The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers Forum

[Theopliske8711]

I think, looking back on my life, I will see the best days as being those in my 20s, when I lived with roommates making a salary of around 30 to 35K while having the free time of a 9-5 life. Quite honestly, I think it's all downhill from there, even if my net worth may eventually be significantly higher.

[John Everyman]

Please show me the beautiful women who will love your bald, flabby, $0 net worth, date breaking, no vacation having, nothing cool to talk about / relate to, unoriginal self who followed the herd.

Hey now...

[burtsbees]

the fundamental problem with burtsbees is that he keeps on changing his position depending on who/what he is responding to

I don't think I'm being inconsistent. Parse out all the stuff about wives/girlfriends because that's not what is important nor my main argument. From the start, my position has been:

1. If you want to be successful, you will have to work hard & make sacrifices no matter what profession you choose. Stress and lifestyle sacrifices are not unique to the legal profession. Many posters lambasting the legal profession seem to forget this.
2. If you are satisfied with an average lifestyle, then go work your average corporate job in Cleveland.
3. Those that can't cut it in the legal field probably wouldn't have been successful in other professions as well. It's more of a personality thing and those who fail shouldn't blame the legal field, but rather blame themselves.

[ManoftheHour]

I think, looking back on my life, I will see the best days as being those in my 20s, when I lived with roommates making a salary of around 30 to 35K while having the free time of a 9-5 life. Quite honestly, I think it's all downhill from there, even if my net worth may eventually be significantly higher.

Took two years off. This is pretty much what I'm doing....




....except dat inheritance.

[cinephile]

Average corporate job is hiring in Cleveland? Link please!

[ggocat]

With the debt you have from law school, you won't be affording a house anytime soon, let alone a 4 bedroom one. With your 3k a month loan payment that salary is going to feel like 60k.

You won't have time to meet a wife, no matter how good looking she is. If you do find a wife willing to put up with never seeing you, chances are she's spending all your money.

This is reality.

[emitremmus]

Please show me the beautiful women who will love your bald, flabby, $0 net worth, date breaking, no vacation having, nothing cool to talk about / relate to, unoriginal self who followed the herd. Maybe when you are 50 and partner you will find a golddigger who spends all your money and cheats on you.
You seem to have a grasp on how shitty the work and hours will be, but thinking your life will be better because of these sacrifices is flawed. It will not. The shittiness of your work will pollute everything decent in your life for many years.

Sounds like the American dream.

Wow. How much schooling is required to take this gold-digging wife route? Sign me up.

[Mal Reynolds]

This guy sounds borne and bread for success and achievement. But he's on to something about how shitty NYU is.

[A. Nony Mouse]

the fundamental problem with burtsbees is that he keeps on changing his position depending on who/what he is responding to

I don't think I'm being inconsistent. Parse out all the stuff about wives/girlfriends because that's not what is important nor my main argument. From the start, my position has been:

1. If you want to be successful, you will have to work hard & make sacrifices no matter what profession you choose. Stress and lifestyle sacrifices are not unique to the legal profession. Many posters lambasting the legal profession seem to forget this.
2. If you are satisfied with an average lifestyle, then go work your average corporate job in Cleveland.
3. Those that can't cut it in the legal field probably wouldn't have been successful in other professions as well. It's more of a personality thing and those who fail shouldn't blame the legal field, but rather blame themselves.

#2 implies that law somehow offers inherently more satisfaction that the average corporate job, but I have no idea what the OP means by satisfaction or average corporate job here.

#3 assumes that people who leave big law can't cut it in the legal field, which seems to be made up of confirmation bias and wishful thinking.

[nouseforaname123]

the fundamental problem with burtsbees is that he keeps on changing his position depending on who/what he is responding to

I don't think I'm being inconsistent. Parse out all the stuff about wives/girlfriends because that's not what is important nor my main argument. From the start, my position has been:

1. If you want to be successful, you will have to work hard & make sacrifices no matter what profession you choose. Stress and lifestyle sacrifices are not unique to the legal profession. Many posters lambasting the legal profession seem to forget this.
2. If you are satisfied with an average lifestyle, then go work your average corporate job in Cleveland.
3. Those that can't cut it in the legal field probably wouldn't have been successful in other professions as well. It's more of a personality thing and those who fail shouldn't blame the legal field, but rather blame themselves.

