The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker Forum

[quijotesca1011]

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[cotiger]

again though, if they're paying sticker its for the most part because they can afford to do so without taking out loans for the whole thing.

HYS expect an initial student contribution of ~40k a year. They also assume your parents will help you pay. The people in the worse position are going to be kids with rich parents who aren't helping them at all.

If the kids parents won't help, they shouldn't go. Obviously the parents feel that HYS law is a bad use of resources. Time to look at a different plan. Maybe the parents will kick in; maybe they won't. Like I said, no one I know would have suggested that I go to law school if I had to take on massive debt. It just doesn't make sense to start out 6 figures of debt in the hole. Maybe some rich parents realize that law school is a bad investment.

You have to recognize that this is a very privileged financial position. Not everyone's parents CAN help. It's not a matter of thinking HYS is a 'bad use of resources', it's a matter of not having those resources. Do you think that law school should only be available to the super wealthy? Plenty of people (including our president…) have been financing their legal educations with loans, for a long time. In my opinion the system shouldn't work that way -- I think we can all agree tuition is ridiculous-- but it's the reality, and your alternative is suggesting that only the very wealthy can become lawyers? Debt is far from ideal, especially in this job market. But it's easy to say 'I wouldn't have gone if I didn't have the money' when it's never a decision you will actually have to make. We all only have one life and one career, and if you are passionate about something and have worked your brains out to get into an HYS level school, it's not as simple as you make it out to be.

It's pretty easy to say no to sticker debt, even at YHS.

In fact, it's probably easier to say no to sticker debt at YHS because you almost certainly have a T14 full-ride waiting for you.

[PrideandGlory1776]

Another "The Fundamental Problem..." thread really? Was this necessary?

[quijotesca1011]

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[cotiger]

It's pretty easy to say no to sticker debt, even at YHS.

In fact, it's probably easier to say no to sticker debt at YHS because you almost certainly have a T14 full-ride waiting for you.

I know some people who are struggling pretty hard with just that decision, but I suppose it also depends on your career goals. For standard big law it might be pretty easy, I don't know anything about it really.

I mean, I know there are a ton of people who struggle with it. But the vast majority of people on this site who struggle with the decision don't have anywhere near a clear enough reason for why YHS is actually worth the extra $200k debt at graduation (plus more while paying it back) to make it a legitimate dilemma. "I want to clerk" and "I want DC biglaw" don't cut it. For most people, even if they won't admit it to themselves, it really just comes down to the prestige. And at that point, YHS is just another luxury good.

[Gary]

It's pretty easy to say no to sticker debt, even at YHS.

In fact, it's probably easier to say no to sticker debt at YHS because you almost certainly have a T14 full-ride waiting for you.

I know some people who are struggling pretty hard with just that decision, but I suppose it also depends on your career goals. For standard big law it might be pretty easy, I don't know anything about it really.

I mean, I know there are a ton of people who struggle with it. But the vast majority of people on this site who struggle with the decision don't have anywhere near a clear enough reason for why YHS is actually worth the extra $200k debt at graduation (plus more while paying it back) to make it a legitimate dilemma. "I want to clerk" and "I want DC biglaw" don't cut it. For most people, even if they won't admit it to themselves, it really just comes down to the prestige. And at that point, YHS is just another luxury good.

+1. Exactly.

[jk148706]

It's pretty easy to say no to sticker debt, even at YHS.

In fact, it's probably easier to say no to sticker debt at YHS because you almost certainly have a T14 full-ride waiting for you.

I know some people who are struggling pretty hard with just that decision, but I suppose it also depends on your career goals. For standard big law it might be pretty easy, I don't know anything about it really.

I mean, I know there are a ton of people who struggle with it. But the vast majority of people on this site who struggle with the decision don't have anywhere near a clear enough reason for why YHS is actually worth the extra $200k debt at graduation (plus more while paying it back) to make it a legitimate dilemma. "I want to clerk" and "I want DC biglaw" don't cut it. For most people, even if they won't admit it to themselves, it really just comes down to the prestige. And at that point, YHS is just another luxury good.

Cotiger, as usual, on point

[aboutmydaylight]

Only for education. My dad didn't want us pissing it away on other stuff.
You are the first person I've known who found my Dad dying young as a fortunate situation.

Everyone's parents die, not everyone's parents leave them an education fund.

