Michigan($$) vs. Harvard(sticker) Forum

[cotiger]

I think the $140k number is a little high. If you say tuition increases around $3,000 a year you get a total of $172,050. Subtracting $25,000 a year from spousal income leaves $97,050. Also, this ignores summer income from the student which should be somewhere between $10,000 and $30,000 for the two summers combined. In addition, this does not take into account any assets the OP may have (which is likely considering their spouse's income from last year).

In summation, I would wager that OP would have less than $100k in debt from going to Harvard and it is likely that it would be less than $75k.

How do you get 172k? Tuition and fees is 58k this year. Plus the 5k COL difference between Cambridge and AA gives you 63k/yr. Assuming 3.5% tuition increase (~$2k/yr). Subtract 25k/yr extra SO income. OP wants PI, so say $7.5k summer income for each summer (didn't account for this before). If there were notable assets that would be contributed, OP likely would've mentioned them.

This results in $125k indebtedness at repayment. Total of $175k over 10 years. Compared to $15k in the bank at Michigan. That's a 190k difference, not accounting for growth in the 15k over the 10 years. http://www.law.georgetown.edu/admission ... geid=61621

[AllTheLawz]

Ok. So if OP doesn't make much, file taxes separately, pay very little toward loans using PAYE for ten years and then have the balance forgiven. LIPP doesn't change that.

Not really sure. I think the issue is that you have to have continuous employment in PI for ten years for IBR to work (apparently difficult to pull off), which is why the PI people generally say go to somewhere for cheap rather than highly ranked with debt if you're shooting for PI. But I'm sure worldtraveler et al have more insight.

Filing taxes separately doesn't shield income for LIPP. I can't for certain about PAYE/IBR but I would imagine thats a loophole that would account for.

[Tiago Splitter]

Ok. So if OP doesn't make much, file taxes separately, pay very little toward loans using PAYE for ten years and then have the balance forgiven. LIPP doesn't change that.

Not really sure. I think the issue is that you have to have continuous employment in PI for ten years for IBR to work (apparently difficult to pull off), which is why the PI people generally say go to somewhere for cheap rather than highly ranked with debt if you're shooting for PI. But I'm sure worldtraveler et al have more insight.

Filing taxes separately doesn't shield income for LIPP. I can't for certain about PAYE/IBR but I would imagine thats a loophole that would account for.

It does work for PAYE but as worldtraveler mentioned other things need to be taken into account. IRA contributions, for example, go out the window if you file separately.

[ColbyBryant]

Thank you all for continuing to contribute and to help us sort through this decision. I want to respond to some of these points and calculations, but am at work right now. I will be back ASAP to fill in some holes and to give more realistic expectations of COA given interest rates and (hopeful) contributions from my husband.

We really appreciate all of your input

[sasquatchsam]

I was simply looking at tuition for 2013-2014 and not counting their health insurance fees (I was counting those as COL). Also, I think your $58,000 number includes a travel allowance, an allowance for dental insurance, and $1,200 for books which is rather high from the information I have received.

I'll take your numbers though.

$180,000 ($58,000+$60,000+$62,000)
-$75,000 (SO Contribution)
-$15,000 (Student Summer Income)

= $90,000 debt

Still not sure where you are getting $125,000 in debt but I would be glad to hear if there are additional expenses I should be considering since I am facing a similar decision to OP

[cotiger]

I was simply looking at tuition for 2013-2014 and not counting their health insurance fees (I was counting those as COL). Also, I think your $58,000 number includes a travel allowance, an allowance for dental insurance, and $1,200 for books which is rather high from the information I have received.

I'll take your numbers though.

$180,000 ($58,000+$60,000+$62,000)
-$75,000 (SO Contribution)
-$15,000 (Student Summer Income)

= $90,000 debt

Still not sure where you are getting $125,000 in debt but I would be glad to hear if there are additional expenses I should be considering since I am facing a similar decision to OP

I was using the tuition and fees that the OP was using (she said H tuition and fees plus 15k for increased COL would be 190k, and 58*3+15=189)

You're neglecting the 5k COL difference between Cambridge and AA. You're also neglecting the effect of interest. Go to this financial aid calculator and type in 63,000 for 1L. Put in 25k yearly contributions from SO and 7.5k in 2L and 3L for summer earnings.

This results in 125k at repayment, and 175k total if following the 10-year repayment plan.

It's also quite possible that the interest rate is higher than shown here, because this assumes the old 6.8%/7.9% rates. Right now, that's still about where they'd be, but if the economy continues to improve at all, they will likely rise. The current cap is at 9.5%/10.5%.

