Michigan v.s. Penn Forum

[Onomatopoeia]

^^^^
Firms don't care about how you paid for law school.

I've been told firms would see it as a positive that I didn't pay to go to law school; but if this isn't the case, it's still all good, lol

[jbagelboy]

^^^^
Firms don't care about how you paid for law school.

I've been told firms would see it as a positive that I didn't pay to go to law school; but if this isn't the case, it's still all good, lol

no. why would they care at all. if you have a named scholarship they might notice because it shows you're bright and high achieving, which actually matter; you aren't going to be their personal accountant, fiscal responsibility is totally irrelevant. there are many qualities (punctuality, personal hygiene, the color of your ties, whether you take decaf) that come first

THAT BEING SAID, it's good for you PERSONALLY to have taken the scholarship. It will save you lots of heartbreak down the road.

[Onomatopoeia]

no. why would they care at all. if you have a named scholarship they might notice because it shows you're bright and high achieving, which actually matter; you aren't going to be their personal accountant, fiscal responsibility is totally irrelevant. there are many qualities (punctuality, personal hygiene, the color of your ties, whether you take decaf) that come first

THAT BEING SAID, it's good for you PERSONALLY to have taken the scholarship. It will save you lots of heartbreak down the road.

hope you're right. and yeah, i guess i agree with this 2 a degree. however, i dont think color of tie/coffee preference outweighs showing firms that i am fiscally responsible. i think itll make me easier to be around also, as im guessing ill be happier not drowning in debt. im somewhat banking on the scholarship standing out on my resume as only ~6-8 students have it per graduating class. that being said, i can see it potentially hurting me if my grades in law school aren't on the higher end of the spectrum. the prestige of the degree is a sacrifice i am making, and i think its fair to believe that a scholarship that shows that i turned down offers from more prestigious institutions can help me with firms that put prestige on a pedestal.

people have told me that putting myself through law school is seen as a positive on its face and a good selling point for myself when it comes to interviews but it may well be hearsay. we will see. the feeling of not having to worry about debt alone is priceless and i hope it all works out for me. it was not an easy decision by any means.

[Paul Campos]

People ITT have missed that OP doesn't want NYC big law. Going to Penn at sticker when you don't want NYC big law is a horrible idea. As is the idea of trying to get a job at a big firm because you want to get into a basically imaginary line of work ("sports law.")

Lots of people go to law school not because they want to be lawyers, but because they want to do something fun and/or socially constructive, so they rationalize that decision by taking that something and tacking the word "law" on to it. See:

Sports
Entertainment
International
Human Rights
Environmental

[rickgrimes69]

Not to burst your bubble BornAgain, but to reiterate, exactly nobody will care (or even be aware of) how you paid for law school. Having a named scholarship is a feather in your cap, sure, but it's incredibly marginal when compared to the things firms actually care about (GPA, W/E, LR, etc.)

Also, Mich should be off the table. They aren't going to "pony up" a named scholarship when they've given OP nothing so far. At equal cost, taking Mich over Penn is unjustifiable.

OP I agree with everyone else - you're taking on far too much debt for someone who doesn't have a clue what Biglaw is like. You're young and have (apparently) no valid reason not to sit out a year and retake. Nobody's saying you need a 170+, the lower T14 is throwing around money for people with high GPAs and mid-160 LSATs. I agree that not everybody is capable of a 170, but almost everybody is capable of a mid 160. As someone who currently attends a T14 on a too-small scholarship (because this is apparently relevant to the quality of my advice), retake - if not for yourself, for your wife and your future family.

[ymmv]

People ITT have missed that OP doesn't want NYC big law. Going to Penn at sticker when you don't want NYC big law is a horrible idea. As is the idea of trying to get a job at a big firm because you want to get into a basically imaginary line of work ("sports law.")

Lots of people go to law school not because they want to be lawyers, but because they want to do something fun and/or socially constructive, so they rationalize that decision by taking that something and tacking the word "law" on to it. See:

Sports
Entertainment
International
Human Rights
Environmental

No one has missed this. If you actually read the thread you would see multiple posters repeatedly advising OP that sports law does not exist in any meaningful sense.

But, as usual, your condescending plunge into a conversation you have not read is much appreciated.

[MistakenGenius]

Post removed.

[rayiner]

People ITT have missed that OP doesn't want NYC big law. Going to Penn at sticker when you don't want NYC big law is a horrible idea. As is the idea of trying to get a job at a big firm because you want to get into a basically imaginary line of work ("sports law.")

