H vs Y Forum

[drawstring]

Just go to Harvard; it seems like that's what you really want. It does appear that landing an elite firm may be easier out of Yale though.

[gottago]

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[drawstring]

I think you're making the right decision. You'll still have great job prospects and it seems that's where your heart is too.

[Clyde Frog]

For me it'd be between Yale and CCN with $$$.

Yale opens a lot of doors that the other schools, including Harvard, don't.

What if it opens this door? Do YOU really want to go through that door?

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[SnakySalmon]

The fact that you're making your decision solely on having more fun for three years, rather than choosing the option that will be better for the rest of your life if dumb. That said, HLS will give you perfectly great exit options, and no one cares anymore. Just go.

[Blessedassurance]

I would just like to add one tiny, almost insignificant thing to the H v Y debate. As a non-t3 graduate working overseas, I can say that I would rather have gone to Harvard than Yale for working overseas. Outside of American lawyers, almost no one knows that Y is "better" than H. Most foreign lawyers assume that H is the best law school in the U.S. (and the world) based on the university's overall prestige, how often they hear about it in the news, and contact with successful H graduates (note that these all have to do with H's larger size). Even foreign lawyers who have a lot of experience in BigLaw, and therefore know the H v Y debate, will likely have no preference between the schools because (1) people around them won't know the difference, so it may actually be more prestigious for them to have a H person working for them, and (2) many foreign countries don't operate on the school-prestige-system, and instead focus on bar scores (which we don't have), work experience, or personality. By these metrics, Y and H are equal (well, I guess you could argue that Y people have better softs or whatever, but I won't do so).

this doesn't get stated enough. harvard also has a relative huge contingent of international LLM's (a lot of them were distinguished lawyers in their home countries).

[lewisandclark]

I would just like to add one tiny, almost insignificant thing to the H v Y debate. As a non-t3 graduate working overseas, I can say that I would rather have gone to Harvard than Yale for working overseas. Outside of American lawyers, almost no one knows that Y is "better" than H. Most foreign lawyers assume that H is the best law school in the U.S. (and the world) based on the university's overall prestige, how often they hear about it in the news, and contact with successful H graduates (note that these all have to do with H's larger size). Even foreign lawyers who have a lot of experience in BigLaw, and therefore know the H v Y debate, will likely have no preference between the schools because (1) people around them won't know the difference, so it may actually be more prestigious for them to have a H person working for them, and (2) many foreign countries don't operate on the school-prestige-system, and instead focus on bar scores (which we don't have), work experience, or personality. By these metrics, Y and H are equal (well, I guess you could argue that Y people have better softs or whatever, but I won't do so).

this doesn't get stated enough. harvard also has a relative huge contingent of international LLM's (a lot of them were distinguished lawyers in their home countries).

Let me reiterate that this is 100% correct. Internationally, H's reputation is unparalleled; most international lawyers I work with don't even know that Yale has a law school (or they think that Yale's law school is on par with Princeton's.. no joke).

[ExpectLess]

I wanted to make sure I'm not making a colossal mistake by walking away from YLS.

I mean, there's a reason only 40 people turn down YLS each year, while 300 people turn down HLS. It's not just prestige or school size -- you do have an easier time getting top firms and clerkships from YLS. But like everyone else said, HLS is still a great school. If you think you'd be happier there and are willing to take the risk that you may end up at a slightly lower-ranked firm, your life is going to be fine.

[ph14]

I wanted to make sure I'm not making a colossal mistake by walking away from YLS.

I mean, there's a reason only 40 people turn down YLS each year, while 300 people turn down HLS. It's not just prestige or school size -- you do have an easier time getting top firms and clerkships from YLS. But like everyone else said, HLS is still a great school. If you think you'd be happier there and are willing to take the risk that you may end up at a slightly lower-ranked firm, your life is going to be fine.

That's true but not sure 0L decisionmaking is the best rationale to support it. Also, it doesn't really address the harder issue: how big of a difference are we talking?

[ExpectLess]

I wanted to make sure I'm not making a colossal mistake by walking away from YLS.

I mean, there's a reason only 40 people turn down YLS each year, while 300 people turn down HLS. It's not just prestige or school size -- you do have an easier time getting top firms and clerkships from YLS. But like everyone else said, HLS is still a great school. If you think you'd be happier there and are willing to take the risk that you may end up at a slightly lower-ranked firm, your life is going to be fine.

