The University of Idaho v. Notre Dame Forum

[03152016]

yeah that horse died of blunt force trauma hours ago

[BigZuck]

Notre Dame is probably the more recognized school.

FWIW I'm probably more with Max than most people seem to be ITT

Anyway, my whole thing is this: I think Idaho (and really any regional school that is the strongest in its state) is worth it if its cheap (meaning full ride or damn near close to it). But, you have to know what you're getting into, what it means to be a lawyer and what it takes to become one and how much you're likely to get paid. That means not being the type of person who wonders whether they should go to Notre Dame if they want a job in Idaho. You need to be ready to hustle your butt off from pretty much day one to snag one of those small law/local gov type jobs which is by far your most likely outcome if you can get a legal job at all. It's not as simple as "50% become lawyers, just finish in the top 50% of your class." There will be kids at the top who get nothing and kids at the bottom who get some (relatively) good stuff. You're going to get a job via connections, dedication to the cause, luck, and most of all, HUSTLE. Your grades won't matter nearly as much at a school like this.

If an entering student understands all that and is willing to do all that work and is cool with that 30-50Kish job then it's probably worth spending 60K. If that person is just going because they want to wear a suit or to get a "good job" or whatever then they should stay away. IMO, that's probably where most of that 50% of the class who doesn't get a good outcome goes wrong.

[PepperJack]

The issue isn't, like some have said, that you can't be a good lawyer coming out of a shitty school. The issue is you may never have the chance to be. Helping Johnny get his 60 in a school zone reduced to points isn't going to get you on CNN. In the baby boomer era there was a shortage of lawyers so talent and work ethic won out. These things still matter, but only half of all lawyers will be in a position where talent and work ethic are applicable. It's not elitist, it's objective logic. Ignoring the objective for the subjective is elitist.

well said

Said for the first time ever about a Pepperjack post

Just because I don't subscribe to groupthink doesn't mean my perspective is less relevant. In my opinion, the "you're wrong because most of us think you're wrong" evidence is weaker than anecdotal evidence. I'm up for rethinking any position I have ever taken if given evidence. Be less close-minded.

It also doesn't matter that Notre Dame is a more recognized school. It's a trap school in that the students getting great jobs coming out of it generally need the same grades they would have needed at the local TT. You're not below medianing big law from there, and I don't know if there's a substantial IQ difference b/w an ND student and an HYS student.

[McAvoy]

Just because I don't subscribe to groupthink doesn't mean my perspective is less relevant. In my opinion, the "you're wrong because most of us think you're wrong" evidence is weaker than anecdotal evidence.

TFT bro I never thought about it like that

[andythefir]

I graduated in May from ND and I went home to New Mexico to work in a very small town DA's office (if I pass the bar). I would like to add some things I have not seen anyone bring up yet:

(1) I got a $10k/year scholarship and lived cheaply. After ND's very generous LRAP, my monthly loan payment is around $400/month. The exact small town where I work is in the middle of an oil boom, which makes housing obscenely expensive, but I am still able to make ends meet. ND is very, very wealthy, and they give a big hand to students working in public interest.

(2) I was around top 10% of my class and came thisclose to being unemployed because I knew I wanted to be in NM. The state clerkships, "big" firms (70-100 people), and other jobs law students think they're supposed to get will almost all go to local students. I even went to the local school for undergrad, but no one cared. You were either a law grad from the local school or you may as well have never been to the state. Specific advice to everyone: if you don't currently have a job, apply to PD and DA offices in tiny towns in the gross parts of your state. There are jobs there.

(3) The main advantage ND has over local schools is access to top firms and top clerkships. Specifically, lots of NDLS professors have the ear of conservative judges. ND has 2 SCOTUS clerks this year. My class had an obscene number of federal clerks (I'd guess 15-20 in a class of 180). Local schools can't get close to that.

[eriedoctrine]

Notre Dame is probably the more recognized school.

i thought your comment was funny before you scrubbed it

Decided that this thread is actually entertaining.
I'm also running out of popcorn...

[whitespider]

Decided that this thread is actually entertaining.
I'm also running out of popcorn...

I know, right? I leave for a bit and things get really good.

[PepperJack]

I graduated in May from ND and I went home to New Mexico to work in a very small town DA's office (if I pass the bar). I would like to add some things I have not seen anyone bring up yet:

(1) I got a $10k/year scholarship and lived cheaply. After ND's very generous LRAP, my monthly loan payment is around $400/month. The exact small town where I work is in the middle of an oil boom, which makes housing obscenely expensive, but I am still able to make ends meet. ND is very, very wealthy, and they give a big hand to students working in public interest.

