Lay prestige Forum

[Hikikomorist]

Also, lol at the person who said Berkeley is no more well-known/prestigious as an institution than Michigan/UVA. The undergrad has been the #1 public school in the US for like thirty straight years, and virtually every grad program on the campus is ranked in the top ten in its field.

When I was applying to college, US News had UVA as the #1 public college in the country. Just saying.

I'll send you a "Happy 60th" birthday card if you can just provide me with an address.

ETA: Just looked it up, and UC Berkeley has been #1 for 18 straight years. Maybe UVA randomly tied it one year a decade ago--much like UT tied GULC a few years ago--but everyone knows it's Berkeley and everyone else for public schools.

UVA was #1 outright for a few years in the mid-late 90s (my high school days), and was at least tied post-2000. For obvious reasons I haven't really followed the rankings since then (nor do I have much knowledge of what they were prior). Maybe if your bubble is NorCal it's "Berkeley and everyone else" - sounds like the arrogant crap someone from there would say...but try going to DC and insinuating that UVA is in the bottom tier of public schools.

I don't think he was saying that it's in the bottom tier of public schools...Berkeley is just clearly above the rest. My personal impression is that looking at the schools as a whole, it's something like Berkeley > UCLA/Michigan/UVA > the rest, although for grad programs generally, UCLA/Michigan probably have stronger grad programs than UVA.

I don't think this is a very common view outside of CA (and maybe the West Coast generally), and I struggle to understand how they would justify such a view statistically. I mean, I've heard the claims about earning potential for the subset of Berkeley grads with certain majors, but I've never seen a credible, comprehensive comparison with other schools--as opposed to what's available for comparing admissions selectivity/student body quality.

I'm talking more about how like 100% of Berkeley grad programs are in the top 10 or whatever. I think Michigan/UCLA also have really high percentages for grad programs in the top 15. Michigan is mainly known for its med school/engineering/sciences. UCLA has really good med school/science programs too. For admissions selectivity on undergrad level, I think Berkeley is still more selective than the rest.

USNews also does a global rankings here:
http://www.usnews.com/education/best-gl ... ngs?page=2
- Berkeley is #3
- UCLA is #8
-Michigan is #17
- Virginia is #94...so not exactly on the same level.

I think a big part of international rankings is research/science focused though, so that's probably why UVA lags behind the others.

I don't know why people get offended by this - if you look at all grad program rankings (and frankly even undergrad rankings) Berkeley is above the others.

Schools that focus on science/engineering/med are obviously going to have higher starting salaries at both undergrad/grad levels - so of course schools that focus on basket weaving or whatever, are going to lag behind others in placement.

I don't think rankings for graduate programs or international rankings matter much, if at all, for lay prestige. In fact, I just checked, and the rankings you cited listed University of Washington ahead of both Yale and Princeton, and UCSD ahead of Duke. Pretty sure that alone makes it a fucking joke.

[snm263]

Maybe I'm bias because of my location, but I feel like Georgetown, Cornell, Vanderbilt, WashU, William and Mary would all be overrated by laymen standards, while UChicago and NYU would be underrated by laymen standards

Coming from NYC - I 100% agree

[hlsperson123]

This thread has been made numerous times, but I'll bite. As another poster previously mentioned, lay prestige does not only account for the law school, but all of the institutions' schools (undergrad, business, law, medical, dental, etc).
My rankings (I'm from the Northeast, fwiw)
1. Harvard
2. Yale and Stanford
3. Columbia and Chicago
4. Duke and Penn
5. Northwestern
6. Cornell
7. Georgetown and Berkeley

non-prestigious T14 law schools: Michigan, NYU and UVA

I don't think Berkeley has any more prestige than Michigan/UVA.

I'm not one to care about lay prestige, but I need to weigh in here to say that is one of the dumbest things I've read on the forum in a while. Berkeley has been the best public school in the nation for at least 30 years, in virtually every field. Yes, Berkeley/Mich/UVA are peer law schools (and Mich used to be better), but if you consider the institutions as a whole it isn't even close. Look at any national or international ranking for proof.

http://www.shanghairanking.com/

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandrevie ... iversities

http://cwur.org/2015/

And as for splitting hairs between undergraduate and graduate rankings, I hardly think laypeople are going to do that.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Yet again, though, this is all regional. No one where I grew up in New England knew that Berkeley was anything other than a state school, like U Mass.

