Wisconsin vs. UIUC Forum

[bizzike]

I don't believe you that you literally can't retake. Tell me why this is the case.

If I do another logical reasoning question I will explode.

if LR has worn you down, how do you expect to survive 1L? Especially considering your employment prospects from these institutions, you're going to need to finish at the top of your class. Is your work ethic going to magic into gear with the same issue given different inputs?

[Baby_Got_Feuerbach]

Michigan and Wisconsin are incredibly similar. Michigan has better professional programs, Wisconsin has better science programs and more research spending. TLS usually tips its hand toward Michigan because of USNWR rankings, law school "prestige", alumni that actively post, and our bias toward professional programs. If there's any gap between the two it's so marginal I do not consider it significant. I think Wisconsin's QOL advantage can't be overlooked.

Bro UMich is indisputably a better school than UW, both for UG and for LS. That said, I don't really care to debate the point as their relative strength in science programs or whatever is completely fucking irrelevant for the purposes of this forum.

OP mentioned Wisconsin's national reputation which doesn't stem from its law school, bro. He was clearly - for whatever reason - taking into consideration more than one school at the university.

Thinking Michigan an "indisputably" better university is bullshit.

[metroidbum]

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[bugsy33]

I don't believe you that you literally can't retake. Tell me why this is the case.

If I do another logical reasoning question I will explode.

if LR has worn you down, how do you expect to survive 1L? Especially considering your employment prospects from these institutions, you're going to need to finish at the top of your class. Is your work ethic going to magic into gear with the same issue given different inputs?

I was kidding bro. I did just fine on LR. Read the rest of the thread if you wanna know why I can't out and out retake.

Employment stats from UIUC are in the top 25...please stop making it out to be some TTT, it's not.

[SnowWhite]

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[BigZuck]

How is UIUC a TTT? BigLaw+Clerkships for 2013 class = ~30%

Who said it was a TTT? I missed that post.

[bugsy33]

UW just raised my scholly. I'm now very close to the instate price. I was actually typing my withdrawal letter when I got the email. Crazy

[McAvoy]

Going would still be a , huge.

[timbs4339]

That's still 160K, about twice what I'd pay to go there given the likely salaries.

I think you've got your answer. The best option is to follow your SO to Illinois and retake. It doesn't seem like there's any good reason not to.

[bugsy33]

Scrapping the Wisconsin idea. DD'ed at UIUC; it's just a better school anyway you slice it. Thanks for all the advice.

[sparty99]

Scrapping the Wisconsin idea. DD'ed at UIUC; it's just a better school anyway you slice it. Thanks for all the advice.

You are a fool. Illinois equally sucks. Enjoy paying six figures in debt. Hope you finish Top 20%.

[bugsy33]

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[bugsy33]

Scrapping the Wisconsin idea. DD'ed at UIUC; it's just a better school anyway you slice it. Thanks for all the advice.

You are a fool. Illinois equally sucks. Enjoy paying six figures in debt. Hope you finish Top 20%.

Thanks man! I hope I finish in the top 20% too!

Sparty on bro.

[McAvoy]

Huh? That would still be a , huge.

[bugsy33]

Huh? That would still be a , huge.

The cost benefit analysis for Illinois basically states that I'd be able to cover my debt within seven years if I get a median private sector job, and 2-3 years if I land BigLaw. If I go public their LRAP is strong, and would help me pay off the debt in under 10 years when combined with any form of PLSF (even if they cap it at 53k). Even without PLSF and LRAP, 120k would still be manageable at any job that pays close to 50k/yr. Their placement is strong, the school is trending back towards the T-25, and the legal climate will be at least a bit more favorable in 2017 (simply due to less overproduction).

Is it a gamble? Yes, of course it is, but to me the odds are good and the probable debt level can be repaid even with a non-legal job should it come to that. In a worst case scenario I can go back to doing what I did pre-law school (private investigation) and make enough to cover a 20 year repayment. In a best case scenario I land BigLaw and pay back my loans in two years.

I really appreciate all of the advice given here, but there is a point where it just becomes people parroting each other. Going to a school with T-25 legal employment and T-25 biglaw employment, on a significant scholarship, is an acceptable risk to me, end of story.

[BigZuck]

Trying to pay back 125K on 50K sounds kind of insane to me, especially if you want to like, buy a house and stuff. I'm no math whiz though so maybe you know something I don't.

GL bro.

[McAvoy]

Trying to pay back 125K on 50K sounds kind of insane to me, especially if you want to like, buy a house and stuff. I'm no math whiz though so maybe you know something I don't.