Lots of people go to law school not because they want to be lawyers, but because they want to do something fun and/or socially constructive, so they rationalize that decision by taking that something and tacking the word "law" on to it. See:

Sports
Entertainment
International
Human Rights
Environmental

This is pervasive even among people who want to do business law. It's like people who are "interested in startups" so they go to a law firm in Silicon Valley. You might do more IPO's versus bond issuances, but that's about the extent of the substantive distinction.

[Onomatopoeia]

Not to burst your bubble BornAgain, but to reiterate, exactly nobody will care (or even be aware of) how you paid for law school. Having a named scholarship is a feather in your cap, sure, but it's incredibly marginal when compared to the things firms actually care about (GPA, W/E, LR, etc.)

.

Are you dense? I plan to list the scholarship and also say that it was a merit based full ride. That one line alone says all it needs to say even if firms never bring up finances, which I doubt they will. To say that the effect would be marginal is foolish. It can have a significant effect for many different reasons and these reasons are far from clear but to say otherwise is dumb.

[NYSprague]

People ITT have missed that OP doesn't want NYC big law. Going to Penn at sticker when you don't want NYC big law is a horrible idea. As is the idea of trying to get a job at a big firm because you want to get into a basically imaginary line of work ("sports law.")

Lots of people go to law school not because they want to be lawyers, but because they want to do something fun and/or socially constructive, so they rationalize that decision by taking that something and tacking the word "law" on to it. See:

Sports
Entertainment
International
Human Rights
Environmental

No one has missed this. If you actually read the thread you would see multiple posters repeatedly advising OP that sports law does not exist in any meaningful sense.

But, as usual, your condescending plunge into a conversation you have not read is much appreciated.

I missed it. Not sure why you are attacking Prof Campos. He was pointing out, which I somehow missed, that OP will need NYC big law to repay his sticker debt, but that isn't his goal.
OPs best chance of repaying his loans is big law, everyone here knows that.

I feel I wasted my time on OP. OP has all the signs of special snowflake syndrome of the worst kind.

[NYSprague]

Not to burst your bubble BornAgain, but to reiterate, exactly nobody will care (or even be aware of) how you paid for law school. Having a named scholarship is a feather in your cap, sure, but it's incredibly marginal when compared to the things firms actually care about (GPA, W/E, LR, etc.)

.

Are you dense? I plan to list the scholarship and also say that it was a merit based full ride. That one line alone says all it needs to say even if firms never bring up finances, which I doubt they will. To say that the effect would be marginal is foolish. It can have a significant effect for many different reasons and these reasons are far from clear but to say otherwise is dumb.

I can't think of anyone in my class of 75-100 people at my firm who went your route. People do, I'm sure, but I wonder how many end up in big law? Maybe because they don't have debt. Or maybe some because they don't get the grades the need? Hard to know.

A scholarship won't help you get a job (outside a very few) ,but without debt it matters less.

[Onomatopoeia]

Not to burst your bubble BornAgain, but to reiterate, exactly nobody will care (or even be aware of) how you paid for law school. Having a named scholarship is a feather in your cap, sure, but it's incredibly marginal when compared to the things firms actually care about (GPA, W/E, LR, etc.)

.

Are you dense? I plan to list the scholarship and also say that it was a merit based full ride. That one line alone says all it needs to say even if firms never bring up finances, which I doubt they will. To say that the effect would be marginal is foolish. It can have a significant effect for many different reasons and these reasons are far from clear but to say otherwise is dumb.

I can't think of anyone in my class of 75-100 people at my firm who went your route. People do, I'm sure, but I wonder how many end up in big law? Maybe because they don't have debt. Or maybe some because they don't get the grades the need? Hard to know.

A scholarship won't help you get a job (outside a very few) ,but without debt it matters less.

A scholarship has a similar but probably smaller effect than the pedigree of the law school you attended. I can think of many reasons this may ruffle some feathers, which is kinda good, imo. I hope more people see more utility in avoiding crippling debt

[ymmv]

Not to burst your bubble BornAgain, but to reiterate, exactly nobody will care (or even be aware of) how you paid for law school. Having a named scholarship is a feather in your cap, sure, but it's incredibly marginal when compared to the things firms actually care about (GPA, W/E, LR, etc.)

.

Are you dense? I plan to list the scholarship and also say that it was a merit based full ride. That one line alone says all it needs to say even if firms never bring up finances, which I doubt they will. To say that the effect would be marginal is foolish. It can have a significant effect for many different reasons and these reasons are far from clear but to say otherwise is dumb.

Yes, it can have the effect of making you look like an insecure 1L compensating for an otherwise mediocre resume by overemphasizing just how well you did on the LSAT, despite it having fuck-all to do with your qualifications at this point.