(2) I was around top 10% of my class and came thisclose to being unemployed because I knew I wanted to be in NM. The state clerkships, "big" firms (70-100 people), and other jobs law students think they're supposed to get will almost all go to local students. I even went to the local school for undergrad, but no one cared. You were either a law grad from the local school or you may as well have never been to the state. Specific advice to everyone: if you don't currently have a job, apply to PD and DA offices in tiny towns in the gross parts of your state. There are jobs there.

(3) The main advantage ND has over local schools is access to top firms and top clerkships. Specifically, lots of NDLS professors have the ear of conservative judges. ND has 2 SCOTUS clerks this year. My class had an obscene number of federal clerks (I'd guess 15-20 in a class of 180). Local schools can't get close to that.

This is what my point was. You are the exact type of person who would have gotten that NM job if you had an analogous performance at a t-14 school. ND isn't really national. Just because a school has grads working in every state doesn't mean they're national from an employment perspective. It only means that their class is geographically diverse. Many are returning to less than desirable jobs. Big law + clerkship + LRAP public service are all that matter.

[pancakes3]

I graduated in May from ND and I went home to New Mexico to work in a very small town DA's office (if I pass the bar). I would like to add some things I have not seen anyone bring up yet:

(1) I got a $10k/year scholarship and lived cheaply. After ND's very generous LRAP, my monthly loan payment is around $400/month. The exact small town where I work is in the middle of an oil boom, which makes housing obscenely expensive, but I am still able to make ends meet. ND is very, very wealthy, and they give a big hand to students working in public interest.

(2) I was around top 10% of my class and came thisclose to being unemployed because I knew I wanted to be in NM. The state clerkships, "big" firms (70-100 people), and other jobs law students think they're supposed to get will almost all go to local students. I even went to the local school for undergrad, but no one cared. You were either a law grad from the local school or you may as well have never been to the state. Specific advice to everyone: if you don't currently have a job, apply to PD and DA offices in tiny towns in the gross parts of your state. There are jobs there.

(3) The main advantage ND has over local schools is access to top firms and top clerkships. Specifically, lots of NDLS professors have the ear of conservative judges. ND has 2 SCOTUS clerks this year. My class had an obscene number of federal clerks (I'd guess 15-20 in a class of 180). Local schools can't get close to that.

This is what my point was. You are the exact type of person who would have gotten that NM job if you had an analogous performance at a t-14 school. ND isn't really national. Just because a school has grads working in every state doesn't mean they're national from an employment perspective. It only means that their class is geographically diverse. Many are returning to less than desirable jobs. Big law + clerkship + LRAP public service are all that matter.

Not really seeing your perspective, PJ.

My takeaway from supra was that Andy the Fir would have been equally well (if not better) served going on a full ride to New Mexico Law since both give about the same chance of landing that PI gig in NM. He'd actually be worse off if he paid sticker for a T14, got top 10%, and gotten the same NM job.

[McAvoy]

I graduated in May from ND and I went home to New Mexico to work in a very small town DA's office (if I pass the bar). I would like to add some things I have not seen anyone bring up yet:

(1) I got a $10k/year scholarship and lived cheaply. After ND's very generous LRAP, my monthly loan payment is around $400/month. The exact small town where I work is in the middle of an oil boom, which makes housing obscenely expensive, but I am still able to make ends meet. ND is very, very wealthy, and they give a big hand to students working in public interest.

(2) I was around top 10% of my class and came thisclose to being unemployed because I knew I wanted to be in NM. The state clerkships, "big" firms (70-100 people), and other jobs law students think they're supposed to get will almost all go to local students. I even went to the local school for undergrad, but no one cared. You were either a law grad from the local school or you may as well have never been to the state. Specific advice to everyone: if you don't currently have a job, apply to PD and DA offices in tiny towns in the gross parts of your state. There are jobs there.

(3) The main advantage ND has over local schools is access to top firms and top clerkships. Specifically, lots of NDLS professors have the ear of conservative judges. ND has 2 SCOTUS clerks this year. My class had an obscene number of federal clerks (I'd guess 15-20 in a class of 180). Local schools can't get close to that.

This is what my point was. You are the exact type of person who would have gotten that NM job if you had an analogous performance at a t-14 school. ND isn't really national. Just because a school has grads working in every state doesn't mean they're national from an employment perspective. It only means that their class is geographically diverse. Many are returning to less than desirable jobs. Big law + clerkship + LRAP public service are all that matter.