GL bro.

Parroted.

[rickgrimes69]

Trying to pay back 125K on 50K sounds kind of insane to me, especially if you want to like, buy a house and stuff. I'm no math whiz though so maybe you know something I don't.

GL bro.

Parroted.

[bugsy33]

Trying to pay back 125K on 50K sounds kind of insane to me, especially if you want to like, buy a house and stuff. I'm no math whiz though so maybe you know something I don't.

GL bro.

Parroted.

So, again, that would be the worst outcome. A middle of the road outcome would be making 75k in private practice, or 50k in PI with LRAP and PLSF. Those aren't random numbers either, that's straight from NALP. I also plan on, oh I don't know, making more money as I get more experience. Starting out at 50k for a few years doesn't mean I'll make that amount the rest of my life. The average attorney salary in this country is still over 100k. That's including all of the folks that went to so called "TTT" schools. Still failing to see how this is "insane." Especially when viewed in the context of the smallest graduating class in the last three decades.

In 2011 there were people with 174's getting the same amount of scholarship dollars to UIUC. I've looked at threads from 2012-13 telling people with 25% scholly's to go to UIUC and congratulating them on their scholarship awards. My guess is that by the time I come back next year this board will be straight up telling people not to go anywhere besides the T-13, and only with full rides. I've already seen that in a few threads.

Which is fine, I understand that logic. Obviously lowering your risk as much as possible is a great thing, but the T-14 is inaccessible to 95%+ of applicants. Again, I understand that many people here think that 95% of applicants shouldn't go to law school, but what happens is that you start alienating the vast majority of prospective students. It's getting to a point where people aren't going to take this site seriously.

I'm not trying to defend poorly performing law schools, I'm only trying to highlight that there has been a consistent progression on this site from giving solid advice on places to avoid, and consideration of debt, to shaming people who are going to anything outside the T-14 without a full ride scholarship.

I know I should stop arguing, but I have lemming fever and my insides hurt.

[NYSprague]

There is no way the worst possible outcome is $50,000. The worst outcome is unemployed as a lawyer. There are top students who don't have jobs in law.

[bugsy33]

There is no way the worst possible outcome is $50,000. The worst outcome is unemployed as a lawyer. There are top students who don't have jobs in law.

I am not K-JD. I can go back to working as a PI at any time, as most of my licenses are valid for the next 5-10 years. That job is absolutely brutal, but I could do it if I absolutely had to, and I can make $50k.

[BigZuck]

Trying to pay back 125K on 50K sounds kind of insane to me, especially if you want to like, buy a house and stuff. I'm no math whiz though so maybe you know something I don't.

GL bro.

Parroted.

So, again, that would be the worst outcome. A middle of the road outcome would be making 75k in private practice, or 50k in PI with LRAP and PLSF. Those aren't random numbers either, that's straight from NALP. I also plan on, oh I don't know, making more money as I get more experience. Starting out at 50k for a few years doesn't mean I'll make that amount the rest of my life. The average attorney salary in this country is still over 100k. That's including all of the folks that went to so called "TTT" schools. Still failing to see how this is "insane." Especially when viewed in the context of the smallest graduating class in the last three decades.

In 2011 there were people with 174's getting the same amount of scholarship dollars to UIUC. I've looked at threads from 2012-13 telling people with 25% scholly's to go to UIUC and congratulating them on their scholarship awards. My guess is that by the time I come back next year this board will be straight up telling people not to go anywhere besides the T-13, and only with full rides. I've already seen that in a few threads.

Which is fine, I understand that logic. Obviously lowering your risk as much as possible is a great thing, but the T-14 is inaccessible to 95%+ of applicants. Again, I understand that many people here think that 95% of applicants shouldn't go to law school, but what happens is that you start alienating the vast majority of prospective students. It's getting to a point where people aren't going to take this site seriously.

I'm not trying to defend poorly performing law schools, I'm only trying to highlight that there has been a consistent progression on this site from giving solid advice on places to avoid, and consideration of debt, to shaming people who are going to anything outside the T-14 without a full ride scholarship.

I know I should stop arguing, but I have lemming fever and my insides hurt.

The legal market is bad bro, pretty much as bad as it has been in recent history and we know a lot more about it.

I get the whole wanting to speak truth to the TLS power thing, I really do, but you have got to realize that a lot of smart people (dare I say some who might even be smarter than you) and who know something about the legal job market are saying that some of your plans (i.e. pay off 125K on a small law salary, Wisconsin at sticker, etc.) is not a good plan. That should tell you something. Chalk it up to lemmings if you want but anyone who has ever paid off more debt than their salary can tell you that 125K is going to suck unless you're making close to 6 figures (and that's just paying off student loan debt, it's not including things like buying a house).