[Onomatopoeia]

Not to burst your bubble BornAgain, but to reiterate, exactly nobody will care (or even be aware of) how you paid for law school. Having a named scholarship is a feather in your cap, sure, but it's incredibly marginal when compared to the things firms actually care about (GPA, W/E, LR, etc.)

.

Are you dense? I plan to list the scholarship and also say that it was a merit based full ride. That one line alone says all it needs to say even if firms never bring up finances, which I doubt they will. To say that the effect would be marginal is foolish. It can have a significant effect for many different reasons and these reasons are far from clear but to say otherwise is dumb.

Yes, it can have the effect of making you look like an insecure 1L compensating for an otherwise mediocre resume by overemphasizing just how well you did on the LSAT, despite it having fuck-all to do with your qualifications at this point.

Are you saying I should not list it? Bc I've been told that I absolutely shoul d by nearly everyone I've spoken to. I also mentioned that the scholarship is not a catch all. I need the grades to match in law school. Calling me insecure says a lot about u here

[ymmv]

Not to burst your bubble BornAgain, but to reiterate, exactly nobody will care (or even be aware of) how you paid for law school. Having a named scholarship is a feather in your cap, sure, but it's incredibly marginal when compared to the things firms actually care about (GPA, W/E, LR, etc.)

.

Are you dense? I plan to list the scholarship and also say that it was a merit based full ride. That one line alone says all it needs to say even if firms never bring up finances, which I doubt they will. To say that the effect would be marginal is foolish. It can have a significant effect for many different reasons and these reasons are far from clear but to say otherwise is dumb.

Yes, it can have the effect of making you look like an insecure 1L compensating for an otherwise mediocre resume by overemphasizing just how well you did on the LSAT, despite it having fuck-all to do with your qualifications at this point.

Are you saying I should not list it? Bc I've been told that I absolutely shoul d by nearly everyone I've spoken to. I also mentioned that the scholarship is not a catch all. I need the grades to match in law school. Calling me insecure says a lot about u here

There is a difference between mentioning your scholarship by name under Honors vs. providing an entire parenthetical to stress its financial value. Hiring committees will probably already know what it is anyway or can Google it if they don't and actually care.

Obviously list it, just don't make a federal case out of it. There's always a thin line on resumes between highlighting your achievements and looking like an overcompensating gunner.

[Onomatopoeia]

There is a difference between mentioning your scholarship by name under Honors vs. providing an entire parenthetical to stress its financial value. Hiring committees will probably already know what it is anyway or can Google it if they don't and actually care.

Obviously list it, just don't make a federal case out of it. There's always a thin line on resumes between highlighting your achievements and looking like an overcompensating gunner.

All it will say is "name: merit based full tuition scholarship." Does this make me seem like an overcompensating gunner?

[ymmv]

There is a difference between mentioning your scholarship by name under Honors vs. providing an entire parenthetical to stress its financial value. Hiring committees will probably already know what it is anyway or can Google it if they don't and actually care.

Obviously list it, just don't make a federal case out of it. There's always a thin line on resumes between highlighting your achievements and looking like an overcompensating gunner.

All it will say is "name: merit based full tuition scholarship." Does this make me seem like an overcompensating gunner?

It's up to you, dude. It rubs me the wrong way, so I keep it limited to just "Name of Scholarship" of mine. I really do think your grades will speak for themselves where academic achievement is concerned.

It's like, if you already have "summa cum laude" written directly next to your UG degree, it feels really extraneous and kind of obnoxious to me to also put "Graduated with 4.0 GPA, Dean's Distinguished Honor List, X-value Merit Scholarship, John Hieronymus Alumni Award for Academic Excellence, etc. et al" next to it. Anyone who sees summa can already extrapolate all that and will probably move from being slightly impressed to rolling their eyes over the ostentation.

Anyway, your mileage may vary. Write your resume in whatever way you feel comfortable with.

[Onomatopoeia]

I mean, if people are rolling their eyes at like 5 words describing a scholarship, I probably dont wanna work for them. I'll talk to career services or hire a pro to look over it. Maybe my thoughts on this will change. I certainly don't want to come off like a douchbag.

[ymmv]

I am probably making a bigger deal out of this than it deserves. I just get fed up with the constant dick-measuring contests of this profession and have nearly rolled my eyes out of their sockets at the number of times per day random strangers in casual commuter conversation try to regale me with their prestige. The only people worse than law students about this are MBA students, and god help me I will punch the next person who introduces themselves with their ivy pedigree and JP Morgan Leaders Scholarship before I even know their fucking name.

Obviously this is not the same as reporting achievements on a resume but the triggers are hard for me to avoid these days.

TL;DR ignore my venting.