Not really seeing your perspective, PJ.

My takeaway from supra was that Andy the Fir would have been equally well (if not better) served going on a full ride to New Mexico Law since both give about the same chance of landing that PI gig in NM. He'd actually be worse off if he paid sticker for a T14, got top 10%, and gotten the same NM job.

Dude you have to attack the content of his argument -- you can't just disagree and fall into the "everything PJ posts is stupid and nobody ever agrees with him" groupthink.

[PepperJack]

I graduated in May from ND and I went home to New Mexico to work in a very small town DA's office (if I pass the bar). I would like to add some things I have not seen anyone bring up yet:

(1) I got a $10k/year scholarship and lived cheaply. After ND's very generous LRAP, my monthly loan payment is around $400/month. The exact small town where I work is in the middle of an oil boom, which makes housing obscenely expensive, but I am still able to make ends meet. ND is very, very wealthy, and they give a big hand to students working in public interest.

(2) I was around top 10% of my class and came thisclose to being unemployed because I knew I wanted to be in NM. The state clerkships, "big" firms (70-100 people), and other jobs law students think they're supposed to get will almost all go to local students. I even went to the local school for undergrad, but no one cared. You were either a law grad from the local school or you may as well have never been to the state. Specific advice to everyone: if you don't currently have a job, apply to PD and DA offices in tiny towns in the gross parts of your state. There are jobs there.

(3) The main advantage ND has over local schools is access to top firms and top clerkships. Specifically, lots of NDLS professors have the ear of conservative judges. ND has 2 SCOTUS clerks this year. My class had an obscene number of federal clerks (I'd guess 15-20 in a class of 180). Local schools can't get close to that.

This is what my point was. You are the exact type of person who would have gotten that NM job if you had an analogous performance at a t-14 school. ND isn't really national. Just because a school has grads working in every state doesn't mean they're national from an employment perspective. It only means that their class is geographically diverse. Many are returning to less than desirable jobs. Big law + clerkship + LRAP public service are all that matter.

Not really seeing your perspective, PJ.

My takeaway from supra was that Andy the Fir would have been equally well (if not better) served going on a full ride to New Mexico Law since both give about the same chance of landing that PI gig in NM. He'd actually be worse off if he paid sticker for a T14, got top 10%, and gotten the same NM job.

I think if they were top quarter at Chicago through Cornell they would have gotten the closest thing to big law that NM has to offer. In the minds of many, they would be leaving NM to go to ND for the chance of getting Chicago. I may be outed already so don't want to give away info about peers who don't deserve to be outed along with me. However, median at one of these schools is often sufficient to get back. Most of the t-14 median that strikeout are those that don't have the small city tie. My overarching point is that schools like ND put students in the very law review or bust predicament they would be in at the local TT, but for more money, and against a much smarter pool of candidates. 3 points on the LSAT isn't enough to extract a meaningful distinction in aptitude. I would argue that 10 to 15 points is.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I honestly don't think NM or Idaho care about Cornell or Chicago, though. They're both really really small. Anyone who could get to Cornell or Chicago and knew they wanted NM/Idaho really is just as well off going to UNM or U of I (for free, where they're probably going to be near the top of their class. obviously you can't guarantee that but the LSAT/GPA differences are pretty large).

[Rigo]

Specific advice to everyone: if you don't currently have a job, apply to PD and DA offices in tiny towns in the gross parts of your state. There are jobs there.

My favorite takeaway from TLS thus far.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

I honestly don't think NM or Idaho care about Cornell or Chicago, though. They're both really really small. Anyone who could get to Cornell or Chicago and knew they wanted NM/Idaho really is just as well off going to UNM or U of I (for free, where they're probably going to be near the top of their class. obviously you can't guarantee that but the LSAT/GPA differences are pretty large).

+1

I'm from a part of the country that is so backward that good is bad. Excellent east coast school? Probably indoctrinated with a bunch of liberal horseshit.

If you want to live in BFE, go to school in BFE.

[andythefir]

I graduated in May from ND and I went home to New Mexico to work in a very small town DA's office (if I pass the bar). I would like to add some things I have not seen anyone bring up yet:

(1) I got a $10k/year scholarship and lived cheaply. After ND's very generous LRAP, my monthly loan payment is around $400/month. The exact small town where I work is in the middle of an oil boom, which makes housing obscenely expensive, but I am still able to make ends meet. ND is very, very wealthy, and they give a big hand to students working in public interest.