[NYSprague]

[quote="quijotesca1011"][quote="NYSprague"][quote="aboutmydaylight"][quote="Pneumonia"]again though, if they're paying sticker its for the most part because they can afford to do so without taking out loans for the whole thing.[/quote]

HYS expect an initial student contribution of ~40k a year. They also assume your parents will help you pay. The people in the worse position are going to be kids with rich parents who aren't helping them at all.[/quote]
If the kids parents won't help, they shouldn't go. Obviously the parents feel that HYS law is a bad use of resources. Time to look at a different plan. Maybe the parents will kick in; maybe they won't. Like I said, no one I know would have suggested that I go to law school if I had to take on massive debt. It just doesn't make sense to start out 6 figures of debt in the hole. Maybe some rich parents realize that law school is a bad investment.[/quote]

You have to recognize that this is a very privileged financial position. Not everyone's parents CAN help. It's not a matter of thinking HYS is a 'bad use of resources', it's a matter of not having those resources. Do you think that law school should only be available to the super wealthy? Plenty of people (including our president…) have been financing their legal educations with loans, for a long time. In my opinion the system shouldn't work that way -- I think we can all agree tuition is ridiculous-- but it's the reality, and your alternative is suggesting that only the very wealthy can become lawyers? Debt is far from ideal, especially in this job market. But it's easy to say 'I wouldn't have gone if I didn't have the money' when it's never a decision you will actually have to make. We all only have one life and one career, and if you are passionate about something and have worked your brains out to get into an HYS level school, it's not as simple as you make it out to be.[/quote]

I don't know what to tell you. Maybe if you are the next Barack Obama you truly are a special snowflake and taking on massive debt will work out for you. Law school cost substantially less when he attended but he still only paid off his loans with his book proceeds. He didn't work biglaw either. (I don't think PSLF existed then.) I'm not sure that is the best example to use.

So, yes, this is what I'm saying, don't burden your life with massive debt just to go to law school. You can be a lawyer without going to HYS. Only you know if you are such a superstar that the debt will be worth it in the end.

[kaiser]

It's pretty easy to say no to sticker debt, even at YHS.

In fact, it's probably easier to say no to sticker debt at YHS because you almost certainly have a T14 full-ride waiting for you.

I know some people who are struggling pretty hard with just that decision, but I suppose it also depends on your career goals. For standard big law it might be pretty easy, I don't know anything about it really.

I mean, I know there are a ton of people who struggle with it. But the vast majority of people on this site who struggle with the decision don't have anywhere near a clear enough reason for why YHS is actually worth the extra $200k debt at graduation (plus more while paying it back) to make it a legitimate dilemma. "I want to clerk" and "I want DC biglaw" don't cut it. For most people, even if they won't admit it to themselves, it really just comes down to the prestige. And at that point, YHS is just another luxury good.

Absolutely right. They get stars in their eyes, and then let it cloud what should be an objective cost/benefit analysis. Causes so many students to completely misvalue and midjudge the marginal differences between schools. If they want to be honest and say "I want that prestige and I'll pay whatever it costs" then fine, at least they are being truthful. But its just silly when they try and justify their cost/benefit, and try and put it in objective terms, when the calculation is so clearly skewed by the "prestige" tug.

[NYSprague]

Only for education. My dad didn't want us pissing it away on other stuff.
You are the first person I've known who found my Dad dying young as a fortunate situation.

Everyone's parents die, not everyone's parents leave them an education fund.

My Dad died when I was four. My point was that I would have been much better off with a living father and no money. Do you really not see that?

Do whatever the fuck you want.

[quijotesca1011]

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[KatyMarie]

Only for education. My dad didn't want us pissing it away on other stuff.
You are the first person I've known who found my Dad dying young as a fortunate situation.

Everyone's parents die, not everyone's parents leave them an education fund.

My Dad died when I was four. My point was that I would have been much better off with a living father and no money. Do you really not see that?

Do whatever the fuck you want.

To be fair, I don't think aboutmydaylight was ever saying that your dad dying young was a fortunate situation...just that you were in a fortunate situation financially.

I'm sorry about your dad, I'm sure that was and is really difficult to cope with.

[rayiner]

I think it's disingenuous to say that people who go to HYS have "rich" parents and therefore the money isn't a big deal. My parents make enough money where they sent my brother to HYP UG and paid sticker out of pocket. But they're typical boomers, so it's not like they have millions in the bank to throw around. While some of my brother's classmates had "fuck you!" money, most were just upper middle class professionals at the peak of their earnings curve. They made too much to get financial aid, but didn't have the kind of assets that would justify throwing away $100k on a whim.

[cotiger]

Okay, yeah I was just trying to say that if they are all "struggling" with it, it's not THAT easy of a choice.

But I definitely see your point. I just wonder if you talk to HYS students who did take out debt, what percentage of them regret it and what percentage think that for their goals and priorities it was worth it. I just think that on TLS we may tend to see a disproportionate amount of people who regret it, because of a reporting bias that those who regret/are upset about a situation are more likely to come back and write about it/advise others against it than those who are satisfied with their investment and careers are to come back and post here. That may be inaccurate. I would just say I have yet to meet a HYS law grad in person who thought it was an unwise investment, but again it's anecdotal.

I was responding to the implication that YHS with big loans was somehow necessary for the majority of people who have the passion and drive to get into YHS to have fully successful career outcomes. It can be extremely helpful under certain circumstances with specific goals, but that's not the case for the majority of people. Thus, it's a luxury good. You're paying the money for the ability to tell other people (and yourself) that you went to YHS (or are working at the marginally "better" firm), not because it was necessary for you to be able to do what you wanted to do.