[Onomatopoeia]

I am probably making a bigger deal out of this than it deserves. I just get fed up with the constant dick-measuring contests of this profession and have nearly rolled my eyes out of their sockets at the number of times per day random strangers in casual commuter conversation try to regale me with their prestige. The only people worse than law students about this are MBA students, and god help me I will punch the next person who introduces themselves with their ivy pedigree and JP Morgan Leaders Scholarship before I even know their fucking name.

Obviously this is not the same as reporting achievements on a resume but the triggers are hard for me to avoid these days.

TL;DR ignore my venting.

It's all good bro. It's definitely a thin line like u said. It's a dick measuring contest out there and that's exactly why I feel compelled to worry about these things at all. Ideally I kill it gradewise in law school and none of this matters at all.

[TooOld4This]

I am probably making a bigger deal out of this than it deserves. I just get fed up with the constant dick-measuring contests of this profession and have nearly rolled my eyes out of their sockets at the number of times per day random strangers in casual commuter conversation try to regale me with their prestige. The only people worse than law students about this are MBA students, and god help me I will punch the next person who introduces themselves with their ivy pedigree and JP Morgan Leaders Scholarship before I even know their fucking name.

Obviously this is not the same as reporting achievements on a resume but the triggers are hard for me to avoid these days.

TL;DR ignore my venting.

Get over your too cool for school fear of being seen as a gunner. Listing the name of your scholarship with no context on your resume is not the best move. On the reading end, it communicates to me that you are rather arrogant -- either in assuming that of course everyone knows what the award is, or that I should spend my time googling it. Other than Latin Honors, awards should have a brief description.

Now explaining that you could have gone to X, but instead went to Y because you are more fiscally responsible is a bad move. But don't swing the pendulum in the other direction.

[Power_of_Facing]

Not to burst your bubble BornAgain, but to reiterate, exactly nobody will care (or even be aware of) how you paid for law school. Having a named scholarship is a feather in your cap, sure, but it's incredibly marginal when compared to the things firms actually care about (GPA, W/E, LR, etc.)

.

Are you dense? I plan to list the scholarship and also say that it was a merit based full ride. That one line alone says all it needs to say even if firms never bring up finances, which I doubt they will. To say that the effect would be marginal is foolish. It can have a significant effect for many different reasons and these reasons are far from clear but to say otherwise is dumb.

Yes, it can have the effect of making you look like an insecure 1L compensating for an otherwise mediocre resume by overemphasizing just how well you did on the LSAT, despite it having fuck-all to do with your qualifications at this point.

Are you saying I should not list it? Bc I've been told that I absolutely shoul d by nearly everyone I've spoken to. I also mentioned that the scholarship is not a catch all. I need the grades to match in law school. Calling me insecure says a lot about u here

List the scholarship on your resume, even go so far as to note that it is a merit-based, full tuition scholarship.

Do not, however, expect that any pre-matriculation academic qualification will hold a candle to things like law school grades, LR, impressive work experience.

Also, be aware that even the format/aesthetic appeal of your resume might well mean more than your full ride.

[BigZuck]

Not to burst your bubble BornAgain, but to reiterate, exactly nobody will care (or even be aware of) how you paid for law school. Having a named scholarship is a feather in your cap, sure, but it's incredibly marginal when compared to the things firms actually care about (GPA, W/E, LR, etc.)

.

Are you dense? I plan to list the scholarship and also say that it was a merit based full ride. That one line alone says all it needs to say even if firms never bring up finances, which I doubt they will. To say that the effect would be marginal is foolish. It can have a significant effect for many different reasons and these reasons are far from clear but to say otherwise is dumb.

Yes, it can have the effect of making you look like an insecure 1L compensating for an otherwise mediocre resume by overemphasizing just how well you did on the LSAT, despite it having fuck-all to do with your qualifications at this point.

Are you saying I should not list it? Bc I've been told that I absolutely shoul d by nearly everyone I've spoken to. I also mentioned that the scholarship is not a catch all. I need the grades to match in law school. Calling me insecure says a lot about u here

For the record I said in a PM that I wouldn't make a big deal out of it. Something simple like "Joe Schmo Scholarship" is fine to me, but I wouldn't extrapolate or add that it's a fully.

Doubt any firm will read your resume and be like "Oh, this bro passed on NYU at sticker and went to UT, lets totes hire him! So responsible!"

[ymmv]

If anything firms have an incentive to hire associates with the most overwhelming debt possible. How else would they get anyone to stay past the first year?

[Onomatopoeia]

I dunno what u guys are all worked up about. It will be seen as a positive achievement. How much of a positive depends on my performance in law school