[hlsperson123]

Yet again, though, this is all regional. No one where I grew up in New England knew that Berkeley was anything other than a state school, like U Mass.

That's fair. In any case, the whole concept of "lay" prestige is so amorphous and subjective to render it basically meaningless. I actually feel dirty for joining this thread.

[Hikikomorist]

This thread has been made numerous times, but I'll bite. As another poster previously mentioned, lay prestige does not only account for the law school, but all of the institutions' schools (undergrad, business, law, medical, dental, etc).
My rankings (I'm from the Northeast, fwiw)
1. Harvard
2. Yale and Stanford
3. Columbia and Chicago
4. Duke and Penn
5. Northwestern
6. Cornell
7. Georgetown and Berkeley

non-prestigious T14 law schools: Michigan, NYU and UVA

I don't think Berkeley has any more prestige than Michigan/UVA.

I'm not one to care about lay prestige, but I need to weigh in here to say that is one of the dumbest things I've read on the forum in a while. Berkeley has been the best public school in the nation for at least 30 years, in virtually every field. Yes, Berkeley/Mich/UVA are peer law schools (and Mich used to be better), but if you consider the institutions as a whole it isn't even close. Look at any national or international ranking for proof.

http://www.shanghairanking.com/

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandrevie ... iversities

http://cwur.org/2015/

And as for splitting hairs between undergraduate and graduate rankings, I hardly think laypeople are going to do that.

My point was that lay prestige is determined almost exclusively by UG ranking. No one cares that this school or that school has a really strong psychology graduate program. I also insist that lay prestige follows USNWR rankings far better than any others, especially the international ones. The USNWR ranking suggests Berkeley, UVA, and Michigan are all in the same tier, surprisingly with UCLA (a very rapid ascent, I think).

It's also worth looking at the numbers for the three student bodies. If Berkeley is in a tier above, why can't it get better students? The students at Berkeley sure look identical to those at the supposedly lower-tier UVA and Michigan. Wonder why that is.

[Hikikomorist]

Yet again, though, this is all regional. No one where I grew up in New England knew that Berkeley was anything other than a state school, like U Mass.

I think this is going too far in the other direction. I grew up on the East Coast, and people definitely recognized Berkeley as one of the better state schools.

[hlsperson123]

This thread has been made numerous times, but I'll bite. As another poster previously mentioned, lay prestige does not only account for the law school, but all of the institutions' schools (undergrad, business, law, medical, dental, etc).
My rankings (I'm from the Northeast, fwiw)
1. Harvard
2. Yale and Stanford
3. Columbia and Chicago
4. Duke and Penn
5. Northwestern
6. Cornell
7. Georgetown and Berkeley

non-prestigious T14 law schools: Michigan, NYU and UVA

I don't think Berkeley has any more prestige than Michigan/UVA.

I'm not one to care about lay prestige, but I need to weigh in here to say that is one of the dumbest things I've read on the forum in a while. Berkeley has been the best public school in the nation for at least 30 years, in virtually every field. Yes, Berkeley/Mich/UVA are peer law schools (and Mich used to be better), but if you consider the institutions as a whole it isn't even close. Look at any national or international ranking for proof.

http://www.shanghairanking.com/

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandrevie ... iversities

http://cwur.org/2015/

And as for splitting hairs between undergraduate and graduate rankings, I hardly think laypeople are going to do that.

My point was that lay prestige is determined almost exclusively by UG ranking. No one cares that this school or that school has a really strong psychology graduate program. I also insist that lay prestige follows USNWR rankings far better than any others, especially the international ones. The USNWR ranking suggests Berkeley, UVA, and Michigan are all in the same tier, surprisingly with UCLA (a very rapid ascent, I think).

It's also worth looking at the numbers for the three student bodies. If Berkeley is in a tier above, why can't it get better students? The students at Berkeley sure look identical to those at the supposedly lower-tier UVA and Michigan. Wonder why that is.