[sasquatchsam]

I thought you were saying that OP's spouse could cover COL at H plus contribute $25k to tuition but if you meant that OP's spouse could cover COL at Michigan plus contribute $25k, then your numbers are more accurate.

I think the easiest way to calculate the difference is to only compare final numbers rather than trying to adjust for COL differences. I have been doing a lot of research on the COA at H with a spouse and the total for three years should be around $290,000. Just subtract the expected income from that and it should give you a good estimate. Obviously you will then have to calculate interest on the debt while in school but it should be within a few thousand.

[akg144]

I would take the Darrow over Harvard sticker. Shy of that, barring extenuating family circumstances, I'd probably head to cambridge.

Darrow meh prob still < H; Hamilton or Rubby Yes;

[ColbyBryant]

So I crunched some numbers. First off, I think that the Georgetown calculator is still using the old interest rates? The rates were recently changed and fixed at 5.41% for Stafford and 6.41$ for Grad PLUS. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Anyways, we are operating under the impression that my husband will not be able to pay for any tuition along the way, especially in Cambridge. Like one poster noted...yes, years down the road if he sells his company and makes a million dollars, this will no longer be an issue . However, for now we know that I will not need loans for cost of living.

So, Realistic expectations...

Graduating from Harvard with about $190,000 of loans at the start of repayment (this is tuition + fees + interest). With an average interest rate of 6.08% on these loans (~60k of stafford @5.41%, the remainder at Grad PLUS at 6.41%), the result is about $250,000 over 10 years...or monthly payments of about $2125.

Graduating from Michigan with about $90,000 of loans at the start of repayment (discounted tuition + fees + interest). With an average interest rate of 5.72% (same reasoning as above), the result is about $119,000 over 10 years... or monthly payments of about $990. Plus the lower cost of living means husband is more likely to defray additional minor differences in total cost of attendance, like maybe covering books or other fees.


Really crunching the numbers it is amazing how many threads there are where a lower T10 or T14 is compared to a CCN and people brush off a difference as "only" 90k or 120k. Not to say that I have made my choice, but it is certainly scary to see the numbers.

Also, please check my math! I would love to see that I am off by 100k or so..

Thank you all so much for your continued input!!

[CTT]

So I crunched some numbers. First off, I think that the Georgetown calculator is still using the old interest rates? The rates were recently changed and fixed at 5.41% for Stafford and 6.41$ for Grad PLUS. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Anyways, we are operating under the impression that my husband will not be able to pay for any tuition along the way, especially in Cambridge. Like one poster noted...yes, years down the road if he sells his company and makes a million dollars, this will no longer be an issue . However, for now we know that I will not need loans for cost of living.

So, Realistic expectations...

Graduating from Harvard with about $190,000 of loans at the start of repayment (this is tuition + fees + interest). With an average interest rate of 6.08% on these loans (~60k of stafford @5.41%, the remainder at Grad PLUS at 6.41%), the result is about $250,000 over 10 years...or monthly payments of about $2125.

Graduating from Michigan with about $90,000 of loans at the start of repayment (discounted tuition + fees + interest). With an average interest rate of 5.72% (same reasoning as above), the result is about $119,000 over 10 years... or monthly payments of about $990. Plus the lower cost of living means husband is more likely to defray additional minor differences in total cost of attendance, like maybe covering books or other fees.


Really crunching the numbers it is amazing how many threads there are where a lower T10 or T14 is compared to a CCN and people brush off a difference as "only" 90k or 120k. Not to say that I have made my choice, but it is certainly scary to see the numbers.

Also, please check my math! I would love to see that I am off by 100k or so..

Thank you all so much for your continued input!!

Unless I'm mistaken, the interest rates now reset every June, so it's more likely you're looking at 6-8 percent, maybe higher by the time you're a 3L. To be clear, they are fixed-rate after they disperse.

[cotiger]

So I crunched some numbers. First off, I think that the Georgetown calculator is still using the old interest rates? The rates were recently changed and fixed at 5.41% for Stafford and 6.41$ for Grad PLUS. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Anyways, we are operating under the impression that my husband will not be able to pay for any tuition along the way, especially in Cambridge. Like one poster noted...yes, years down the road if he sells his company and makes a million dollars, this will no longer be an issue . However, for now we know that I will not need loans for cost of living.

So, Realistic expectations...

Graduating from Harvard with about $190,000 of loans at the start of repayment (this is tuition + fees + interest). With an average interest rate of 6.08% on these loans (~60k of stafford @5.41%, the remainder at Grad PLUS at 6.41%), the result is about $250,000 over 10 years...or monthly payments of about $2125.