That's true but not sure 0L decisionmaking is the best rationale to support it. Also, it doesn't really address the harder issue: how big of a difference are we talking?

I think for some things the difference is significant. Virtually everyone at YLS can get a federal clerkship if they want one, and in recent years there have been more SCOTUS clerks in raw numbers from YLS than HLS -- which is particularly notable when you consider there are almost three times as many students at HLS. That's not really relevant to OP's concerns, but my sense is that this pattern extends to law firm hiring too: there are roughly the same number of spots at the most desirable places for YLS and HLS students, you're just competing with a larger pool of students at the latter.

[ph14]

I wanted to make sure I'm not making a colossal mistake by walking away from YLS.

I mean, there's a reason only 40 people turn down YLS each year, while 300 people turn down HLS. It's not just prestige or school size -- you do have an easier time getting top firms and clerkships from YLS. But like everyone else said, HLS is still a great school. If you think you'd be happier there and are willing to take the risk that you may end up at a slightly lower-ranked firm, your life is going to be fine.

That's true but not sure 0L decisionmaking is the best rationale to support it. Also, it doesn't really address the harder issue: how big of a difference are we talking?

I think for some things the difference is significant. Virtually everyone at YLS can get a federal clerkship if they want one, and in recent years there have been more SCOTUS clerks in raw numbers from YLS than HLS -- which is particularly notable when you consider there are almost three times as many students at HLS. That's not really relevant to OP's concerns, but my sense is that this pattern extends to law firm hiring too: there are roughly the same number of spots at the most desirable places for YLS and HLS students, you're just competing with a larger pool of students at the latter.

These points are overstated.

[ExpectLess]

I think for some things the difference is significant. Virtually everyone at YLS can get a federal clerkship if they want one, and in recent years there have been more SCOTUS clerks in raw numbers from YLS than HLS -- which is particularly notable when you consider there are almost three times as many students at HLS. That's not really relevant to OP's concerns, but my sense is that this pattern extends to law firm hiring too: there are roughly the same number of spots[/u] at the most desirable places for YLS and HLS students, you're just competing with a larger pool of students at the latter.

These points are overstated.

If you're willing to clerk in flyover country (i.e., you're not picky about clerking in a competitive circuit), it is not an overstatement to say that anyone at YLS can get a federal clerkship. Maybe they exist, but I haven't met people here whose experience was to the contrary.

[jbagelboy]

I think for some things the difference is significant. Virtually everyone at YLS can get a federal clerkship if they want one, and in recent years there have been more SCOTUS clerks in raw numbers from YLS than HLS -- which is particularly notable when you consider there are almost three times as many students at HLS. That's not really relevant to OP's concerns, but my sense is that this pattern extends to law firm hiring too: there are roughly the same number of spots[/u] at the most desirable places for YLS and HLS students, you're just competing with a larger pool of students at the latter.

These points are overstated.

If you're willing to clerk in flyover country (i.e., you're not picky about clerking in a competitive circuit), it is not an overstatement to say that anyone at YLS can get a federal clerkship. Maybe they exist, but I haven't met people here whose experience was to the contrary.

First, I'd question what clerkship in missouri eastern district would yield for your career at a coastal firm.

More importantly, the fact that you haven't met people who couldn't get a clerkship is not very indicative since everyone you've talked to who's clerking was eo ipso able to get a clerkship. That other people who don't have clerkships and didn't get one haven't approached you to talk about their nonexistent clerkship does not mean there aren't lots of those people at your school.

I could say everyone at my school gets a job at a top vault law firm, because everyone I know either has one or chose to do something else after getting an offer (clerking, fed agencies) instead. But that obviously wouldn't be true even if it withstands anecdotal scrutiny.

This follows reasonably because while I would believe that no grades at yale could hold you back (Except failing a class) from a district clerkship, there are other qualities judges look for in applicants that some yale students might lack.

Yale is obviously the best school to go to if you want exposure to federal chambers, but as ph14 said, this truth should not overstate another to the point of fallacy.

[lawschool22]

gottago -

IIRC aren't you targeting the tippy-top uber-prestigious firms? Also iirc this was extremely important to you. If that's the case, I think you should go to Yale, realizing that you will have a social life at either place. A social life isn't just going to "happen" whether you're in Cambridge or New Haven, and I think that is probably not the wisest reason to distinguish between the two schools.

