Penn vs. Michigan Forum

[stego]

I looked for the Michigan LRAP and only found the basic government plan, if you can show me the correct ones, I would appreciate it.

https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/ ... MangPP.pdf
^This is a pretty good resource.

It makes a huge difference if OP has a background in immigration already. If she had that background, she might have a better chance at getting a job in it later. I agree most 0Ls know nothing about the area they intend to practice. I was the same. That doesn't mean it's a good idea. I think there would be far fewer miserable lawyers if people understood the actual work. OP should learn more about what she wants to do as it is a challenging area of law and doesn't look to be reformed anytime soon.

This isn't a thread about satisfaction in career or OP asking what kind of law they should go into. This is a thread about which school to choose given current goals.

As for her plan, as mentioned, her problem will be trying to find a job in a field she nothing about, has zero experience in a technical and complicated area of law ,and has shown absolutely no interest in the field. Her plan for her future won't work. People who are dedicated to a PI cause have already been volunteering or working in it in college. That demonstrated interested is essential to being hired in PI. On top of that she will have to convince them that she will be happy with a huge pay cut. Employers are understandably skeptical about this.

What is this, a job interview? Sliz doesn't have to demonstrate experience to YOU. You have no idea what her experience so far has been, and as I referenced above, she doesn't NEED experience yet.

I suggested that OP contact some PI immigration groups in her area to ask them about hiring. Maybe she will get information that will help her plan her career in a more realistic manner. Listening to the plans of other law students isn't that helpful.

And that's good advice, I'm not shitting on that advice. But you went on for a huge paragraph about why OPs plan wasn't a good plan and counseling her on whether her career goals are realistic, and that isn't what she was asking for .

One thing people do on TLS is give you advice on whether your goals are stupid or unrealistic. It's annoying but we would give worse advice if we didn't do it.

[052220152]

penn is only 1 spot ahead of michigan in the rankings. not worth 50k imo.

Let's play a game. It's called "Find Michigan."
NLJ 100
1) Columbia 52.26
2) Penn 52.23
3) Chicago 52.04
4) Northwestern 47.02
5) Duke 46.19
6) NYU 44.54
7) Cornell 41.34
8 ) UVA 40.87
9) Stanford 40.72
10) Berkeley 38.13
11) Harvard

Let me know when you find it!
Sarcasm aside, many people consider a significant difference in Biglaw outcomes to be worth 50k.

no way, michigan is a T8, penn is only a T7. no way youre gonna pay 50k for that. the rankings dont matter that much dude.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

penn is only 1 spot ahead of michigan in the rankings. not worth 50k imo.

Let's play a game. It's called "Find Michigan."
NLJ 100
1) Columbia 52.26
2) Penn 52.23
3) Chicago 52.04
4) Northwestern 47.02
5) Duke 46.19
6) NYU 44.54
7) Cornell 41.34
8 ) UVA 40.87
9) Stanford 40.72
10) Berkeley 38.13
11) Harvard

Let me know when you find it!
Sarcasm aside, many people consider a significant difference in Biglaw outcomes to be worth 50k.

no way, michigan is a T8, penn is only a T7. no way youre gonna pay 50k for that. the rankings dont matter that much dude.

I can't find Yale or Harvard on that list (Harvard is blank....). Did a monkey put together the list?

[052220152]

penn is only 1 spot ahead of michigan in the rankings. not worth 50k imo.

Let's play a game. It's called "Find Michigan."
NLJ 100
1) Columbia 52.26
2) Penn 52.23
3) Chicago 52.04
4) Northwestern 47.02
5) Duke 46.19
6) NYU 44.54
7) Cornell 41.34
8 ) UVA 40.87
9) Stanford 40.72
10) Berkeley 38.13
11) Harvard

Let me know when you find it!
Sarcasm aside, many people consider a significant difference in Biglaw outcomes to be worth 50k.

no way, michigan is a T8, penn is only a T7. no way youre gonna pay 50k for that. the rankings dont matter that much dude.