Graduating from Michigan with about $90,000 of loans at the start of repayment (discounted tuition + fees + interest). With an average interest rate of 5.72% (same reasoning as above), the result is about $119,000 over 10 years... or monthly payments of about $990. Plus the lower cost of living means husband is more likely to defray additional minor differences in total cost of attendance, like maybe covering books or other fees.


Really crunching the numbers it is amazing how many threads there are where a lower T10 or T14 is compared to a CCN and people brush off a difference as "only" 90k or 120k. Not to say that I have made my choice, but it is certainly scary to see the numbers.

Also, please check my math! I would love to see that I am off by 100k or so..

Thank you all so much for your continued input!!

Your numbers are a bit off, but not in the direction you want. I'm not sure how you're getting to 190k including interest at repayment. Tuition + mandatory fees = $54,748. Note that this does not include health insurance, dental insurance, or the "travel allowance". With the extra $5k COL, you're starting out at $59,748 -- which, after adding in a total of 15k for two years summer employment, and taking out GradPLUS loan fees (4.288%), leads to $209k at repayment and $299k over ten years.

Stafford/GradPLUS rates now change yearly, though they are fixed once you take them out. If they set the rates today, they would be 6.3%/7.3%, not much different from what's used in the calculator. They are also quite likely to go up, as we are near historical lows and the economy continues to improve. Overall, interest rate fluctuations would be more likely to increase your total cost from that calculator rather than decrease it.

At Michigan, tuition and fees is $53,029 (not counting books this time). Doing the same adjustments as I did for Harvard results in $69k at repayment and $96k over ten years.

[jbagelboy]

I would take the Darrow over Harvard sticker. Shy of that, barring extenuating family circumstances, I'd probably head to cambridge.

Darrow meh prob still < H; Hamilton or Rubby Yes;

Personal preference. I would take Darrow/Mordecai/ect over Harvard at sticker, and half-tuition (Butler ect) or more at CC over Harvard at sticker. To each his own

[cotiger]

I would take the Darrow over Harvard sticker. Shy of that, barring extenuating family circumstances, I'd probably head to cambridge.

Darrow meh prob still < H; Hamilton or Rubby Yes;

Personal preference. I would take Darrow/Mordecai/ect over Harvard at sticker, and half-tuition (Butler ect) or more at CC over Harvard at sticker. To each his own

You guys would take H over Mich here in your personal situations. But what about OP's? I mean, she has a PI preference and is unable to participate in LIPP due to her husband's business income (which he assumedly plows back into the business--the reason why he can't contribute above COL). There's a $200k difference over 10 years between the two.. I don't see the Harvard placement boost to be anywhere near worth it for her.

[Tiago Splitter]

But again, there is no way it will make sense not to file separately if she is only making 40k and working towards PSLF. So it can be arranged to have the government forgive the vast majority of the loans if OP goes the PI route.

That said, this sounds like exactly the kind of person who will end up gunning for large firm work during OCI. Nothing against OP, but that's generally how these things work out.

[cotiger]

But again, there is no way it will make sense not to file separately if she is only making 40k and working towards PSLF. So it can be arranged to have the government forgive the vast majority of the loans if OP goes the PI route.

You're right, I neglected that consideration. The impact of your tax filing status stuff is something to definitely look into if OP is leaning towards H.

That said, this sounds like exactly the kind of person who will end up gunning for large firm work during OCI. Nothing against OP, but that's generally how these things work out.

Not in law school yet, but I totally see that.

[ColbyBryant]

Well, this thread got depressing quickly. Debt is scary. And you may be right...with close to 30k to pay per year over 10 years, WITH cost of living covered, who can fault a law student from shooting for big law to pay the bills? I am not so foolish as to say I am 100% committed to PI...I have never even taken a law class. There are many ways to advance the common good, and not all of them are low income or non-profit.

It is unfortunate that the school that is most likely to give us students a shot at the PI jobs that we want is also the one that discourages married students from pursuing PI. The average law student graduates at age 27? 28? At that point, normal non-graduate students (ie spouses) can expect to be making enough money that LIPP is negligible for their spouses. Using the LIPP calculator, once average household income creeps above 70k ,LIPP stops looking as helpful.

Anyways, we have a lot to think about. Please let me know if you think of anything else that may help with this decision. Michigan ( Or pushing for a full-ride from NU/Duke) is sounding better and better...

[jingosaur]

My first day in law school, the entire class was gathered in a lecture hall and they asked everyone who wanted to be in public service to raise their hand. At least 100 people did. Do you know how many ended up in a public service job three years later? Three of them. The other 97+ didn't stop wanting to make the world a better place, they just didn't know what it actually MEANS to help poor people for $30,000 a year when they raised their hands three years earlier. They hadn't tested their moral resolve in the crucible of suffocating debt. A $140,000/year job at Skadden Arps is a hard thing to ignore when you're staring down the barrel of a $150,000+ debt burden and $1,700+ monthly loan payments that start real quick after graduation.