1. Please name the other peer professions that you've discussed that come with (a) the unsecured, non-dischargeable debt load found in law and (b) the lack of job security found in high-paying legal jobs. If you still don't understand this issue, revisit it after you take secured transactions and creditor's rights.

2. Funny that many (most?) young lawyers would gladly trade for an average lifestyle in Cleveland.

3. As is the case for the vast, vast majority of young lawyers, legal education and the legal profession will humble you. I just hope you bump this thread when that happens.

[Johann]

Please show me the beautiful women who will love your bald, flabby, $0 net worth, date breaking, no vacation having, nothing cool to talk about / relate to, unoriginal self who followed the herd. Maybe when you are 50 and partner you will find a golddigger who spends all your money and cheats on you.
You seem to have a grasp on how shitty the work and hours will be, but thinking your life will be better because of these sacrifices is flawed. It will not. The shittiness of your work will pollute everything decent in your life for many years.

I can see why you're bitter. I'd be too if I were bald and flabby.

The point is, if you're a bald, flabby, shitty lawyer with a golddigger wife, you'd probably be a bald, flabby, shitty doctor with a golddigger wife too, had you chosen that route. Or a bald, flabby, shitty...you get the point.

I was mainly just taking issue with you using law as a way to get "an above average hot wife." Plenty of lawyers have great significant others, but it's because of who they are personality wise despite being a lawyer, not because they are a lawyer.

[burtsbees]

Please show me the beautiful women who will love your bald, flabby, $0 net worth, date breaking, no vacation having, nothing cool to talk about / relate to, unoriginal self who followed the herd. Maybe when you are 50 and partner you will find a golddigger who spends all your money and cheats on you.
You seem to have a grasp on how shitty the work and hours will be, but thinking your life will be better because of these sacrifices is flawed. It will not. The shittiness of your work will pollute everything decent in your life for many years.

I can see why you're bitter. I'd be too if I were bald and flabby.

The point is, if you're a bald, flabby, shitty lawyer with a golddigger wife, you'd probably be a bald, flabby, shitty doctor with a golddigger wife too, had you chosen that route. Or a bald, flabby, shitty...you get the point.

I was mainly just taking issue with you using law as a way to get "an above average hot wife." Plenty of lawyers have great significant others, but it's because of who they are personality wise despite being a lawyer, not because they are a lawyer.

Clearly not the point of the post.

[84651846190]

What the hell happened to this thread?

[prezidentv8]

What the hell happened to this thread?

I for one am looking forward to reading it later and finding out.

That first post was lol

[bjsesq]

Read the first post. Stopped. So alpha my testicles retreated into my stomach cavity.

[dwil770]

the fundamental problem with burtsbees is that he keeps on changing his position depending on who/what he is responding to

I don't think I'm being inconsistent. Parse out all the stuff about wives/girlfriends because that's not what is important nor my main argument. From the start, my position has been:

1. If you want to be successful, you will have to work hard & make sacrifices no matter what profession you choose. Stress and lifestyle sacrifices are not unique to the legal profession. Many posters lambasting the legal profession seem to forget this.
2. If you are satisfied with an average lifestyle, then go work your average corporate job in Cleveland.
3. Those that can't cut it in the legal field probably wouldn't have been successful in other professions as well. It's more of a personality thing and those who fail shouldn't blame the legal field, but rather blame themselves.

1. Please name the other peer professions that you've discussed that come with (a) the unsecured, non-dischargeable debt load found in law and (b) the lack of job security found in high-paying legal jobs. If you still don't understand this issue, revisit it after you take secured transactions and creditor's rights.

2. Funny that many (most?) young lawyers would gladly trade for an average lifestyle in Cleveland.

3. As is the case for the vast, vast majority of young lawyers, legal education and the legal profession will humble you. I just hope you bump this thread when that happens.

I don't necessarily dispute these things, but it just really seems like there are many k-jd folks who get slammed by the biglaw life and can not appreciate how much more life can suck with a shit job (maybe slightly less shitty - even then, don't buy it.) for 120k-130k less, which is where most non k-JD 0L come from.

[rayiner]

.

[rayiner]

Again, I think most of OP's argument is all just a straw man. Where are the threads of actual grads telling people not to go to law school, saying that the life of a lawyer sucks too much? If you actually asked the grads on here, I think the vast majority would say they are relatively happy in their jobs thus far.

