Yale v. Ruby Forum

[kartelite]

nope...the accelerated Integrated 4 year JD/MBA is Yale Law & Yale Business, unless they have changed since last year.

No, it's 3 years.

To the poster who said he got into SOM yesterday - I did as well, have you heard from YLS yet?

[Instinctive]

nope...the accelerated Integrated 4 year JD/MBA is Yale Law & Yale Business, unless they have changed since last year.

No, it's 3 years.

To the poster who said he got into SOM yesterday - I did as well, have you heard from YLS yet?

Lol yes - it's me. The OP.



And I can't do JD/MBA at Booth, to whomever asked, because I didn't get in.


And person who corrected me on Doctoroff - yes. To me the most valuable part of graduate business education is a network. Doctoroff's mentor program is exactly that, as well as help with internship placement.

[BankruptMe]

nope...the accelerated Integrated 4 year JD/MBA is Yale Law & Yale Business, unless they have changed since last year.

No, it's 3 years.

To the poster who said he got into SOM yesterday - I did as well, have you heard from YLS yet?

Lol yes - it's me. The OP.



And I can't do JD/MBA at Booth, to whomever asked, because I didn't get in.


And person who corrected me on Doctoroff - yes. To me the most valuable part of graduate business education is a network. Doctoroff's mentor program is exactly that, as well as help with internship placement.

Even though a JD/MBA would be tempting, I think I would still take a Chi JD with limited debt and cross register and take classes at Booth

[Borg]

nope...the accelerated Integrated 4 year JD/MBA is Yale Law & Yale Business, unless they have changed since last year.

No, it's 3 years.

To the poster who said he got into SOM yesterday - I did as well, have you heard from YLS yet?

Lol yes - it's me. The OP.



And I can't do JD/MBA at Booth, to whomever asked, because I didn't get in.


And person who corrected me on Doctoroff - yes. To me the most valuable part of graduate business education is a network. Doctoroff's mentor program is exactly that, as well as help with internship placement.

Even though a JD/MBA would be tempting, I think I would still take a Chi JD with limited debt and cross register and take classes at Booth

I absolutely loved getting my JD/MBA and recommend it to everyone, but I'd still take UChicago Law for free over Yale JD/MBA. Yale SOM isn't that strong and that road is going to cost you an arm and a leg. I'd rather go to Chicago and just network the shit out of Chicago to get internships in finance during the academic year during 2L and 3L. After the 1L pressure is off and you've figured out what you're doing, the whole game becomes a lot easier and you can do things like this. Also, load up on b school classes. See if you can use the Rubinstein connections to make sure that the b school accommodates you and gives you a slot in their classes because of your "research interests" or whatever you need to show them. The way to organize b school classes starting your 2L year would be:

Semester 1: 2 classes - Accounting and corporate finance
Semester 2: 1 class - Capital markets or similar (whatever class it is that offers a broad overview of debt and equity pricing, market mechanics etc.)
Semester 3 and beyond: Advanced accounting courses dealing with fundamental security analysis, advanced finance courses.

And I can't stress this enough, intern like crazy during 2L and 3L in non-law jobs.

[Toby Ziegler]

Edit: Please don't quote.

0L here.

I've read through this thread and don't think I've seen it mentioned, so apologies if it has been noted already.

I am applying next cycle and will be a bit of a non-traditional (over 25 y/o, married with 2 kids). I obviously don't know OP's personal life or desires, but from the point of view, as a family man, the sort of debt we're talking about is terrifying. It would seem that putting yourself into so much debt would not only limit your career prospects, but would also limit your personal life, at least to a certain degree. I have a few friends who have pretty massive business school debt and would love to start a family but their debt makes them feel limited in this regard.

So in all my 0L wisdom, I would take the Rubinstein scholarship and sleep well at night. Again, I realize my comment raises a very specific concern that may not be applicable to OP, but it seems worthy of mentioning. If you're planning on getting married and starting a family within the next 5-7 years it is wise to think about the ramifications your choice will have on your future family plans.