(2) I was around top 10% of my class and came thisclose to being unemployed because I knew I wanted to be in NM. The state clerkships, "big" firms (70-100 people), and other jobs law students think they're supposed to get will almost all go to local students. I even went to the local school for undergrad, but no one cared. You were either a law grad from the local school or you may as well have never been to the state. Specific advice to everyone: if you don't currently have a job, apply to PD and DA offices in tiny towns in the gross parts of your state. There are jobs there.

(3) The main advantage ND has over local schools is access to top firms and top clerkships. Specifically, lots of NDLS professors have the ear of conservative judges. ND has 2 SCOTUS clerks this year. My class had an obscene number of federal clerks (I'd guess 15-20 in a class of 180). Local schools can't get close to that.

This is what my point was. You are the exact type of person who would have gotten that NM job if you had an analogous performance at a t-14 school. ND isn't really national. Just because a school has grads working in every state doesn't mean they're national from an employment perspective. It only means that their class is geographically diverse. Many are returning to less than desirable jobs. Big law + clerkship + LRAP public service are all that matter.

Not really seeing your perspective, PJ.

My takeaway from supra was that Andy the Fir would have been equally well (if not better) served going on a full ride to New Mexico Law since both give about the same chance of landing that PI gig in NM. He'd actually be worse off if he paid sticker for a T14, got top 10%, and gotten the same NM job.

In addition to loving my time at ND, I now have access to their LRAP program. Like I said, I pay roughly $400 a month, or $4,800 a year. People with "free rides" pay more than that all the time. Plus, ND has programs like paying grads to volunteer until they find something, longer-term named fellowships that let you get experience in niche areas, and a much more flexible degree. If you're 100% sure you wanted to do DA/PD/divorce in a very specific place, then the local school is the only answer. If you're less sure, it's less clear.

Also, the examples of Chicago and Cornell are very illustrative. People out here have never heard of either, but everyone has heard of ND. Prestige is waaay less important to prosecutors than big firm types, but it is a way to separate yourself from the thousands of applicants.

[BigZuck]

I graduated in May from ND and I went home to New Mexico to work in a very small town DA's office (if I pass the bar). I would like to add some things I have not seen anyone bring up yet:

(1) I got a $10k/year scholarship and lived cheaply. After ND's very generous LRAP, my monthly loan payment is around $400/month. The exact small town where I work is in the middle of an oil boom, which makes housing obscenely expensive, but I am still able to make ends meet. ND is very, very wealthy, and they give a big hand to students working in public interest.

(2) I was around top 10% of my class and came thisclose to being unemployed because I knew I wanted to be in NM. The state clerkships, "big" firms (70-100 people), and other jobs law students think they're supposed to get will almost all go to local students. I even went to the local school for undergrad, but no one cared. You were either a law grad from the local school or you may as well have never been to the state. Specific advice to everyone: if you don't currently have a job, apply to PD and DA offices in tiny towns in the gross parts of your state. There are jobs there.

(3) The main advantage ND has over local schools is access to top firms and top clerkships. Specifically, lots of NDLS professors have the ear of conservative judges. ND has 2 SCOTUS clerks this year. My class had an obscene number of federal clerks (I'd guess 15-20 in a class of 180). Local schools can't get close to that.

This is what my point was. You are the exact type of person who would have gotten that NM job if you had an analogous performance at a t-14 school. ND isn't really national. Just because a school has grads working in every state doesn't mean they're national from an employment perspective. It only means that their class is geographically diverse. Many are returning to less than desirable jobs. Big law + clerkship + LRAP public service are all that matter.

Not really seeing your perspective, PJ.

My takeaway from supra was that Andy the Fir would have been equally well (if not better) served going on a full ride to New Mexico Law since both give about the same chance of landing that PI gig in NM. He'd actually be worse off if he paid sticker for a T14, got top 10%, and gotten the same NM job.

In addition to loving my time at ND, I now have access to their LRAP program. Like I said, I pay roughly $400 a month, or $4,800 a year. People with "free rides" pay more than that all the time. Plus, ND has programs like paying grads to volunteer until they find something, longer-term named fellowships that let you get experience in niche areas, and a much more flexible degree. If you're 100% sure you wanted to do DA/PD/divorce in a very specific place, then the local school is the only answer. If you're less sure, it's less clear.

Also, the examples of Chicago and Cornell are very illustrative. People out here have never heard of either, but everyone has heard of ND. Prestige is waaay less important to prosecutors than big firm types, but it is a way to separate yourself from the thousands of applicants.