I haven't been keeping up with the thread, but one thing I am curious about is cost. Did either school offer you any amount of need-based aid? If one is significantly more than the other, I would probably lean towards that school.

But I guess if that isn't the case, and you decide you're okay forgoing the slight decrease in your chances ar elite biglaw options, no one will fault you for going to Harvard if that is where you felt you fit in better.

[Cicero76]

gottago -

IIRC aren't you targeting the tippy-top uber-prestigious firms? Also iirc this was extremely important to you. If that's the case, I think you should go to Yale Harvard, realizing that you will have a social life at either placeHavard. A social life isn't just going to "happen" whether you're in Cambridge or New HavenHarvard, and I think that is probably notthe wisest reason to distinguish between the two schools.

I haven't been keeping up with the thread, but one thing I am curious about is cost. Did either school offer you any amount of need-based aid? If one is significantly more than the other, I would probably lean towards that school.

But I guess if that isn't the case, and you decide you're okay forgoing the slight decrease in your chances ar elite biglaw options, no one will fault you for going to Harvard if that is where you felt you fit in better.

[gottago]

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[lawschool22]

Their finaid awards came within $100 of each other, but Harvard's COA is higher.

Yea getting the uber prestigious positions are important to me but people like ph14 have told me that I can't exactly just coast to WLRK from YLS. So if the tippy-top firms require hard work and grades from both places then that negates YLS's "just chill" advantage.

Also, a lot of people have told me that social scene isn't a good reason to choose between schools but my undergrad experience and talking with people who've transferred out of my undergrad (a few of them) have suggested that a school's social life doesn't seem important when choosing but it affects your day-to-day operation and well-being.

Like I said, it's not like Harvard/Boston's 2AM curfew and everything mean that Cambridge=Prague, but it's probably better and more varied than Yale. On the one hand I'm not expecting Yale's social scene to be good or as good as Harvard's. It just has to be good enough.

But another way I've thought about it is that HLS could be "close enough" to YLS in academics/career ops that choosing it on the basis of other factors wouldn't be an error I'll come to regret.

ETA: Can't tell whether Cicero's crossing out means he's voting for Harvard here or whether he's satirizing how dumb it'd be to turn down YLS

I think I'd rather choose "cheaper + better employment prospects for my goals + close enough social scene" over "more expensive +better social scene + close enough employment prospects for my goals"

I would have a very hard time justifying turning down cheaper Yale over more expensive Harvard. But as I've said, you're not going to go "wrong" by choosing Harvard. Just remember that getting those top jobs out of Harvard will be comparatively harder I think.

For one metric, look at YLS class size vs. HLS. At Yale you're competing w/ ~60 people for bigfirm (30% big firm score x 209 grads). At Harvard you're competing w/ ~315 (54.5% bigfirm x 578 grads).

It's hard to make the case that your path wouldn't be easier at Yale. And there will be a social scene, I promise.

[ph14]

As others have stated, it's your life and you should pick the school that you think is the best fit for you. Just don't overstate the advantages YLS gives you as compared to HLS, especially when they are proclaimed by 0Ls.

[bp1]

Their finaid awards came within $100 of each other, but Harvard's COA is higher.

Yea getting the uber prestigious positions are important to me but people like ph14 have told me that I can't exactly just coast to WLRK from YLS. So if the tippy-top firms require hard work and grades from both places then that negates YLS's "just chill" advantage.

Also, a lot of people have told me that social scene isn't a good reason to choose between schools but my undergrad experience and talking with people who've transferred out of my undergrad (a few of them) have suggested that a school's social life doesn't seem important when choosing but it affects your day-to-day operation and well-being.

Like I said, it's not like Harvard/Boston's 2AM curfew and everything mean that Cambridge=Prague, but it's probably better and more varied than Yale. On the one hand I'm not expecting Yale's social scene to be good or as good as Harvard's. It just has to be good enough.

But another way I've thought about it is that HLS could be "close enough" to YLS in academics/career ops that choosing it on the basis of other factors wouldn't be an error I'll come to regret.