[hcrimson2014]

dear god please stop

[quijotesca1011]

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[quijotesca1011]

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[californiauser]

I think it's disingenuous to say that people who go to HYS have "rich" parents and therefore the money isn't a big deal. My parents make enough money where they sent my brother to HYP UG and paid sticker out of pocket. But they're typical boomers, so it's not like they have millions in the bank to throw around. While some of my brother's classmates had "fuck you!" money, most were just upper middle class professionals at the peak of their earnings curve. They made too much to get financial aid, but didn't have the kind of assets that would justify throwing away $100k on a whim.

sorry you aren't "typical" anything if you can afford to send your kid to HYP at full sticker

you might be on the lower financial spectrum of people at those particular schools, but compared to the average person...c'mon

[worldtraveler]

I think it's disingenuous to say that people who go to HYS have "rich" parents and therefore the money isn't a big deal. My parents make enough money where they sent my brother to HYP UG and paid sticker out of pocket. But they're typical boomers, so it's not like they have millions in the bank to throw around. While some of my brother's classmates had "fuck you!" money, most were just upper middle class professionals at the peak of their earnings curve. They made too much to get financial aid, but didn't have the kind of assets that would justify throwing away $100k on a whim.

Some of us have parents who never made much money, but their parents were crazy and willingly lived without electricity and running water and grew/raised their own food so now they're wealthy boomers.

Not that this applies to me or anything

[quijotesca1011]

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[cotiger]

I was responding to the implication that YHS with big loans was somehow necessary for the majority of people who have the passion and drive to get into YHS to have fully successful career outcomes. It can be extremely helpful under certain circumstances with specific goals, but that's not the case for the majority of people. Thus, it's a luxury good. You're paying the money for the ability to tell other people (and yourself) that you went to YHS (or are working at the marginally "better" firm), not because it was necessary for you to be able to do what you wanted to do.

okay! See what you are saying. I'm coming from a different angle of interest in what's called 'prestigious PI' here on TLS, and so to be fair the vast majority of people I have met and talked to about their HYS experience are also in that field, and it's probably a very different perspective.

Right, that's one of those areas where it's my understanding that YHS conveys a significant advantage. If someone is really dedicated to a particular PI cause and has relevant experience/qualifications that will help them get it, then the YHS boost can be worth it.

The thing about this site, though, is that fairly frequently you'll see someone who lists their goals as something like "want to clerk and then DC biglaw or prestigious PI" and use that to justify YHS. In that case, they're just listing things that sound good and are unlikely to even be in the 10-12% that actually do PI/Gov from YHS, much less doing a prestigious PI gig that requires real experience/dedication in addition to a YHS degree.

[rayiner]

I think it's disingenuous to say that people who go to HYS have "rich" parents and therefore the money isn't a big deal. My parents make enough money where they sent my brother to HYP UG and paid sticker out of pocket. But they're typical boomers, so it's not like they have millions in the bank to throw around. While some of my brother's classmates had "fuck you!" money, most were just upper middle class professionals at the peak of their earnings curve. They made too much to get financial aid, but didn't have the kind of assets that would justify throwing away $100k on a whim.

sorry you aren't "typical" anything if you can afford to send your kid to HYP at full sticker

you might be on the lower financial spectrum of people at those particular schools, but compared to the average person...c'mon

My point is that even out of families that make enough money that HYS don't offer financial aid, most aren't so rich that they can afford to be cavalier about $100k scholarships. They're often dual-income professional households where the parents paid off their own student loans, etc, and could use the $100k cushion going forward to retirement.

[cotiger]

I think it's disingenuous to say that people who go to HYS have "rich" parents and therefore the money isn't a big deal. My parents make enough money where they sent my brother to HYP UG and paid sticker out of pocket. But they're typical boomers, so it's not like they have millions in the bank to throw around. While some of my brother's classmates had "fuck you!" money, most were just upper middle class professionals at the peak of their earnings curve. They made too much to get financial aid, but didn't have the kind of assets that would justify throwing away $100k on a whim.

sorry you aren't "typical" anything if you can afford to send your kid to HYP at full sticker

you might be on the lower financial spectrum of people at those particular schools, but compared to the average person...c'mon

My point is that even out of families that make enough money that HYS don't offer financial aid, most aren't so rich that they can afford to be cavalier about $100k scholarships. They're often dual-income professional households where the parents paid off their own student loans, etc, and could use the $100k cushion going forward to retirement.

I don't understand when people say that if YHS doesn't offer you finaid, then your family can afford sticker. I wish.

[09042014]

Does YHS include applicant income in their calculations? Cause that massively assfucks "need aid" calcs. Northwestern included mine so my "need" was lowered due to money I was making a job I had to quit to attend. It's retarded. But NW also doesn't give need aid for real, so I'm not mad. But YHS does. Do they count it?