People who do legal hiring in your area prefer ND law grads to Chicago/Cornell grads? U srs? How have they not heard of Chicago or Cornell?

[McAvoy]

Also, the examples of Chicago and Cornell are very illustrative. People out here have never heard of either, but everyone has heard of ND. Prestige is waaay less important to prosecutors than big firm types, but it is a way to separate yourself from the thousands of applicants.

Sorry are you arguing then that lay prestige is more important than actual prestige for getting a job from lawyers?

ETA: scooped by BZ

[A. Nony Mouse]

People who do legal hiring in your area prefer ND law grads to Chicago/Cornell grads? U srs? How have they not heard of Chicago or Cornell?

There are parts of the world where this is the case, honestly. Or they just don't care.

[andythefir]

Also, the examples of Chicago and Cornell are very illustrative. People out here have never heard of either, but everyone has heard of ND. Prestige is waaay less important to prosecutors than big firm types, but it is a way to separate yourself from the thousands of applicants.

Sorry are you arguing then that lay prestige is more important than actual prestige for getting a job from lawyers?

ETA: scooped by BZ

In my experience it's less "I think Cornell students are of a lower caliber than ND" and more there's just less to talk about when you either sit down to an interview or see someone at the water cooler. They may have heard of Cornell, they may not, but they certainly know more about ND and are much more likely to know people who went there.

[BigZuck]

Also, the examples of Chicago and Cornell are very illustrative. People out here have never heard of either, but everyone has heard of ND. Prestige is waaay less important to prosecutors than big firm types, but it is a way to separate yourself from the thousands of applicants.

Sorry are you arguing then that lay prestige is more important than actual prestige for getting a job from lawyers?

ETA: scooped by BZ

In my experience it's less "I think Cornell students are of a lower caliber than ND" and more there's just less to talk about when you either sit down to an interview or see someone at the water cooler. They may have heard of Cornell, they may not, but they certainly know more about ND and are much more likely to know people who went there.

wut

What less do they have to talk about? The movie Rudy? These are legal hirers you're talking about, yes? Not random people who have only heard of colleges with prominent sports teams?

This ND shilling is kind of weird to me TBH

[andythefir]

[quote=
wut

What less do they have to talk about? The movie Rudy? These are legal hirers you're talking about, yes? Not random people who have only heard of colleges with prominent sports teams?

This ND shilling is kind of weird to me TBH[/quote]

I will definitely admit to being irrationally pro-ND, and I will also admit my experience may not be at all representative. But almost every (legal employment) interview I did involved talking about ND football, college football more generally, the person's nephew who went to ND, the brutal South Bend winters, etc. People know enough about ND to chat about it, which isn't the case for less famous schools.

[A. Nony Mouse]

ND loyalty is insanely strong. It fosters an identity in a way very few schools do. I don't know anyone who's rabid about having gone to Cornell or Chicago, whereas ND people are super rabid about having gone to ND. (sorry, andy, I mean that in a positive way. ) And that loyalty tends to extend to anyone who's connected to someone who went there.

I'm not saying it's a reason to go to ND over Cornell or Chicago, but I don't going think going to Cornell or Chicago would help you more in NM or Idaho or the middle of wherever than going to ND would.

[McAvoy]

wut

What less do they have to talk about? The movie Rudy? These are legal hirers you're talking about, yes? Not random people who have only heard of colleges with prominent sports teams?

This ND shilling is kind of weird to me TBH

I will definitely admit to being irrationally pro-ND, and I will also admit my experience may not be at all representative. But almost every (legal employment) interview I did involved talking about ND football, college football more generally, the person's nephew who went to ND, the brutal South Bend winters, etc. People know enough about ND to chat about it, which isn't the case for less famous schools.

Good thing for Harvard they have Legally Blonde

[McAvoy]

How badly would you say the general incompetence of Andy Bernard screws over Cornell grads in middle-of-nowhere legal hiring

[Louis1127]

I honestly don't think NM or Idaho care about Cornell or Chicago, though. They're both really really small. Anyone who could get to Cornell or Chicago and knew they wanted NM/Idaho really is just as well off going to UNM or U of I (for free, where they're probably going to be near the top of their class. obviously you can't guarantee that but the LSAT/GPA differences are pretty large).

+1

I'm from a part of the country that is so backward that good is bad. Excellent east coast school? Probably indoctrinated with a bunch of liberal horseshit.

If you want to live in BFE, go to school in BFE.

Yes, there are areas like this, although I think it is more about being, well, to be blunt, nativist, rather than hating on ppl who went to better schools.