FINAL: NYU ($) v. Duke ($$) v. HLS - LS22 needs your help Forum

[lawschool22]

Bumping this in case anyone else wants to chime in.

[Nonconsecutive]

Have you considered the mailbox situation at each school?

[lawschool22]

Have you considered the mailbox situation at each school?

Haha good one. I'm going to guess Duke would win that one.

[tlsapp2017]

-Where you are from and where you want to work: From the Midwest, but my primary goal is DC. I would take NYC and Chicago as well.

To a certain extent, this may depend on the bolded section. NYU will give you a significantly better shot at NY BigLaw than either of the other schools - my impression is that, if you want NY biglaw coming from NYU, and you aren't well below the median, you can generally get it. If DC is waaay higher on the list than Chicago/NY, that might change the equation, although to be honest, if you're going to be doing biglaw for several years after graduation, the debt probably shouldn't be as much of a factor as it would be if you were interested in another field/career path.

Also extremely important: have you visited all/any of these schools? Did one of them appeal to you more than the rest?


Edited for clarity/typos

[lawschool22]

-Where you are from and where you want to work: From the Midwest, but my primary goal is DC. I would take NYC and Chicago as well.

To a certain extent, this may depend on the bolded section. NYU will give you a significantly better shot at NY BigLaw than either of the other schools - my impression is that, if you want NY biglaw coming from NYU, and you aren't well below the median, you can generally get it. If DC is waaay higher on the list than Chicago/NY, that might change the equation, although to be honest, if you're going to be doing biglaw for several years after graduation, the debt probably shouldn't be as much of a factor as it would be if you were interested in another field/career path.

Also extremely important: have you visited all/any of these schools? Did one of them appeal to you more than the rest?


Edited for clarity/typos

I am planning on doing biglaw for a few years, but I feel like an extra 2 grand/month in payments could put a lot of pressure on my quality of life if I did end up in NYC (or any other big city for that matter) and I just don't know if it's worth it.

I agree with you that NYU would provide a bigger safety net, the question is, how much is that worth?

To your other point, I haven't visited them yet, but will be visiting all three over the course of the next three-to-four weeks.

[rickgrimes69]

NYU will give you a significantly better shot at NY BigLaw than either of the other schools

Not $75,000 better

[tlsapp2017]

NYU will give you a significantly better shot at NY BigLaw than either of the other schools

Not $75,000 better

It depends how you look at it. If you want to do Big Law, then doing Big Law minus $75,000 is probably better than not getting Big Law and being $75k less in debt. Not saying that attending NYU will guarantee BigLaw and that attending Duke or NU will not allow someone to get BigLaw, but there are certainly people that would lose out on BigLaw by attending a lower-ranked school, assuming it's basically just as difficult/easy to get median grades at NYU than it is at Duke or Northwestern. So it's all part of the risk calculation - if you think that you'll ultimately get BigLaw no matter what, this isn't an issue; as far as I'm concerned, though, there's no way to know. Ultimately, though, I'd recommend to go to whatever school you like the most, since the options are probably roughly equivalent in a lot of ways.

[cotiger]

Here's how I think about it: If you're in the top 70% most desirable candidates, Duke/NU will be more favorable because of the $75k-$100k reduction in debt (and more than that in reality, once you factor in interest accruing while in repayment). If you're in the next 15% most desirable, then NYU will lead to a MUCH more favorable outcome. If you're in the 15% least desirable, then Duke/NU will be more favorable again.

So roughly 85% of the time Duke/NU will lead to the better outcome. Granted, that 15% of the time that NYU would be better has a much larger spread between NYU and Duke/NU, but I wouldn't sniff at the difference in QOL that extra $75k-$100k gets you, such as being able to fully repay the loans by the time you're done with your short stint in biglaw.

[Nyclawyer618]

-Your general career goals: DC biglaw (litigation) immediately after graduation, with the hope of moving into federal government after a few years in biglaw (3-5 years probably, depending on available opportunities).

Lulz. Good luck getting any of that with your current options.

[rayiner]

Here's how I think about it: If you're in the top 70% most desirable candidates, Duke/NU will be more favorable because of the $75k-$100k reduction in debt (and more than that in reality, once you factor in interest accruing while in repayment). If you're in the next 15% most desirable, then NYU will lead to a MUCH more favorable outcome. If you're in the 15% least desirable, then Duke/NU will be more favorable again.

So roughly 85% of the time Duke/NU will lead to the better outcome. Granted, that 15% of the time that NYU would be better has a much larger spread between NYU and Duke/NU, but I wouldn't sniff at the difference in QOL that extra $75k-$100k gets you, such as being able to fully repay the loans by the time you're done with your short stint in biglaw.