I can't find Yale or Harvard on that list (Harvard is blank....). Did a monkey put together the list?

yea plus that list makes no sense because those arent the rankings at all

[stego]

penn is only 1 spot ahead of michigan in the rankings. not worth 50k imo.

Let's play a game. It's called "Find Michigan."
NLJ 100
1) Columbia 52.26
2) Penn 52.23
3) Chicago 52.04
4) Northwestern 47.02
5) Duke 46.19
6) NYU 44.54
7) Cornell 41.34
8 ) UVA 40.87
9) Stanford 40.72
10) Berkeley 38.13
11) Harvard

Let me know when you find it!
Sarcasm aside, many people consider a significant difference in Biglaw outcomes to be worth 50k.

no way, michigan is a T8, penn is only a T7. no way youre gonna pay 50k for that. the rankings dont matter that much dude.

I can't find Yale or Harvard on that list (Harvard is blank....). Did a monkey put together the list?

yea plus that list makes no sense because those arent the rankings at all

National Law Journal rankings based on how many grads went to the biggest 250 firms by headcount, or something.

[052220152]

penn is only 1 spot ahead of michigan in the rankings. not worth 50k imo.

Let's play a game. It's called "Find Michigan."
NLJ 100
1) Columbia 52.26
2) Penn 52.23
3) Chicago 52.04
4) Northwestern 47.02
5) Duke 46.19
6) NYU 44.54
7) Cornell 41.34
8 ) UVA 40.87
9) Stanford 40.72
10) Berkeley 38.13
11) Harvard

Let me know when you find it!
Sarcasm aside, many people consider a significant difference in Biglaw outcomes to be worth 50k.

no way, michigan is a T8, penn is only a T7. no way youre gonna pay 50k for that. the rankings dont matter that much dude.

I can't find Yale or Harvard on that list (Harvard is blank....). Did a monkey put together the list?

yea plus that list makes no sense because those arent the rankings at all

National Law Journal rankings based on how many grads went to the biggest 250 firms by headcount, or something.

oh i see that now. but thats for the nlj 100 which is a dumb and arbitrary cut off. why not do the 350 one?

[Biglaw1990]

.

[Biglaw1990]

.

[052220152]

Let's play a game. It's called "Find Michigan."
NLJ 100
1) Columbia 52.26
2) Penn 52.23
3) Chicago 52.04
4) Northwestern 47.02
5) Duke 46.19
6) NYU 44.54
7) Cornell 41.34
8 ) UVA 40.87
9) Stanford 40.72
10) Berkeley 38.13
11) Harvard

Let me know when you find it!
Sarcasm aside, many people consider a significant difference in Biglaw outcomes to be worth 50k.

no way, michigan is a T8, penn is only a T7. no way youre gonna pay 50k for that. the rankings dont matter that much dude.

I can't find Yale or Harvard on that list (Harvard is blank....). Did a monkey put together the list?

yea plus that list makes no sense because those arent the rankings at all

National Law Journal rankings based on how many grads went to the biggest 250 firms by headcount, or something.

oh i see that now. but thats for the nlj 100 which is a dumb and arbitrary cut off. why not do the 350 one?

Unfortunately the NLJ only published the stats for the largest 100 firms.

Ok, why not just use the biglaw + fed clerk? Nlj 100 still seems dumb

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Unfortunately the NLJ only published the stats for the largest 100 firms.

By this metric NU is better than NYU (?)....This is just a dumb list because NYU is better than all of the ones above it besides Columbia for NYC biglaw (which is where a lot of the largest firms are based). (I'm basing this on offer/callback ratios from my NYC firm.)

[Tls2016]

Michigan's LRAP link: https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/ ... yment.aspx

The difference between Michigan's LRAP from most of the T-14 is that it's not just tied to non profit work:

So the program is not limited to public interest jobs?
No, we do not require that employment be in public interest or public service. We really want our graduates to do the legal work they want to do, whether that is for a public interest organization, the government, or a small law firm in a sparsely populated area. The breadth of our program distinguishes it from most other similar programs.