Again 0L, so maybe someone with more experience w/r/t this subject could clear up anything I am not considering.
HTH

[Instinctive]

^Toby

This is exactly what I struggle with the most right now. I'm trying (irl) to get as much info as possible from people who have had school debt to try and understand if it is worth it or not.

Right now, to update everyone:

I want to want to go to Chicago.
I want to go to Yale.

I'm hoping the Chicago ASW goes either really well or really poorly so that my decision is made.

[Instinctive]

I absolutely loved getting my JD/MBA and recommend it to everyone, but I'd still take UChicago Law for free over Yale JD/MBA. Yale SOM isn't that strong and that road is going to cost you an arm and a leg. I'd rather go to Chicago and just network the shit out of Chicago to get internships in finance during the academic year during 2L and 3L. After the 1L pressure is off and you've figured out what you're doing, the whole game becomes a lot easier and you can do things like this. Also, load up on b school classes. See if you can use the Rubinstein connections to make sure that the b school accommodates you and gives you a slot in their classes because of your "research interests" or whatever you need to show them. The way to organize b school classes starting your 2L year would be:

Semester 1: 2 classes - Accounting and corporate finance
Semester 2: 1 class - Capital markets or similar (whatever class it is that offers a broad overview of debt and equity pricing, market mechanics etc.)
Semester 3 and beyond: Advanced accounting courses dealing with fundamental security analysis, advanced finance courses.

And I can't stress this enough, intern like crazy during 2L and 3L in non-law jobs.

@Borg - if I am business undergrad, do you think I'll be able to dive right into advanced accounting and finance type stuff? Given I've already taken courses such as Advanced corporate finance, investment and portfolio management (and theory) have a degree in accounting, etc…I'm not some humanities person who doesn't know what financial statements are

Anyone with cross-registration experience know anything about how much the b-schools recognize this?

[Cicero76]

^Toby

This is exactly what I struggle with the most right now. I'm trying (irl) to get as much info as possible from people who have had school debt to try and understand if it is worth it or not.

Right now, to update everyone:

I want to want to go to Chicago.
I want to go to Yale.

I'm hoping the Chicago ASW goes either really well or really poorly so that my decision is made.

Are you going to still be really sad at age 70, telling your grandkids "yeah, I could have gone to Yale, but..."? Or are you going to get over it? If it's the former, then maybe that lifetime of security is worth 150k to you, since you'll make that difference up within a decade at the most. Or maybe you want to start debt free and aren't going to be haunted by prestige demons. Only you can know. The rest of us here are just making objective assessments that can't take into account the fact that you're an actual human being with non-objective feelings and goals on top of objective ones.

[20141023]

.

[northwood]

Think of it this way: by not taking out that loan money, you are paying yourself (with interest) to go to law school. When you begin working, you can take that money that you would be using to payback school loans and invest it. After 10 years( or 20, or 25), take a look how you have done from an investment point of view. That amount ( even if just the amount invested) is the true value of the Ruby over Yale.

So, while you may be able to say " I could have gone to Yale) at 70, the question is this: Would you rather be sitting in the house that you own in a neighborhood and talking to your grandkids, or would you rather be sitting in the house that you own, in the neighborhood ( or size of property that is of is equiliivent) that you also own and tell them this?. OR, would you like to say " sure kid I may have passed up Yale, but with the money I saved I was able to invest it- and that trust fund that you have- well that is partially how it came to be(now go grab me another mason jar of jack daniels'

- Yes, I know that the second paragraph is hyperbole: but I personally think you should look at this not solely from a school prestige standpoint- but from a financial investment standpoint. That being said, while there can be some differentiation from initial job outcomes from Yale and Chicago- you should also consider how much investment power you will be getting by taking the Ruby. ( Furthermore, what happens if you finish dead last in the graduating class at either school- Will you regret not taking on that debt??)