I think that "15%" is more like "5-10%". In terms of "big law + clerkships" NYU is less than 4% ahead of NU in C/O 2013. Yes, that data ignores the PI self-selection at NYU, but it also ignores the big JD-MBA class and its business/industry self-selection at NU.

Which brings us back to "is NYU worth $75k more." NYU obviously has a better reputation, and a great location. On the other hand, it also has to place 250+ more students than NU in a very saturated legal market.

[love4life29]

.

[09042014]

Here's how I think about it: If you're in the top 70% most desirable candidates, Duke/NU will be more favorable because of the $75k-$100k reduction in debt (and more than that in reality, once you factor in interest accruing while in repayment). If you're in the next 15% most desirable, then NYU will lead to a MUCH more favorable outcome. If you're in the 15% least desirable, then Duke/NU will be more favorable again.

So roughly 85% of the time Duke/NU will lead to the better outcome. Granted, that 15% of the time that NYU would be better has a much larger spread between NYU and Duke/NU, but I wouldn't sniff at the difference in QOL that extra $75k-$100k gets you, such as being able to fully repay the loans by the time you're done with your short stint in biglaw.

I think that "15%" is more like "5-10%". In terms of "big law + clerkships" NYU is less than 4% ahead of NU in C/O 2013. Yes, that data ignores the PI self-selection at NYU, but it also ignores the big JD-MBA class and its business/industry self-selection at NU.

Which brings us back to "is NYU worth $75k more." NYU obviously has a better reputation, and a great location. On the other hand, it also has to place 250+ more students than NU in a very saturated legal market.

Also it ignores the NW students who bid on Chicago and strike out, who probably could have gotten a job in NYC where it is easier. It's got a slightly better reputation in one city. NYU doesn't mean shit to people outside NYC.

[cotiger]

Here's how I think about it: If you're in the top 70% most desirable candidates, Duke/NU will be more favorable because of the $75k-$100k reduction in debt (and more than that in reality, once you factor in interest accruing while in repayment). If you're in the next 15% most desirable, then NYU will lead to a MUCH more favorable outcome. If you're in the 15% least desirable, then Duke/NU will be more favorable again.

So roughly 85% of the time Duke/NU will lead to the better outcome. Granted, that 15% of the time that NYU would be better has a much larger spread between NYU and Duke/NU, but I wouldn't sniff at the difference in QOL that extra $75k-$100k gets you, such as being able to fully repay the loans by the time you're done with your short stint in biglaw.

I think that "15%" is more like "5-10%". In terms of "big law + clerkships" NYU is less than 4% ahead of NU in C/O 2013. Yes, that data ignores the PI self-selection at NYU, but it also ignores the big JD-MBA class and its business/industry self-selection at NU.

Which brings us back to "is NYU worth $75k more." NYU obviously has a better reputation, and a great location. On the other hand, it also has to place 250+ more students than NU in a very saturated legal market.

Also it ignores the NW students who bid on Chicago and strike out, who probably could have gotten a job in NYC where it is easier. It's got a slightly better reputation in one city. NYU doesn't mean shit to people outside NYC.

As I'm also contemplating a similar decision, about what percentage of NU students do you think can get biglaw if they just bid NYC?

[09042014]

Here's how I think about it: If you're in the top 70% most desirable candidates, Duke/NU will be more favorable because of the $75k-$100k reduction in debt (and more than that in reality, once you factor in interest accruing while in repayment). If you're in the next 15% most desirable, then NYU will lead to a MUCH more favorable outcome. If you're in the 15% least desirable, then Duke/NU will be more favorable again.

So roughly 85% of the time Duke/NU will lead to the better outcome. Granted, that 15% of the time that NYU would be better has a much larger spread between NYU and Duke/NU, but I wouldn't sniff at the difference in QOL that extra $75k-$100k gets you, such as being able to fully repay the loans by the time you're done with your short stint in biglaw.

I think that "15%" is more like "5-10%". In terms of "big law + clerkships" NYU is less than 4% ahead of NU in C/O 2013. Yes, that data ignores the PI self-selection at NYU, but it also ignores the big JD-MBA class and its business/industry self-selection at NU.

Which brings us back to "is NYU worth $75k more." NYU obviously has a better reputation, and a great location. On the other hand, it also has to place 250+ more students than NU in a very saturated legal market.

Also it ignores the NW students who bid on Chicago and strike out, who probably could have gotten a job in NYC where it is easier. It's got a slightly better reputation in one city. NYU doesn't mean shit to people outside NYC.