ETA: Can't tell whether Cicero's crossing out means he's voting for Harvard here or whether he's satirizing how dumb it'd be to turn down YLS

Look, you've spent the last month or more posting on various threads on TLS asking for advice, and each time it seems like you've ended up in the same place you are now "I really prefer Harvard, but I'm struggling to give up the Yale prestige." You know all the arguments for and against (at least the TLS versions, and hopefully whatever you've learned from talking this over with other resources), and you still seemingly want to go to Harvard. I feel like you're looking for someone to tell you that's an okay choice to make, to ease your guilt. So I will.

At this point, just bite the bullet and choose HLS. You've already considered your COA figures & the schools' respective employment statistics, and nothing is going to change in that equation in the next 12 hours. You'll probably have some days that you'll regret your choice no matter what decision you made, just because that's how life works. But you'll also never know if attending Yale would have netted you a more prestigious firm offer or not, so you'll get over asking "what if" and be happy with your options coming out of HLS.

(And I'm saying this as someone who has wanted YLS since day one, signed a lease in New Haven asap, and never looked back. At some point, make the choice you need to make for yourself.)

[ETA missing words]

[ph14]

Their finaid awards came within $100 of each other, but Harvard's COA is higher.

Yea getting the uber prestigious positions are important to me but people like ph14 have told me that I can't exactly just coast to WLRK from YLS. So if the tippy-top firms require hard work and grades from both places then that negates YLS's "just chill" advantage.

Also, a lot of people have told me that social scene isn't a good reason to choose between schools but my undergrad experience and talking with people who've transferred out of my undergrad (a few of them) have suggested that a school's social life doesn't seem important when choosing but it affects your day-to-day operation and well-being.

Like I said, it's not like Harvard/Boston's 2AM curfew and everything mean that Cambridge=Prague, but it's probably better and more varied than Yale. On the one hand I'm not expecting Yale's social scene to be good or as good as Harvard's. It just has to be good enough.

But another way I've thought about it is that HLS could be "close enough" to YLS in academics/career ops that choosing it on the basis of other factors wouldn't be an error I'll come to regret.

ETA: Can't tell whether Cicero's crossing out means he's voting for Harvard here or whether he's satirizing how dumb it'd be to turn down YLS

Look, you've spent the last month or more posting on various threads on TLS asking for advice, and each time it seems like you've ended up in the same place you are now "I really prefer Harvard, but I'm struggling to give up the Yale prestige." You know all the arguments for and against (at least the TLS versions, and hopefully whatever you've learned from talking this over with other resources), and you still seemingly want to go to Harvard. I feel like you're looking for someone to tell you that's an okay choice to make, to ease your guilt. So I will.

At this point, just bite the bullet and choose HLS. You've already considered your COA figures & the schools' respective employment statistics, and nothing is going to change in that equation in the next 12 hours. You'll probably have some days that you'll regret your choice no matter what decision you made, just because that's how life works. But you'll also never know if attending Yale would have netted you a more prestigious firm offer or not, so you'll get over asking "what if" and be happy with your options coming out of HLS.

(And I'm saying this as someone who has wanted YLS since day one, signed a lease in New Haven asap, and never looked back. At some point, make the choice you need to make for yourself.)

[ETA missing words]

It's Harvard. It's not as if you're picking an unprestigious school over Yale, OP.

[bp1]

It's Harvard. It's not as if you're picking an unprestigious school over Yale, OP.

Definitely hope that was clear in my post as well. If not, let me state: Harvard is Harvard, and will provide you with great opportunities (and likely a lot of the same ones that Yale would provide, if not all of the same ones, when it comes down to it).

[ph14]

It's Harvard. It's not as if you're picking an unprestigious school over Yale, OP.

Definitely hope that was clear in my post as well. If not, let me state: Harvard is Harvard, and will provide you with great opportunities (and likely a lot of the same ones that Yale would provide, if not all of the same ones, when it comes down to it).

Not an attack on you at all, just elaborating on your point of turning down Yale's (deserved) prestige for HLS.

[jbagelboy]

Their finaid awards came within $100 of each other, but Harvard's COA is higher.

Yea getting the uber prestigious positions are important to me but people like ph14 have told me that I can't exactly just coast to WLRK from YLS. So if the tippy-top firms require hard work and grades from both places then that negates YLS's "just chill" advantage.

Also, a lot of people have told me that social scene isn't a good reason to choose between schools but my undergrad experience and talking with people who've transferred out of my undergrad (a few of them) have suggested that a school's social life doesn't seem important when choosing but it affects your day-to-day operation and well-being.