[Elston Gunn]

Think of it this way: by not taking out that loan money, you are paying yourself (with interest) to go to law school. When you begin working, you can take that money that you would be using to payback school loans and invest it. After 10 years( or 20, or 25), take a look how you have done from an investment point of view. That amount ( even if just the amount invested) is the true value of the Ruby over Yale.

So, while you may be able to say " I could have gone to Yale) at 70, the question is this: Would you rather be sitting in the house that you own in a neighborhood and talking to your grandkids, or would you rather be sitting in the house that you own, in the neighborhood ( or size of property that is of is equiliivent) that you also own and tell them this?. OR, would you like to say " sure kid I may have passed up Yale, but with the money I saved I was able to invest it- and that trust fund that you have- well that is partially how it came to be(now go grab me another mason jar of jack daniels'

- Yes, I know that the second paragraph is hyperbole: but I personally think you should look at this not solely from a school prestige standpoint- but from a financial investment standpoint. That being said, while there can be some differentiation from initial job outcomes from Yale and Chicago- you should also consider how much investment power you will be getting by taking the Ruby. ( Furthermore, what happens if you finish dead last in the graduating class at either school- Will you regret not taking on that debt??)

Again, not disagreeing with your conclusion (I made the opposite decision, but I think this poster, with his interests, should probably take Chicago), but if he finishes dead last in his class, he'll be better off with Yale's debt and still having a $160K job than U Chi's no debt and no job/shitlaw/whatever and having more or less wasted 3 years of his life. There's also of course no such thing as dead last at Yale (just take a clinic and you'll get an H), and his life won't be any different than if he'd been exactly median. The plausible worst case scenario is IMO one of the biggest reasons to prefer Yale, actually, at least from a financial perspective. Starting your career at Big Law, as I believe Rayiner has written some about, even if you flame out in a couple years is likely to be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars over the course of your career.

[Instinctive]

Think of it this way: by not taking out that loan money, you are paying yourself (with interest) to go to law school. When you begin working, you can take that money that you would be using to payback school loans and invest it. After 10 years( or 20, or 25), take a look how you have done from an investment point of view. That amount ( even if just the amount invested) is the true value of the Ruby over Yale.

So, while you may be able to say " I could have gone to Yale) at 70, the question is this: Would you rather be sitting in the house that you own in a neighborhood and talking to your grandkids, or would you rather be sitting in the house that you own, in the neighborhood ( or size of property that is of is equiliivent) that you also own and tell them this?. OR, would you like to say " sure kid I may have passed up Yale, but with the money I saved I was able to invest it- and that trust fund that you have- well that is partially how it came to be(now go grab me another mason jar of jack daniels'

- Yes, I know that the second paragraph is hyperbole: but I personally think you should look at this not solely from a school prestige standpoint- but from a financial investment standpoint. That being said, while there can be some differentiation from initial job outcomes from Yale and Chicago- you should also consider how much investment power you will be getting by taking the Ruby. ( Furthermore, what happens if you finish dead last in the graduating class at either school- Will you regret not taking on that debt??)

Again, not disagreeing with your conclusion (I made the opposite decision, but I think this poster, with his interests, should probably take Chicago), but if he finishes dead last in his class, he'll be better off with Yale's debt and still having a $160K job than U Chi's no debt and no job/shitlaw/whatever and having more or less wasted 3 years of his life. There's also of course no such thing as dead last at Yale (just take a clinic and you'll get an H), and his life won't be any different than if he'd been exactly median. The plausible worst case scenario is IMO one of the biggest reasons to prefer Yale, actually, at least from a financial perspective. Starting your career at Big Law, as I believe Rayiner has written some about, even if you flame out in a couple years is likely to be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars over the course of your career.

What if you strip away that security benefit at Yale and assume I finish in/near the top 10% at Chicago? With job security locked in still, what are you viewing as Yale's advantages?