As I'm also contemplating a similar decision, about what percentage of NU students do you think can get biglaw if they just bid NYC?

Who knows, it's not worth speculating about. If I were a 0L, I'd assume that all the non HYS T13 place roughly the same. It's not a coincidence that schools that mostly send students to NYC are magically, suddenly doing better than everyone else since the crash.

That said there is a pretty strong bias at some of the top Prefstigious NYC firms for CCN students. V5 will dip a lot lower at CCN than the t14. However, there doesn't seem to be a stronger demand for CCN students below median compared to the rest of the t14.

Go cheapest.

[buffalo_]

Who knows, it's not worth speculating about. If I were a 0L, I'd assume that all the non HYS T13 place roughly the same. It's not a coincidence that schools that mostly send students to NYC are magically, suddenly doing better than everyone else since the crash.

That said there is a pretty strong bias at some of the top Prefstigious NYC firms for CCN students. V5 will dip a lot lower at CCN than the t14. However, there doesn't seem to be a stronger demand for CCN students below median compared to the rest of the t14.

Go cheapest.

What data are you using to make these assumptions? CLS had 78% get BigLaw/Fed Clerkship last year. If you assume all of the top 50% of the class did BigLaw or clarkships (a reasonable assumption), then that means over half of the students below medians also got BigLaw. That's a huge difference from most T14 (whats with the T13 and T12 digs?).

ETA: I still think LS22 should go to Duke though. The $75k difference between NYU and Duke is not insignificant. I think NU and Duke are close, and you could justifiably choose which ever one you prefer for any soft factors (culture, specific profs, etc). But I personally would choose Duke because for $30k more you get a slightly better shot at clerkship (8.7% is pretty great) and places much better in DC than NU. $30K is essentially the cost of a new car. It's a lot, but it isn't so much extra debt that you couldn't compensate for this by living more frugally for a few years. (Also COL in Durham will be cheaper than @ NU so maybe the difference in reality is smaller).

[rayiner]

Who knows, it's not worth speculating about. If I were a 0L, I'd assume that all the non HYS T13 place roughly the same. It's not a coincidence that schools that mostly send students to NYC are magically, suddenly doing better than everyone else since the crash.

That said there is a pretty strong bias at some of the top Prefstigious NYC firms for CCN students. V5 will dip a lot lower at CCN than the t14. However, there doesn't seem to be a stronger demand for CCN students below median compared to the rest of the t14.

Go cheapest.

What data are you using to make these assumptions? CLS had 78% get BigLaw/Fed Clerkship last year. If you assume all of the top 50% of the class did BigLaw or clarkships (a reasonable assumption), then that means over half of the students below medians also got BigLaw. That's a huge difference from most T14 (whats with the T13 and T12 digs?).

We're talking about NYU and NU, which was 67% versus 63%. I think both numbers understate the percentage of people who can get big law if they wanted. You have JD-MBA's, people who really just want PI/Gov, people who want academia, people who bid DC. I know more people who got no-offered than ones who bid strategically and still struck out. I don't have first hand experience with NYU, but I don't think the situation there is $75k different, and the data doesn't suggest that either. Maybe Columbia is palpably better for folks below the median. The data certainly suggests that.

[Tiago Splitter]

c/o 2007 NLJ250 placement:



I wouldn't worry about missing the biglaw boat from Columbia. But I feel like posters who are really thinking about this stuff and asking the right questions aren't going to strike out from most of the rest of the T-14 either. Not to mention that whether it's even a good outcome to get biglaw with 230k in debt is far from a certainty.

[buffalo_]

Who knows, it's not worth speculating about. If I were a 0L, I'd assume that all the non HYS T13 place roughly the same. It's not a coincidence that schools that mostly send students to NYC are magically, suddenly doing better than everyone else since the crash.

That said there is a pretty strong bias at some of the top Prefstigious NYC firms for CCN students. V5 will dip a lot lower at CCN than the t14. However, there doesn't seem to be a stronger demand for CCN students below median compared to the rest of the t14.

Go cheapest.

What data are you using to make these assumptions? CLS had 78% get BigLaw/Fed Clerkship last year. If you assume all of the top 50% of the class did BigLaw or clarkships (a reasonable assumption), then that means over half of the students below medians also got BigLaw. That's a huge difference from most T14 (whats with the T13 and T12 digs?).

We're talking about NYU and NU, which was 67% versus 63%.