Like I said, it's not like Harvard/Boston's 2AM curfew and everything mean that Cambridge=Prague, but it's probably better and more varied than Yale. On the one hand I'm not expecting Yale's social scene to be good or as good as Harvard's. It just has to be good enough.

But another way I've thought about it is that HLS could be "close enough" to YLS in academics/career ops that choosing it on the basis of other factors wouldn't be an error I'll come to regret.

ETA: Can't tell whether Cicero's crossing out means he's voting for Harvard here or whether he's satirizing how dumb it'd be to turn down YLS

I think I'd rather choose "cheaper + better employment prospects for my goals + close enough social scene" over "more expensive +better social scene + close enough employment prospects for my goals"

I would have a very hard time justifying turning down cheaper Yale over more expensive Harvard. But as I've said, you're not going to go "wrong" by choosing Harvard. Just remember that getting those top jobs out of Harvard will be comparatively harder I think.

For one metric, look at YLS class size vs. HLS. At Yale you're competing w/ ~60 people for bigfirm (30% big firm score x 209 grads). At Harvard you're competing w/ ~315 (54.5% bigfirm x 578 grads).

It's hard to make the case that your path wouldn't be easier at Yale. And there will be a social scene, I promise.

You're right generally, I just want to point out one glaring omission, which is that many more than 60 people participate at Yale's on-campus recruiting, FIP (which is your "competition," not the number of grads who begin at firms after graduation). Yale publishes data on what it's students do summer of 2L: http://www.law.yale.edu/studentlife/cdo ... oyment.htm

As you see, roughly 3/4 (71-75% over the past five years) work at private law firms, and the "vast majority" of students participate in FIP. So you're really competing with 80%+ of the class. You can't take LST numbers to represent # of people summering at firms.

Same goes for Harvard I guess (way more than 315 students go to EIP), although the difference is less pronounced.

[jbagelboy]

Their finaid awards came within $100 of each other, but Harvard's COA is higher.

Yea getting the uber prestigious positions are important to me but people like ph14 have told me that I can't exactly just coast to WLRK from YLS. So if the tippy-top firms require hard work and grades from both places then that negates YLS's "just chill" advantage.

Also, a lot of people have told me that social scene isn't a good reason to choose between schools but my undergrad experience and talking with people who've transferred out of my undergrad (a few of them) have suggested that a school's social life doesn't seem important when choosing but it affects your day-to-day operation and well-being.

Like I said, it's not like Harvard/Boston's 2AM curfew and everything mean that Cambridge=Prague, but it's probably better and more varied than Yale. On the one hand I'm not expecting Yale's social scene to be good or as good as Harvard's. It just has to be good enough.

But another way I've thought about it is that HLS could be "close enough" to YLS in academics/career ops that choosing it on the basis of other factors wouldn't be an error I'll come to regret.

ETA: Can't tell whether Cicero's crossing out means he's voting for Harvard here or whether he's satirizing how dumb it'd be to turn down YLS

Look, you've spent the last month or more posting on various threads on TLS asking for advice, and each time it seems like you've ended up in the same place you are now "I really prefer Harvard, but I'm struggling to give up the Yale prestige." You know all the arguments for and against (at least the TLS versions, and hopefully whatever you've learned from talking this over with other resources), and you still seemingly want to go to Harvard. I feel like you're looking for someone to tell you that's an okay choice to make, to ease your guilt. So I will.

At this point, just bite the bullet and choose HLS. You've already considered your COA figures & the schools' respective employment statistics, and nothing is going to change in that equation in the next 12 hours. You'll probably have some days that you'll regret your choice no matter what decision you made, just because that's how life works. But you'll also never know if attending Yale would have netted you a more prestigious firm offer or not, so you'll get over asking "what if" and be happy with your options coming out of HLS.

(And I'm saying this as someone who has wanted YLS since day one, signed a lease in New Haven asap, and never looked back. At some point, make the choice you need to make for yourself.)

[ETA missing words]

It's Harvard. It's not as if you're picking an unprestigious school over Yale, OP.

Most lay & international prestige signals place Harvard over Yale anyway, although it's close. (See http://www.businessinsider.com/best-law ... -us-2013-9). Yale just has more cache among professors/academia.