I know it's conservative-TLS-blasphemy to assume I'll be near the top, but I will so it makes sense to consider it from that perspective, doesn't it?

[jbagelboy]

Think of it this way: by not taking out that loan money, you are paying yourself (with interest) to go to law school. When you begin working, you can take that money that you would be using to payback school loans and invest it. After 10 years( or 20, or 25), take a look how you have done from an investment point of view. That amount ( even if just the amount invested) is the true value of the Ruby over Yale.

So, while you may be able to say " I could have gone to Yale) at 70, the question is this: Would you rather be sitting in the house that you own in a neighborhood and talking to your grandkids, or would you rather be sitting in the house that you own, in the neighborhood ( or size of property that is of is equiliivent) that you also own and tell them this?. OR, would you like to say " sure kid I may have passed up Yale, but with the money I saved I was able to invest it- and that trust fund that you have- well that is partially how it came to be(now go grab me another mason jar of jack daniels'

- Yes, I know that the second paragraph is hyperbole: but I personally think you should look at this not solely from a school prestige standpoint- but from a financial investment standpoint. That being said, while there can be some differentiation from initial job outcomes from Yale and Chicago- you should also consider how much investment power you will be getting by taking the Ruby. ( Furthermore, what happens if you finish dead last in the graduating class at either school- Will you regret not taking on that debt??)

Again, not disagreeing with your conclusion (I made the opposite decision, but I think this poster, with his interests, should probably take Chicago), but if he finishes dead last in his class, he'll be better off with Yale's debt and still having a $160K job than U Chi's no debt and no job/shitlaw/whatever and having more or less wasted 3 years of his life. There's also of course no such thing as dead last at Yale (just take a clinic and you'll get an H), and his life won't be any different than if he'd been exactly median. The plausible worst case scenario is IMO one of the biggest reasons to prefer Yale, actually, at least from a financial perspective. Starting your career at Big Law, as I believe Rayiner has written some about, even if you flame out in a couple years is likely to be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars over the course of your career.

Okay but chances of a Rubenstein fellow being at the bottom of the class are exactly zero, taking into account past performance of other fellows and numerical correlation. If you look at past ruby recipients, I don't think any of them have faced shitlaw.

Moreover, in c/o 2013 there were 8 students with no work at graduation at yale (4%) and only 3 at Chicago (1.4%). So if we're talking absolute worst case scenarios you're just as likely if not more to be jobless at Yale. And this is assuming all Yale JD advantage/part time/short term/ect positions are fully legit.

Tl;dr you're scarecrowing

[Paul Campos]

Again, the relevant comparison in these scenarios is not YLS students versus Chicago students, but YLS students who turned down Rubys and Hamiltons versus Ruby and Hamilton students. It's not clear at all that there's any difference in career outcomes, even in terms of unicorn jobs -- let alone normal law graduate jobs -- between these two groups.

As for paying $150K just to be able to tell your grandkids that you went to Yale, try to avoid becoming that person.

[Pulsar]

Are you going to still be really sad at age 70, telling your grandkids "yeah, I could have gone to Yale, but..."? Or are you going to get over it? If it's the former, then maybe that lifetime of security is worth 150k to you, since you'll make that difference up within a decade at the most. Or maybe you want to start debt free and aren't going to be haunted by prestige demons. Only you can know. The rest of us here are just making objective assessments that can't take into account the fact that you're an actual human being with non-objective feelings and goals on top of objective ones.

Seriously this is asinine. There are arguments to be made in favor of Yale, but fear of "prestige demons" is not one of them. Just lol. Insecurities suck but they're not worth paying $300k over.

[eph]

Yeah... And just so OP knows, there are a lot of opportunities to do this, even with just a JD. At UChicago (and I assume other places are similar), we've had Goldman Sachs, BCG, and other random non-law related places looking for JDs to do summer internships, and although a lot of people have attended the info sessions, I know of 0 people who actually applied for those jobs. Accordingly, if you've got a strong resume and the right background, I imagine that you could have your pick of such work during the summers.

