starting salary from any of the other schools you are considering will not come close.

That's only the starting salary if I want to do corporate. If I don't, then I'm screwed. Sure, the LRAP helps, but in the end I'll still have debt which might limit me in terms of where I want to work and where I can afford to.

[Lincoln]

I'm trying to do what's best for my future but also my pockets, lol.

You estimated that debt financed, your total COA for Cornell would be $140k. Standard plan is to pay it back over 10 years, so that's $14,000 per year.

The median starting salary from Cornell is $160,000. So that's a net salary of $146,000.

That's what's best for your pockets. The median starting salary from any of the other schools you are considering will not come close.

That's only the starting salary if I want to do corporate. If I don't, then I'm screwed. Sure, the LRAP helps, but in the end I'll still have debt which might limit me in terms of where I want to work and where I can afford to.

Just ignore everyone's advice and go to SJU.

[mornincounselor]

Just ignore everyone's advice and go to SJU.

And when you're there do a straw poll and see the number of people there would have chosen Cornell given your situation, I bet that the results are even more decisive (if the people are being honest).

[deepseapartners]

Bc I've looked them up but statistics don't tell you about job satisfaction and people's satisfaction with their debt. Sure, Cornell may be placing lots of individuals in BigLaw, but are they happy? Or are they just indentured servants forced into those jobs to pay off their skyrocketing debts? I don't want that to be my future.

Flip a coin right now. If it's heads, you get a legal job at graduation. If it's tails, you don't. This is St. John's/Cardozo. If you manage to flip heads 6 times in a row, you'll get a job that "makes you happy." If not, you will be miserable for the rest of your career in the law. Congratulations.

If you chose Cornell instead, don't worry about flipping that coin. You get a chance to decide over the course of three years if you care more about "happiness," or prestige, or living on the West Coast, or working for the US government, or moving right back to NYC and working with one of those non-profits that you care so much about working for. None of those options are foreclosed for any student.

This is one of those few scenarios in life where you are given two choices, and not only is one of them a very good choice, but the other one is a very bad choice.

[Traynor Brah]

jesus christ you're thick. good luck at SJ bruh; you'll need it.

[silverdoe91]

I'm not really an expert at this, but I've read like 100+ threads on here of people negotiating scholarships by pinning other offers against the offer of the school you are considering.

Try emailing Cornell and ask if they are willing to reconsider your financial aid package. Let them know you are highly interested in attending, and would be willing to pull the trigger and attend with X amount of dollars. Also, use your full-tuition at SJU as a bargaining chip. It is late in the cycle, but this may very well net you something. However, they are not peer schools, so whereas a full scholly at UVA would function as a much better bargaining chip, SJU will not. That said, it doesn't hurt to ask..

I just heard back from Fordham and they're offering 35k a year and possibly some grants. Do you think I can use that as a bargaining chip with Cornell?

[Nachoo2019]

I'm not really an expert at this, but I've read like 100+ threads on here of people negotiating scholarships by pinning other offers against the offer of the school you are considering.

Try emailing Cornell and ask if they are willing to reconsider your financial aid package. Let them know you are highly interested in attending, and would be willing to pull the trigger and attend with X amount of dollars. Also, use your full-tuition at SJU as a bargaining chip. It is late in the cycle, but this may very well net you something. However, they are not peer schools, so whereas a full scholly at UVA would function as a much better bargaining chip, SJU will not. That said, it doesn't hurt to ask..

I just heard back from Fordham and they're offering 35k a year and possibly some grants. Do you think I can use that as a bargaining chip with Cornell?

They wont take money away from you for trying! Get that negotiation letter out ASAP.

Also you could use your Cornell scholarship to get Fordham to raise theirs. That is more likely.

[Barack O'Drama]

I'm not really an expert at this, but I've read like 100+ threads on here of people negotiating scholarships by pinning other offers against the offer of the school you are considering.

Try emailing Cornell and ask if they are willing to reconsider your financial aid package. Let them know you are highly interested in attending, and would be willing to pull the trigger and attend with X amount of dollars. Also, use your full-tuition at SJU as a bargaining chip. It is late in the cycle, but this may very well net you something. However, they are not peer schools, so whereas a full scholly at UVA would function as a much better bargaining chip, SJU will not. That said, it doesn't hurt to ask..

I just heard back from Fordham and they're offering 35k a year and possibly some grants. Do you think I can use that as a bargaining chip with Cornell?

Absolutely, Nachoo has it right, I didn't think of that. Definitely see if you can use Cornell to get Fordham to raise theirs. And like Nachoo said, they don't rescind offers for asking. Make yourself seem interested in your email, like COA is the only thing holding you back from pulling the trigger and you might get it. Good luck

[silverdoe91]

I'm not really an expert at this, but I've read like 100+ threads on here of people negotiating scholarships by pinning other offers against the offer of the school you are considering.

Try emailing Cornell and ask if they are willing to reconsider your financial aid package. Let them know you are highly interested in attending, and would be willing to pull the trigger and attend with X amount of dollars. Also, use your full-tuition at SJU as a bargaining chip. It is late in the cycle, but this may very well net you something. However, they are not peer schools, so whereas a full scholly at UVA would function as a much better bargaining chip, SJU will not. That said, it doesn't hurt to ask..

I just heard back from Fordham and they're offering 35k a year and possibly some grants. Do you think I can use that as a bargaining chip with Cornell?

Absolutely, Nachoo has it right, I didn't think of that. Definitely see if you can use Cornell to get Fordham to raise theirs. And like Nachoo said, they don't rescind offers for asking. Make yourself seem interested in your email, like COA is the only thing holding you back from pulling the trigger and you might get it. Good luck

Thanks! I'm thinking I might try to get Fordham to raise theirs first, and then ask Cornell about it.

[encore1101]

Look, man, I went to St. John's, and though I was able to get a job out of it, others weren't so lucky. Cornell opens up doors for you.

edit: I understand the temptation to say "Well, I'll just outperform my peers!" but EVERYBODY thinks that going in. You're basically betting on things that are beyond your control. Just statistically, for every person you know that found a decent job coming out of SJU, there's many that haven't.

[encore1101]

You should also think about what your employment plans are. That's the only reason I would choose SJU over Cornell. I knew that I wanted to be a NYC prosecutor, so SJU made sense. If you're unsure, then go to Cornell.
The debt is worth the mobility that a JD from Cornell would provide.

[silverdoe91]

You should also think about what your employment plans are. That's the only reason I would choose SJU over Cornell. I knew that I wanted to be a NYC prosecutor, so SJU made sense. If you're unsure, then go to Cornell.
The debt is worth the mobility that a JD from Cornell would provide.

Did SJU prepare you for a role as a NYC prosecutor?

I'm worried that the debt may restrict me in terms of the types of jobs I can afford to choose, since I'll be paying back my loans. I'm still figuring out all the ins and outs of Cornell's LRAP program to see if it's really worth it.

Also, right now, I'm more debating between Cornell and Fordham/Cardozo. Idk how to change the title of this thread to reflect that, but if you have any opinions on that please let me know. They both have good reps in NYC and I'll save money in cost of living, since I already live here and the tuition will be cheaper.