That said, if you have no PI background it will be hard lateralling from biglaw from PI. I know a handful of people who have done this, but they did pro bono throughout biglaw and have second languages....most people who went into PI that I knew went straight out of law school. PI orgs are skeptical of biglawyers and won't really believe you're serious about PI if you haven't done a good amount of PI work in the past. Also, I think there's generally a stigma going from biglaw to PI (like you care too much about money...)

Also biglaw is pretty much irrelevant for PI work - there's basically no overlap beyond basic research and writing. So you'd know nothing useful for PI.

(My spouse does attorney hiring at a non-profit and I would estimate 95% of the attorneys there went straight into PI from law school)

I didn't know this about Michigans plan. The amounts seem complicated to calculate but if you end up in a small private firm it will help you while Penn gives you nothing. Penn is tied to PI but is simpler to calculate.

Michigan also lets people come and go at least once from the plan. Not sure if Penn requires you to have a qualifying job at graduation or another set time.

People taking on debt for PI have to carefully calculate the amounts they can get under various LRAP. It's a whole other level of detailed consideration.

[slizerd]

Michigan's LRAP link: https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/ ... yment.aspx

The difference between Michigan's LRAP from most of the T-14 is that it's not just tied to non profit work:

So the program is not limited to public interest jobs?
No, we do not require that employment be in public interest or public service. We really want our graduates to do the legal work they want to do, whether that is for a public interest organization, the government, or a small law firm in a sparsely populated area. The breadth of our program distinguishes it from most other similar programs.

That said, if you have no PI background it will be hard lateralling from biglaw from PI. I know a handful of people who have done this, but they did pro bono throughout biglaw and have second languages....most people who went into PI that I knew went straight out of law school. PI orgs are skeptical of biglawyers and won't really believe you're serious about PI if you haven't done a good amount of PI work in the past. Also, I think there's generally a stigma going from biglaw to PI (like you care too much about money...)

Also biglaw is pretty much irrelevant for PI work - there's basically no overlap beyond basic research and writing. So you'd know nothing useful for PI.

(My spouse does attorney hiring at a non-profit and I would estimate 95% of the attorneys there went straight into PI from law school)

I didn't know this about Michigans plan. The amounts seem complicated to calculate but if you end up in a small private firm it will help you while Penn gives you nothing. Penn is tied to PI but is simpler to calculate.

Michigan also lets people come and go at least once from the plan. Not sure if Penn requires you to have a qualifying job at graduation or another set time.

People taking on debt for PI have to carefully calculate the amounts they can get under various LRAP. It's a whole other level of detailed consideration.

I just spoke to a Michigan finaid counselor about their LRAP and am much less enthused now. Apparently $60,000 in debt is a "very small amount" and is not eligible for their LRAP. If I'm going to be in debt and not have help paying it off I might as well go to a school (Penn) that has a better chance of getting a job after graduation

[slizerd]

Also, an update:

I visited Michigan and did not love it at all even though I really, really wanted to their admissions staff is all students; there are no actual full-time admissions people that I saw which made me nervous. It could have just been that day, but still :/
Even though my visit was scheduled a month in advance, they forgot which things I was scheduled for etc. And they had a last minute 1L tour guide that was extremely nervous about finding a job after graduation, and the students all seemed sad. I had this amazing picture of Michigan in my head and the visit kind of killed it

[krads153]

Michigan's LRAP link: https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/ ... yment.aspx

The difference between Michigan's LRAP from most of the T-14 is that it's not just tied to non profit work:

So the program is not limited to public interest jobs?
No, we do not require that employment be in public interest or public service. We really want our graduates to do the legal work they want to do, whether that is for a public interest organization, the government, or a small law firm in a sparsely populated area. The breadth of our program distinguishes it from most other similar programs.