Lay prestige is not determined by any ranking. No sane person goes to USNWR every March and checks up on the new rankings. Or even knows what USNWR is, for that matter. And normal people certainly don't go and compare undergraduate student medians. I use rankings as evidence to the extent that they reflect a school's reputation. And rankings are a reasonable metric for that because the largest component of them is a peer review score. Looking at these scores, it's clear that Berkeley comes out ahead. Granted, peer reviewers (i.e., professors) aren't lay people. But it's the best quantitative evidence we have, and it sure beats our personal anecdotes one way or another.

In fact, isolating for the peer review score illustrates my point:

http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/c ... -officials

[Hikikomorist]

This thread has been made numerous times, but I'll bite. As another poster previously mentioned, lay prestige does not only account for the law school, but all of the institutions' schools (undergrad, business, law, medical, dental, etc).
My rankings (I'm from the Northeast, fwiw)
1. Harvard
2. Yale and Stanford
3. Columbia and Chicago
4. Duke and Penn
5. Northwestern
6. Cornell
7. Georgetown and Berkeley

non-prestigious T14 law schools: Michigan, NYU and UVA

I don't think Berkeley has any more prestige than Michigan/UVA.

I'm not one to care about lay prestige, but I need to weigh in here to say that is one of the dumbest things I've read on the forum in a while. Berkeley has been the best public school in the nation for at least 30 years, in virtually every field. Yes, Berkeley/Mich/UVA are peer law schools (and Mich used to be better), but if you consider the institutions as a whole it isn't even close. Look at any national or international ranking for proof.

http://www.shanghairanking.com/

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandrevie ... iversities

http://cwur.org/2015/

And as for splitting hairs between undergraduate and graduate rankings, I hardly think laypeople are going to do that.

My point was that lay prestige is determined almost exclusively by UG ranking. No one cares that this school or that school has a really strong psychology graduate program. I also insist that lay prestige follows USNWR rankings far better than any others, especially the international ones. The USNWR ranking suggests Berkeley, UVA, and Michigan are all in the same tier, surprisingly with UCLA (a very rapid ascent, I think).

It's also worth looking at the numbers for the three student bodies. If Berkeley is in a tier above, why can't it get better students? The students at Berkeley sure look identical to those at the supposedly lower-tier UVA and Michigan. Wonder why that is.

Lay prestige is not determined by any ranking. No sane person goes to USNWR every March and checks up on the new rankings. Or even knows what USNWR is, for that matter. And normal people certainly don't go and compare undergraduate student medians. I use rankings as evidence to the extent that they reflect a school's reputation. And rankings are a reasonable metric for that because the largest component of them is a peer review score. Looking at these scores, it's clear that Berkeley comes out ahead. Granted, peer reviewers (i.e., professors) aren't lay people, but it's the best quantitative evidence we have.

In fact, isolating for the peer review score illustrates my point:

http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/c ... -officials

I was trying to say that the USNWR reflects lay prestige better than any other, not that it determines it. Poor wording on my part.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Yet again, though, this is all regional. No one where I grew up in New England knew that Berkeley was anything other than a state school, like U Mass.

I think this is going too far in the other direction. I grew up on the East Coast, and people definitely recognized Berkeley as one of the better state schools.

Again, regional. My high school sent close to double-digits to Harvard every year; Berkeley didn't mean anything to them, nor did UVA or Michigan. My point isn't that Berkeley (etc) are worse than (whichever school you want), just that there is no fixed clear hierarchy of lay prestige and it's silly to try to create one.

[BillClinton Jr]

This is a really interesting thread just to get some perspective on how other people in this process define lay prestige and rank it. I'm from the midwest and got into Duke, Cornell, Vandy and Texas. Folks bit hard for Cornell and are still trying to get me to go there (mostly because of the Ivy prestige) but it seems like professionally (talking to lawyers and law students) Duke is better professionally (prestige in the field and placement numbers). People don't care about UT but think Vandy is practically Ivy League so it definitely is interesting to think about what factors go into lay prestige. I won't lie: lay prestige matters a smidgen especially as a first gen/URM student.