Don't want to seem argumentative but this is a lot like saying Wachtell, Sullivan, and Skadden came to a t-6 school and are looking for summers. Your odds would be about the same at JP Morgan and Goldman. Can't comment on the other random non-law places.

[09042014]

Why are you going to law school at all? You don't seem to want to actually practice law. Seems like a poor choice going to law school.

[Instinctive]

Why are you going to law school at all? You don't seem to want to actually practice law. Seems like a poor choice going to law school.

I want to do things you need a JD for. Include practice law for a short time.

Let's maybe accept the premise of the thread, which is that I am choosing between 2 options, not that I am trying to figure out why law. I maybe wrote "why law" in the personal statement that got me into these places. Thanks for thinking though!

[jbagelboy]

Yeah... And just so OP knows, there are a lot of opportunities to do this, even with just a JD. At UChicago (and I assume other places are similar), we've had Goldman Sachs, BCG, and other random non-law related places looking for JDs to do summer internships, and although a lot of people have attended the info sessions, I know of 0 people who actually applied for those jobs. Accordingly, if you've got a strong resume and the right background, I imagine that you could have your pick of such work during the summers.

Don't want to seem argumentative but this is a lot like saying Wachtell, Sullivan, and Skadden came to a t-6 school and are looking for summers. Your odds would be about the same at JP Morgan and Goldman. Can't comment on the other random non-law places.

Lol, I mean, I agree high finance is not terrifically accessible, but to be fair the bolded firms in addition to Cravath, DPW, ect are some of the most popular destinations for T6 students, so I'm not really sure that helps your point. Over 20% of CLS's class summers at one of those firms.

[Elston Gunn]

Think of it this way: by not taking out that loan money, you are paying yourself (with interest) to go to law school. When you begin working, you can take that money that you would be using to payback school loans and invest it. After 10 years( or 20, or 25), take a look how you have done from an investment point of view. That amount ( even if just the amount invested) is the true value of the Ruby over Yale.

So, while you may be able to say " I could have gone to Yale) at 70, the question is this: Would you rather be sitting in the house that you own in a neighborhood and talking to your grandkids, or would you rather be sitting in the house that you own, in the neighborhood ( or size of property that is of is equiliivent) that you also own and tell them this?. OR, would you like to say " sure kid I may have passed up Yale, but with the money I saved I was able to invest it- and that trust fund that you have- well that is partially how it came to be(now go grab me another mason jar of jack daniels'

- Yes, I know that the second paragraph is hyperbole: but I personally think you should look at this not solely from a school prestige standpoint- but from a financial investment standpoint. That being said, while there can be some differentiation from initial job outcomes from Yale and Chicago- you should also consider how much investment power you will be getting by taking the Ruby. ( Furthermore, what happens if you finish dead last in the graduating class at either school- Will you regret not taking on that debt??)

Again, not disagreeing with your conclusion (I made the opposite decision, but I think this poster, with his interests, should probably take Chicago), but if he finishes dead last in his class, he'll be better off with Yale's debt and still having a $160K job than U Chi's no debt and no job/shitlaw/whatever and having more or less wasted 3 years of his life. There's also of course no such thing as dead last at Yale (just take a clinic and you'll get an H), and his life won't be any different than if he'd been exactly median. The plausible worst case scenario is IMO one of the biggest reasons to prefer Yale, actually, at least from a financial perspective. Starting your career at Big Law, as I believe Rayiner has written some about, even if you flame out in a couple years is likely to be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars over the course of your career.

Okay but chances of a Rubenstein fellow being at the bottom of the class are exactly zero, taking into account past performance of other fellows and numerical correlation. If you look at past ruby recipients, I don't think any of them have faced shitlaw.