Also, you're significantly overstating the advice that TLS gives out, as bros of your ilk tend to do. If someone presents legit options that aren't crazy, TLS will give its blessing. It's not T14 4 free or bust.

Anyway, Godspeed, I sincerely hope you snag whatever job it is you hope to snag.

[McAvoy]

So, again, that would be the worst outcome. A middle of the road outcome would be making 75k in private practice, or 50k in PI with LRAP and PLSF. Those aren't random numbers either, that's straight from NALP. I also plan on, oh I don't know, making more money as I get more experience. Starting out at 50k for a few years doesn't mean I'll make that amount the rest of my life. The average attorney salary in this country is still over 100k. That's including all of the folks that went to so called "TTT" schools. Still failing to see how this is "insane." Especially when viewed in the context of the smallest graduating class in the last three decades.

In 2011 there were people with 174's getting the same amount of scholarship dollars to UIUC. I've looked at threads from 2012-13 telling people with 25% scholly's to go to UIUC and congratulating them on their scholarship awards. My guess is that by the time I come back next year this board will be straight up telling people not to go anywhere besides the T-13, and only with full rides. I've already seen that in a few threads.

Which is fine, I understand that logic. Obviously lowering your risk as much as possible is a great thing, but the T-14 is inaccessible to 95%+ of applicants. Again, I understand that many people here think that 95% of applicants shouldn't go to law school, but what happens is that you start alienating the vast majority of prospective students. It's getting to a point where people aren't going to take this site seriously.

I'm not trying to defend poorly performing law schools, I'm only trying to highlight that there has been a consistent progression on this site from giving solid advice on places to avoid, and consideration of debt, to shaming people who are going to anything outside the T-14 without a full ride scholarship.

I know I should stop arguing, but I have lemming fever and my insides hurt.

I don't think so; I'm going to a non-T14 with less than a full ride. If I didn't have a lot of savings from work and an SO to subsidize my cost of living, I'd be making a pretty questionable decision. Even with the benefits of my situation, it's a questionable decision that keeps me up at night.

The reason you're finding a lot of resistance is not that you're putting yourself into a miserable situation (though, UW at 150K would have been), that UIUC isn't a great school, or that you haven't accomplished a lot to get here, it's that with one simple retake, another year's salary in the bank, and getting more serious with your girlfriend, you could easily go to this school without taking out one cent in loans. You also seem far too confident when over 40% of the past few graduating classes have been unable to find jobs as lawyers.

Also: none of that stuff on UIUC is really relevant because they got caught falsifying their numbers.. That seems to have changed a lot for them.

If you're going to take this debt load, you must go in prepared to drop out if you don't do well in 1L. 35K in loans and no job is a lot better than 120K in loans and no job. But I hope you do well, good luck.

[sparty99]

There is no way the worst possible outcome is $50,000. The worst outcome is unemployed as a lawyer. There are top students who don't have jobs in law.

I am not K-JD. I can go back to working as a PI at any time, as most of my licenses are valid for the next 5-10 years. That job is absolutely brutal, but I could do it if I absolutely had to, and I can make $50k.

You are making a huge mistake. You didn't even take into consideration that your debt will grow based on the interest. Additionally, you failed to consider the bar prep course costs, the time from may to at least august where you won't have a job. WOW. You are 5-10 points from a T14 and this is what you do? BYE FELICIA.

[ThatsGameB]

There is no way the worst possible outcome is $50,000. The worst outcome is unemployed as a lawyer. There are top students who don't have jobs in law.

I am not K-JD. I can go back to working as a PI at any time, as most of my licenses are valid for the next 5-10 years. That job is absolutely brutal, but I could do it if I absolutely had to, and I can make $50k.

You are making a huge mistake. You didn't even take into consideration that your debt will grow based on the interest. Additionally, you failed to consider the bar prep course costs, the time from may to at least august where you won't have a job. WOW. You are 5-10 points from a T14 and this is what you do? BYE FELICIA.

Curious at what price you would advocate going to UIUC at? Full ride or bust? 3/4 tuition? I only ask because you seem fairly harsh despite it placing around 30 percent into big law/clerkships. The middle of the class lands around 50-70k jobs and the bottom half are fairly screwed. I've also heard from several big law lawyers in Chi that it feeds very well into the market. Sure, the scandal is relevant to employers that put emphasis on the Newsweek rankings but the alumni respect in Chi isn't going to disappear because of it.