[KissMyAxe]

Yet again, though, this is all regional. No one where I grew up in New England knew that Berkeley was anything other than a state school, like U Mass.

I think this is going too far in the other direction. I grew up on the East Coast, and people definitely recognized Berkeley as one of the better state schools.

Again, regional. My high school sent close to double-digits to Harvard every year; Berkeley didn't mean anything to them, nor did UVA or Michigan. My point isn't that Berkeley (etc) are worse than (whichever school you want), just that there is no fixed clear hierarchy of lay prestige and it's silly to try to create one.

Agreed. From the Southern East Coast, from a high school that I don't think has ever sent someone to the Ivy League. We were definitely as "lay" as it gets. It's entirely regional. I had never even heard of Berkeley until sometime in college. And was only vaguely aware of Stanford because of football. Our lay prestige was basically Harvard>>>>Yale>Duke>Vanderbilt>local state schools. Lay prestige is entirely based where you live and grow up, with people from more educated or affluent backgrounds knowing more about other schools. Though I would say Harvard is king no matter where you go.

[Leonardo DiCaprio]

having a cool sounding name is key to lay prestige. "university of [whatever]" does not sound very prestigious. university with directions in its name does not sound very prestigious. think northwestern.

[A. Nony Mouse]

having a cool sounding name is key to lay prestige. "university of [whatever]" does not sound very prestigious. university with directions in its name does not sound very prestigious. think northwestern.

This is just silly.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

having a cool sounding name is key to lay prestige. "university of [whatever]" does not sound very prestigious. university with directions in its name does not sound very prestigious. think northwestern.

Maybe, I think people confuse Northwestern with Northeastern or just have no idea what it is.

Where I'm from Vanderbilt doesn't mean anything - it must be a Southern thing.

I will say everyone confuses Penn with Penn State - that's almost a given.

[kepfd24]

Yet again, though, this is all regional. No one where I grew up in New England knew that Berkeley was anything other than a state school, like U Mass.

I think this is going too far in the other direction. I grew up on the East Coast, and people definitely recognized Berkeley as one of the better state schools.

Again, regional. My high school sent close to double-digits to Harvard every year; Berkeley didn't mean anything to them, nor did UVA or Michigan. My point isn't that Berkeley (etc) are worse than (whichever school you want), just that there is no fixed clear hierarchy of lay prestige and it's silly to try to create one.

That's crazy that double digits go to harvard and yet that well-to-do of a place wouldn't know the quality of those other fantastic institutions.

And to chip in with the thread: something that surprised me is the lay prestige of NYU in New York. Many of the New Yorkers I've spoken to thing NYU Law>CLS Law, which really surprised me

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Yet again, though, this is all regional. No one where I grew up in New England knew that Berkeley was anything other than a state school, like U Mass.

I think this is going too far in the other direction. I grew up on the East Coast, and people definitely recognized Berkeley as one of the better state schools.

Again, regional. My high school sent close to double-digits to Harvard every year; Berkeley didn't mean anything to them, nor did UVA or Michigan. My point isn't that Berkeley (etc) are worse than (whichever school you want), just that there is no fixed clear hierarchy of lay prestige and it's silly to try to create one.

That's crazy that double digits go to harvard and yet that well-to-do of a place wouldn't know the quality of those other fantastic institutions.

And to chip in with the thread: something that surprised me is the lay prestige of NYU in New York. Many of the New Yorkers I've spoken to thing NYU Law>CLS Law, which really surprised me

I was doing some pro bono work at a non profit in NYC and someone confused NYLS with NYU....wtf? (Not a lawyer, but an admin).

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

This is a really interesting thread just to get some perspective on how other people in this process define lay prestige and rank it. I'm from the midwest and got into Duke, Cornell, Vandy and Texas. Folks bit hard for Cornell and are still trying to get me to go there (mostly because of the Ivy prestige) but it seems like professionally (talking to lawyers and law students) Duke is better professionally (prestige in the field and placement numbers). People don't care about UT but think Vandy is practically Ivy League so it definitely is interesting to think about what factors go into lay prestige. I won't lie: lay prestige matters a smidgen especially as a first gen/URM student.