Moreover, in c/o 2013 there were 8 students with no work at graduation at yale (4%) and only 3 at Chicago (1.4%). So if we're talking absolute worst case scenarios you're just as likely if not more to be jobless at Yale. And this is assuming all Yale JD advantage/part time/short term/ect positions are fully legit.

Tl;dr you're scarecrowing

Is that different from strawmanning?

It's probably true that Rubys don't fall at the bottom of the class, and probably don't miss out on big law much if at all, either, but there are lots of T6ers that want firms that don't get them. There are a couple maybe at Yale, but the odds are vanishingly small if you don't completely screw up FIP (i.e. if you bid NYC even a little).

It's true that it's possible to graduate jobless at Yale if you're looking only at policy or very specific jobs, which the school is kind of misleading about.

[Elston Gunn]

Again, the relevant comparison in these scenarios is not YLS students versus Chicago students, but YLS students who turned down Rubys and Hamiltons versus Ruby and Hamilton students. It's not clear at all that there's any difference in career outcomes, even in terms of unicorn jobs -- let alone normal law graduate jobs -- between these two groups.

Yeah, this is true. Though I don't have regrets yet, since I'm happy very happy with how things have turned out so far, I think I would have taken the Ruby if I were deciding again today. I took the "I'm not a special snowflake" idea to an extreme, and really didn't trust myself to be anything other than a median student (who might as easily end up far below that as easily above) and wanted the gigantic safety net Yale provides. I think I'd be a little more confident in retrospect.

[Borg]

I absolutely loved getting my JD/MBA and recommend it to everyone, but I'd still take UChicago Law for free over Yale JD/MBA. Yale SOM isn't that strong and that road is going to cost you an arm and a leg. I'd rather go to Chicago and just network the shit out of Chicago to get internships in finance during the academic year during 2L and 3L. After the 1L pressure is off and you've figured out what you're doing, the whole game becomes a lot easier and you can do things like this. Also, load up on b school classes. See if you can use the Rubinstein connections to make sure that the b school accommodates you and gives you a slot in their classes because of your "research interests" or whatever you need to show them. The way to organize b school classes starting your 2L year would be:

Semester 1: 2 classes - Accounting and corporate finance
Semester 2: 1 class - Capital markets or similar (whatever class it is that offers a broad overview of debt and equity pricing, market mechanics etc.)
Semester 3 and beyond: Advanced accounting courses dealing with fundamental security analysis, advanced finance courses.

And I can't stress this enough, intern like crazy during 2L and 3L in non-law jobs.

@Borg - if I am business undergrad, do you think I'll be able to dive right into advanced accounting and finance type stuff? Given I've already taken courses such as Advanced corporate finance, investment and portfolio management (and theory) have a degree in accounting, etc…I'm not some humanities person who doesn't know what financial statements are

Anyone with cross-registration experience know anything about how much the b-schools recognize this?

Yes. It's not like the intro stuff is any different, GAAP is GAAP, so for sure dive into the deeper stuff. Seriously man, take the scholarship no matter how ASW goes. You can talk yourself out of anything based on some tiny "issue" you create. A UChicago degree for free is worth 10 Yale degrees with debt. If we were talking about Michigan or Cornell it might be closer because employment isn't as strong, but this is a different ball game. Chicago is a powerhouse.

[Blessedassurance]

if you're going to turn down the ruby (which you shouldn't), you'll be better off at harvard or stanford, in light of your business interests, than at yale.

[09042014]

Why are you going to law school at all? You don't seem to want to actually practice law. Seems like a poor choice going to law school.

I want to do things you need a JD for. Include practice law for a short time.

Let's maybe accept the premise of the thread, which is that I am choosing between 2 options, not that I am trying to figure out why law. I maybe wrote "why law" in the personal statement that got me into these places. Thanks for thinking though!

Go to Yale and choke on student debt.

[20141023]

.