I'm referring to this argument. Is this a straw man to you?

Post subject: The fundamental problem with 0L's.

"You can't tell 0L's not to go to law school or at least not to take on debt to do so. Take an article like this: http://www.rosestreet.net/?p=28. 0L's will ignore him because "he sounds bitter." They don't want to listen to people who went to law school and had it turn out badly.

At the same time, they won't listen to people who went to law school and had it turn out well. When associates at big law firms tell them not to go, they say "he's a hypocrite." They don't want to hear from somebody who went to law school and won the dice roll."

Just because the right advice for SOME 0Ls might be "don't go" doesn't mean it's the right advice for all or even most 0Ls.

It's the right advice for most 0L's simply because most people shouldn't go to law school. Lots of people apply who can't get in, lots of people get in but fail to graduate, and of the ones that graduate, only about half get real lawyer jobs. The majority of 0L's, thus, should not go to law school.

What you mean to say is that just because most people shouldn't go to law school doesn't mean that some shouldn't. I don't find that a contentious point at all.

[rayiner]

This is a bit extreme but what I will say is that while a lot of biglaw associates (correctly) mock 0Ls for being naive about what the profession/debt entail, there are plenty of biglaw associates (many of them K-JDs) who are ironically a bit naive about what options exist in 2014 for your typical liberal arts college grad (i.e., the type of person most likely to apply to law school). Hint: they often aren't great. LOL at 60k. More like 35k.

Yeah, at a minimum, they don't realize how they sound to someone trying to live off of minimum wage with a completely useless liberal arts degree. When practicing lawyers on here complain about how hard it is to pay off debt while they're making 160k a year, that struggle is not going to translate to someone who just borrowed 40 bucks from their neighbor to pay the electricity bill before they cut the power off.

I'm not even saying they aren't right. I'm sure seeing so much of your salary that you work hard for going getting immediately taken away to pay off debt is frustrating and disheartening, and I'm sure every 0L underestimates what that feels like to varying degrees.

I am saying that they should try a little harder to understand what challenges/life situations 0Ls are already facing and be more rational about the available options.

I find this argument absolutely ridiculous. If you can't get people to pay you more than minimum wage with your college degree, why on earth do you think they'll want to pay you much more than minimum wage after you get a degree that adds very little value and you enter an oversaturated profession? "I can't get any better job with my liberal arts degree" is an absolutely terrible reason to go to law school, because it shows a real lack of general life ability that will be an impediment once you start working.

[rayiner]

the fundamental problem with burtsbees is that he keeps on changing his position depending on who/what he is responding to

I don't think I'm being inconsistent. Parse out all the stuff about wives/girlfriends because that's not what is important nor my main argument. From the start, my position has been:

1. If you want to be successful, you will have to work hard & make sacrifices no matter what profession you choose. Stress and lifestyle sacrifices are not unique to the legal profession. Many posters lambasting the legal profession seem to forget this.
2. If you are satisfied with an average lifestyle, then go work your average corporate job in Cleveland.
3. Those that can't cut it in the legal field probably wouldn't have been successful in other professions as well. It's more of a personality thing and those who fail shouldn't blame the legal field, but rather blame themselves.

#2 implies that law somehow offers inherently more satisfaction that the average corporate job, but I have no idea what the OP means by satisfaction or average corporate job here.

#3 assumes that people who leave big law can't cut it in the legal field, which seems to be made up of confirmation bias and wishful thinking.

Paul Campos nailed #3 the other day:

(3) The highly unusual combination of stress and boredom involved in being a big law associate is impossible to convey to people who haven't done it, but what's particularly provoking is the level of self-satisfied cluelessness that produces people who say things like "high-paying jobs are going to be demanding," as if the problem with the sort of people who manage to get a spot at DPW and end up hating it is their inherent laziness.

[buffalo_]

This is a bit extreme but what I will say is that while a lot of biglaw associates (correctly) mock 0Ls for being naive about what the profession/debt entail, there are plenty of biglaw associates (many of them K-JDs) who are ironically a bit naive about what options exist in 2014 for your typical liberal arts college grad (i.e., the type of person most likely to apply to law school). Hint: they often aren't great. LOL at 60k. More like 35k.