That said, if you have no PI background it will be hard lateralling from biglaw from PI. I know a handful of people who have done this, but they did pro bono throughout biglaw and have second languages....most people who went into PI that I knew went straight out of law school. PI orgs are skeptical of biglawyers and won't really believe you're serious about PI if you haven't done a good amount of PI work in the past. Also, I think there's generally a stigma going from biglaw to PI (like you care too much about money...)

Also biglaw is pretty much irrelevant for PI work - there's basically no overlap beyond basic research and writing. So you'd know nothing useful for PI.

(My spouse does attorney hiring at a non-profit and I would estimate 95% of the attorneys there went straight into PI from law school)

I didn't know this about Michigans plan. The amounts seem complicated to calculate but if you end up in a small private firm it will help you while Penn gives you nothing. Penn is tied to PI but is simpler to calculate.

Michigan also lets people come and go at least once from the plan. Not sure if Penn requires you to have a qualifying job at graduation or another set time.

People taking on debt for PI have to carefully calculate the amounts they can get under various LRAP. It's a whole other level of detailed consideration.

I just spoke to a Michigan finaid counselor about their LRAP and am much less enthused now. Apparently $60,000 in debt is a "very small amount" and is not eligible for their LRAP. If I'm going to be in debt and not have help paying it off I might as well go to a school (Penn) that has a better chance of getting a job after graduation

That's weird, you should ask the financial aid officer why their powerpoint slide (see slide #13) uses $60k debt amount as an example of LRAP forgiveness (I would just email the link). This powerpoint implies that $60k debt is eligible for LRAP forgiveness. Also based on the equation, it looks like you won't even know if you're eligible until you have your income so I'm not sure how they made that determination without all of the factors required.

https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/ ... MangPP.pdf

[krads153]

Michigan's LRAP link: https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/ ... yment.aspx

The difference between Michigan's LRAP from most of the T-14 is that it's not just tied to non profit work:

So the program is not limited to public interest jobs?
No, we do not require that employment be in public interest or public service. We really want our graduates to do the legal work they want to do, whether that is for a public interest organization, the government, or a small law firm in a sparsely populated area. The breadth of our program distinguishes it from most other similar programs.

That said, if you have no PI background it will be hard lateralling from biglaw from PI. I know a handful of people who have done this, but they did pro bono throughout biglaw and have second languages....most people who went into PI that I knew went straight out of law school. PI orgs are skeptical of biglawyers and won't really believe you're serious about PI if you haven't done a good amount of PI work in the past. Also, I think there's generally a stigma going from biglaw to PI (like you care too much about money...)

Also biglaw is pretty much irrelevant for PI work - there's basically no overlap beyond basic research and writing. So you'd know nothing useful for PI.

(My spouse does attorney hiring at a non-profit and I would estimate 95% of the attorneys there went straight into PI from law school)

I didn't know this about Michigans plan. The amounts seem complicated to calculate but if you end up in a small private firm it will help you while Penn gives you nothing. Penn is tied to PI but is simpler to calculate.

Michigan also lets people come and go at least once from the plan. Not sure if Penn requires you to have a qualifying job at graduation or another set time.

People taking on debt for PI have to carefully calculate the amounts they can get under various LRAP. It's a whole other level of detailed consideration.

Yep, most LRAP programs are convoluted - also there's no "guarantee" that you will be accepted for any LRAP program from my understanding....they typically list "necessary" requirements, but not "sufficient" requirements in LRAP programs.

[anyriotgirl]

Also, an update:

I visited Michigan and did not love it at all even though I really, really wanted to their admissions staff is all students; there are no actual full-time admissions people that I saw which made me nervous. It could have just been that day, but still :/
Even though my visit was scheduled a month in advance, they forgot which things I was scheduled for etc. And they had a last minute 1L tour guide that was extremely nervous about finding a job after graduation, and the students all seemed sad. I had this amazing picture of Michigan in my head and the visit kind of killed it

did you expect law students to be happy?

[krads153]

did you expect law students to be happy?

My happiness level in law school >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my happiness level in practice. If you want to be happy, don't go into law.

[anyriotgirl]

did you expect law students to be happy?