Sometimes you just have to not listen to people around you who don't know anything. My parents (although well educated - but in another industry-and from a relatively well off background) told me to go somewhere else because they didn't know the legal field well enough. I ended up just deciding on my own where to go, not really caring what they thought.

Also in the real world, what matters is how much money you have, not much else. So if you aren't going to give me money/get me rich, I generally don't care what your opinions are. Why bother caring what people who aren't going to give you $$$ and get you rich think? What's the point?

[jbagelboy]

This is a really interesting thread just to get some perspective on how other people in this process define lay prestige and rank it. I'm from the midwest and got into Duke, Cornell, Vandy and Texas. Folks bit hard for Cornell and are still trying to get me to go there (mostly because of the Ivy prestige) but it seems like professionally (talking to lawyers and law students) Duke is better professionally (prestige in the field and placement numbers). People don't care about UT but think Vandy is practically Ivy League so it definitely is interesting to think about what factors go into lay prestige. I won't lie: lay prestige matters a smidgen especially as a first gen/URM student.

Okay the issue here isn't only/really that lay prestige has some value, its that law school isn't where you want to look for it. Go to a selective private college if you want to mix and mingle with people from historically important families and tap into "prestige" (although that's a game you'll never win). By law school its too late. Which is why all of these threads are so silly here and better placed, albeit still silly, in collegeconfidential, where its not just about placement and amorpheous factors like signaling and recognition play some role.

[krads153]

This is a really interesting thread just to get some perspective on how other people in this process define lay prestige and rank it. I'm from the midwest and got into Duke, Cornell, Vandy and Texas. Folks bit hard for Cornell and are still trying to get me to go there (mostly because of the Ivy prestige) but it seems like professionally (talking to lawyers and law students) Duke is better professionally (prestige in the field and placement numbers). People don't care about UT but think Vandy is practically Ivy League so it definitely is interesting to think about what factors go into lay prestige. I won't lie: lay prestige matters a smidgen especially as a first gen/URM student.

Okay the issue here isn't only/really that lay prestige has some value, its that law school isn't where you want to look for it. Go to a selective private college if you want to mix and mingle with people from historically important families and tap into "prestige" (although that's a game you'll never win). By law school its too late. Which is why all of these threads are so silly here and better placed, albeit still silly, in collegeconfidential, where its not just about placement and amorpheous factors like signaling and recognition play some role.

I don't know about historically significant families (there probably aren't any in law school), but I knew a lot of really rich kids in law school (probably new money though) and some kids of big Hollywood celebs. I went to a lower T-14 (and before anyone asks, not Duke) where I didn't really expect so many rich kids or kids with famous parents. Some fly under the radar - you wouldn't know unless you know and/or look at their surname.

[jnwa]

having a cool sounding name is key to lay prestige. "university of [whatever]" does not sound very prestigious. university with directions in its name does not sound very prestigious. think northwestern.

Maybe, I think people confuse Northwestern with Northeastern or just have no idea what it is.

Where I'm from Vanderbilt doesn't mean anything - it must be a Southern thing.

I will say everyone confuses Penn with Penn State - that's almost a given.

Im Canadian...when i was first applying to schools i was just gunna blanket the t14. A few days after my apps go complete i get an offer of admission with a full ride from ..Penn STATE.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

having a cool sounding name is key to lay prestige. "university of [whatever]" does not sound very prestigious. university with directions in its name does not sound very prestigious. think northwestern.

Maybe, I think people confuse Northwestern with Northeastern or just have no idea what it is.

Where I'm from Vanderbilt doesn't mean anything - it must be a Southern thing.

I will say everyone confuses Penn with Penn State - that's almost a given.

Im Canadian...when i was first applying to schools i was just gunna blanket the t14. A few days after my apps go complete i get an offer of admission with a full ride from ..Penn STATE.

lol Even here in NYC tons of people confuse Penn for Penn State.

On the west coast (where I'm from) nobody knows what the fuck Penn is. Supposedly a lot of Penn kids have a huge chip on their shoulder over that....always fun ragging on them IRL.