That's fair. I think that maybe N on down is all pretty similar within the T14. Anyone of them could have a huge year. And who knows, maybe even CLS had an freakishly strong year and will not be able to repeat. Penn had a similar spike last year but has since fallen back to the rest of the T14 pack. The only slight advantage I would grant CCN is the consistency. They have been 4-6 for a while now because they consistently have good BigLaw hiring numbers. The rest of the T14 can surpass any one of them in any year, but is a little more volatile.

[Chiller303]

Desert Fox wrote:
Also it ignores the NW students who bid on Chicago and strike out, who probably could have gotten a job in NYC where it is easier. It's got a slightly better reputation in one city. NYU doesn't mean shit to people outside NYC.

This is neither helpful, smart, nor true. You're either an egregious Chicago troll or a OL. Either way, this person is trying to make a decision with the rest of his or her life. I'd be less cavalier in casting aspersions, no matter how justified it makes you feel in the choices you've made or are about to make.

[rayiner]

That's fair. I think that maybe N on down is all pretty similar within the T14. Anyone of them could have a huge year. And who knows, maybe even CLS had an freakishly strong year and will not be able to repeat. Penn had a similar spike last year but has since fallen back to the rest of the T14 pack. The only slight advantage I would grant CCN is the consistency. They have been 4-6 for a while now because they consistently have good BigLaw hiring numbers. The rest of the T14 can surpass any one of them in any year, but is a little more volatile.

I just crunched the 3-year averages using Regulus's charts:

School: 3y Avg., Std. Dev.
Columbia: 73.2%, 4.33
NYU: 62.1%, 6.96
Chicago: 65.9%, 10.06
Penn: 71.1%, 5.27
NU: 60.1%, 4.00
Virginia: 57.0%, 8.15

People want to hold on to this 'CCN' grouping, but the data just doesn't bear it out. The three schools with the lowest volatility are NU, Columbia, and Penn. The three schools with the highest placement are Columbia, Penn, and Chicago. NYU has a slight edge over NU over three years, but also more variation from year-to-year.

[buffalo_]

That's fair. I think that maybe N on down is all pretty similar within the T14. Anyone of them could have a huge year. And who knows, maybe even CLS had an freakishly strong year and will not be able to repeat. Penn had a similar spike last year but has since fallen back to the rest of the T14 pack. The only slight advantage I would grant CCN is the consistency. They have been 4-6 for a while now because they consistently have good BigLaw hiring numbers. The rest of the T14 can surpass any one of them in any year, but is a little more volatile.

I just crunched the 3-year averages using Regulus's charts:

School: 3y Avg., Std. Dev.
Columbia: 73.2%, 4.33
NYU: 62.1%, 6.96
Chicago: 65.9%, 10.06
Penn: 71.1%, 5.27
NU: 60.1%, 4.00
Virginia: 57.0%, 8.15

People want to hold on to this 'CCN' grouping, but the data just doesn't bear it out. The three schools with the lowest volatility are NU, Columbia, and Penn. The three schools with the highest placement are Columbia, Penn, and Chicago. NYU has a slight edge over NU over three years, but also more variation from year-to-year.

So really we should be saying HYS CP CNN

I would be more interested in a 5 or 7 year average than 3 years though.

[R1chardParker]

Desert Fox wrote:
Also it ignores the NW students who bid on Chicago and strike out, who probably could have gotten a job in NYC where it is easier. It's got a slightly better reputation in one city. NYU doesn't mean shit to people outside NYC.

This is neither helpful, smart, nor true. You're either an egregious Chicago troll or a OL. Either way, this person is trying to make a decision with the rest of his or her life. I'd be less cavalier in casting aspersions, no matter how justified it makes you feel in the choices you've made or are about to make.

Desert Fox is an NU grad working in biglaw. As an NU 2L, I also don't want to speculate, but did see anecdotally at OCI that people bidding Chicago ended up with fewer options and had a larger chance of striking out than those bidding NYC.

[herrowww]

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mkl45eei ... ol-of-law/
Forbes ranked NU 3rd, only behind Columbia and Harvard. Food for thought, but Chicago has 10000 more things to do than Durham. As far as Chicago vs NYC, I would take the smaller and cleaner city (not to mention SAFER) any day. The choice is yours, but I think this debate should be between Duke and NU, unless you don't mind $200,000+ debt at NYU. Great job opportunities, great city, awesome scholarship, and great pay upon graduation. NU is the obvious winner.

[cotiger]

As far as Chicago vs NYC, I would take the smaller and cleaner city (not to mention SAFER) any day.

LOL wtf are you getting that from?

[buffalo_]

As far as Chicago vs NYC, I would take the smaller and cleaner city (not to mention SAFER) any day.

Um, there is a reason the term "Chiraq" gets tossed around.