My happiness level in law school >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my happiness level in practice. If you want to be happy, don't go into law.

too late

[krads153]

did you expect law students to be happy?

My happiness level in law school >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my happiness level in practice. If you want to be happy, don't go into law.

too late

lol...well from what I've seen, a fair number of people quit law (i'm at a firm) after 5 years or so in it...so you can always do that at age 31 or so. Just do restart life at 31.

[anyriotgirl]

did you expect law students to be happy?

My happiness level in law school >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my happiness level in practice. If you want to be happy, don't go into law.

too late

lol...well from what I've seen, a bunch of people quit law (i'm at a firm) after 5 years or so in it...so you can always do that at age 32 or so.

I want to eke out a few years at a firm and then go in house and become a professional bully

[krads153]

did you expect law students to be happy?

My happiness level in law school >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my happiness level in practice. If you want to be happy, don't go into law.

too late

lol...well from what I've seen, a bunch of people quit law (i'm at a firm) after 5 years or so in it...so you can always do that at age 32 or so.

I want to eke out a few years at a firm and then go in house and become a professional bully

fair enough. just keep in mind a lot of in house is just like biglaw, except with lower pay...so grass is not always greener....keep your eyes open and do your diligence with in house.

i'm just gunning for opening my own business some day and of course, winning the lottery.

[slizerd]

Also, an update:

I visited Michigan and did not love it at all even though I really, really wanted to their admissions staff is all students; there are no actual full-time admissions people that I saw which made me nervous. It could have just been that day, but still :/
Even though my visit was scheduled a month in advance, they forgot which things I was scheduled for etc. And they had a last minute 1L tour guide that was extremely nervous about finding a job after graduation, and the students all seemed sad. I had this amazing picture of Michigan in my head and the visit kind of killed it

did you expect law students to be happy?

Lol no, but at Penn the students looked glad to be there and in law school, whereas at mich everyone looked like they hated life. Again, it could have just been a bad day for a visit though.

[052220152]

Also, an update:

I visited Michigan and did not love it at all even though I really, really wanted to their admissions staff is all students; there are no actual full-time admissions people that I saw which made me nervous. It could have just been that day, but still :/
Even though my visit was scheduled a month in advance, they forgot which things I was scheduled for etc. And they had a last minute 1L tour guide that was extremely nervous about finding a job after graduation, and the students all seemed sad. I had this amazing picture of Michigan in my head and the visit kind of killed it

did you expect law students to be happy?

Lol no, but at Penn the students looked glad to be there and in law school, whereas at mich everyone looked like they hated life. Again, it could have just been a bad day for a visit though.

just pick the school with the happiest studnets dude, clearly they are doin somethin right

[slizerd]

just pick the school with the happiest studnets dude, clearly they are doin somethin right

I am 99.9% sure at this point that I'm going to Penn. After visiting both, the overall feel/location of Penn was a hundred times better than Michigan (completely subjective, I'm sure there are tons of people who feel the opposite). But even though I am really debt averse, i would rather take the gamble with a school that has stronger placement even if it is higher debt. Penn's job prospects + higher debt are more appealing than Michigan's (still good, but not AS good) job prospects and reasonable debt. I'd also rather get acclimated to city life now instead of during biglaw (provided I get it).
The advice here was SUPER helpful, thank you everyone who contributed!!

[jnwa]

just pick the school with the happiest studnets dude, clearly they are doin somethin right

I am 99.9% sure at this point that I'm going to Penn. After visiting both, the overall feel/location of Penn was a hundred times better than Michigan (completely subjective, I'm sure there are tons of people who feel the opposite). But even though I am really debt averse, i would rather take the gamble with a school that has stronger placement even if it is higher debt. Penn's job prospects + higher debt are more appealing than Michigan's (still good, but not AS good) job prospects and reasonable debt. I'd also rather get acclimated to city life now instead of during biglaw (provided I get it).
The advice here was SUPER helpful, thank you everyone who contributed!!

damn..mich was that badd..hopefuly the atmosphere is better at preview