Yeah, at a minimum, they don't realize how they sound to someone trying to live off of minimum wage with a completely useless liberal arts degree. When practicing lawyers on here complain about how hard it is to pay off debt while they're making 160k a year, that struggle is not going to translate to someone who just borrowed 40 bucks from their neighbor to pay the electricity bill before they cut the power off.

I'm not even saying they aren't right. I'm sure seeing so much of your salary that you work hard for going getting immediately taken away to pay off debt is frustrating and disheartening, and I'm sure every 0L underestimates what that feels like to varying degrees.

I am saying that they should try a little harder to understand what challenges/life situations 0Ls are already facing and be more rational about the available options.

I find this argument absolutely ridiculous. If you can't get people to pay you more than minimum wage with your college degree, why on earth do you think they'll want to pay you minimum wage after you get a degree that adds very little value and you enter an oversaturated profession? "I can't get any better job with my liberal arts degree" is an absolutely terrible reason to go to law school, because it shows a real lack of general life ability that will be an impediment once you start working.

I find this argument absolutely ridiculous.

The contention is not "going to law school > earning minimum wage with LA degree" it's "working in BigLaw but paying off debt>earning minimum wage with LA degree."

It's a totally different conclusion. By landing in BigLaw the degree by definition has added significant value to the individual despite and market saturation.

[sah]

To be fair, I know plenty of lawyers worked before LS. Nor do I mean that someone who is earning min wage should take out six figures of debt for a TTT - obviously that is dumb. I don't disagree with any of that.

However, I have heard lots of lawyers (not necessarily on TLS) lament that they should have just worked in some consulting/finance/tech job paying >60k, and my point is that that option is not open for a lot of prospective law students.

[jimbeam21]

the fundamental problem with burtsbees is that he keeps on changing his position depending on who/what he is responding to

I don't think I'm being inconsistent. Parse out all the stuff about wives/girlfriends because that's not what is important nor my main argument. From the start, my position has been:

1. If you want to be successful, you will have to work hard & make sacrifices no matter what profession you choose. Stress and lifestyle sacrifices are not unique to the legal profession. Many posters lambasting the legal profession seem to forget this.
2. If you are satisfied with an average lifestyle, then go work your average corporate job in Cleveland.
3. Those that can't cut it in the legal field probably wouldn't have been successful in other professions as well. It's more of a personality thing and those who fail shouldn't blame the legal field, but rather blame themselves.

#2 implies that law somehow offers inherently more satisfaction that the average corporate job, but I have no idea what the OP means by satisfaction or average corporate job here.

#3 assumes that people who leave big law can't cut it in the legal field, which seems to be made up of confirmation bias and wishful thinking.

Paul Campos nailed #3 the other day:

(3) The highly unusual combination of stress and boredom involved in being a big law associate is impossible to convey to people who haven't done it, but what's particularly provoking is the level of self-satisfied cluelessness that produces people who say things like "high-paying jobs are going to be demanding," as if the problem with the sort of people who manage to get a spot at DPW and end up hating it is their inherent laziness.

Question- why did you leave your engineering career to become a lawyer?

[cavtrpr]

This is why I'm just sitting on my LSAT score for awhile. I'm going to re evaluate in two years if I still like being a police officer. I got the position with an 8% annual bonus for having a bachelor's degree (that I got debt free thanks to the serial rapist called the Army), I get a yearly raise (that will eventually max out, though), lots of opportunity for promotion and different assignments within the department, job security since there are no shortage of dirtbags, and a retirement with solid vacation time. PLUS, I get to drive a car really fast and fight drug addicts that attacks me. Something I can say that police work isn't: mundane. While there might be dull moments here and there, everyday is different, and every call is taken at a high level of anticipation simply because of what can happen. I might go to law school eventually, but it's not looking like it anytime soon. This stuff is fun. My 60k salary might not allow me to drive an Aston Martin, but how many attorneys do anyway? A third of my check does not go to debt payment, and I always have money left to save. I'll call it a deal for now.

[nouseforaname123]

Question- why did you leave your engineering career to become a lawyer?

Why he did it and whether it was a good idea are two entirely different questions. Many of the people who have successful outcomes come out the other side thinking that law school was a bad idea.

It's one thing to watch a bunch of pros playing poker on TV with the probabilities neatly posted in those little black boxes. It's a whole different ball game once you're sitting in that chair and it's your money in the pot. You understand what I'm getting at?