[ColbyBryant]

My first day in law school, the entire class was gathered in a lecture hall and they asked everyone who wanted to be in public service to raise their hand. At least 100 people did. Do you know how many ended up in a public service job three years later? Three of them. The other 97+ didn't stop wanting to make the world a better place, they just didn't know what it actually MEANS to help poor people for $30,000 a year when they raised their hands three years earlier. They hadn't tested their moral resolve in the crucible of suffocating debt. A $140,000/year job at Skadden Arps is a hard thing to ignore when you're staring down the barrel of a $150,000+ debt burden and $1,700+ monthly loan payments that start real quick after graduation.

With your goals and life situation, definitely Harvard. It's not even close.

Hello again Jingo...in my case would you now change your vote? Yes, my goal is to clerk and/or PI fellowship to gain experience. We now have a better picture of my financial situation. Thoughts?

[hung jury]

My first day in law school, the entire class was gathered in a lecture hall and they asked everyone who wanted to be in public service to raise their hand. At least 100 people did. Do you know how many ended up in a public service job three years later? Three of them. The other 97+ didn't stop wanting to make the world a better place, they just didn't know what it actually MEANS to help poor people for $30,000 a year when they raised their hands three years earlier. They hadn't tested their moral resolve in the crucible of suffocating debt. A $140,000/year job at Skadden Arps is a hard thing to ignore when you're staring down the barrel of a $150,000+ debt burden and $1,700+ monthly loan payments that start real quick after graduation.

Ergo, go to Harvard so that the debt forces her into a job she didn't want in the first place? Airtight reasoning.

I'd go to Michigan and it isn't close, but a lot of your decision seems to ride on your relationship with your husband and what your financial picture looks like going forward.

[jingosaur]

My first day in law school, the entire class was gathered in a lecture hall and they asked everyone who wanted to be in public service to raise their hand. At least 100 people did. Do you know how many ended up in a public service job three years later? Three of them. The other 97+ didn't stop wanting to make the world a better place, they just didn't know what it actually MEANS to help poor people for $30,000 a year when they raised their hands three years earlier. They hadn't tested their moral resolve in the crucible of suffocating debt. A $140,000/year job at Skadden Arps is a hard thing to ignore when you're staring down the barrel of a $150,000+ debt burden and $1,700+ monthly loan payments that start real quick after graduation.

With your goals and life situation, definitely Harvard. It's not even close.

Hello again Jingo...in my case would you now change your vote? Yes, my goal is to clerk and/or PI fellowship to gain experience. We now have a better picture of my financial situation. Thoughts?

Well it's really about how much value you put into having a better chance of getting the career of your choice. My belief is that you only have one shot at this and you don't want to risk short-changing yourself. But as others have said it's really a matter of personal risk preference. Based on what you mentioned it seemed like it was worth paying the extra money because you have a bit more of a support net through your spouse and potentially parents (do you think you can get financial aid from HLS?) if you endure financial hardship as a result of going into PI after law school. If I were you, I'd try to reach out to Michigan and HLS alumni who pursued PI and ask them about how they handled their respective debt situations and I would make a decision from there. My understanding is that paying back loan debt from HLS is not as horribly difficult as the Michigan proponents ITT are making it out to be.

Personally, I was admitted to HLS this cycle and a lot of the people that I talked to said a lot of things that convinced me that HLS was worth the extra money. My career goals are very different so I don't want to spill everything ITT, but PM me if you want to know more.

[jingosaur]

My first day in law school, the entire class was gathered in a lecture hall and they asked everyone who wanted to be in public service to raise their hand. At least 100 people did. Do you know how many ended up in a public service job three years later? Three of them. The other 97+ didn't stop wanting to make the world a better place, they just didn't know what it actually MEANS to help poor people for $30,000 a year when they raised their hands three years earlier. They hadn't tested their moral resolve in the crucible of suffocating debt. A $140,000/year job at Skadden Arps is a hard thing to ignore when you're staring down the barrel of a $150,000+ debt burden and $1,700+ monthly loan payments that start real quick after graduation.

Ergo, go to Harvard so that the debt forces her into a job she didn't want in the first place? Airtight reasoning.

I'd go to Michigan and it isn't close, but a lot of your decision seems to ride on your relationship with your husband and what your financial picture looks like going forward.

Also keep in mind that Tucker Max went to Duke, which is a peer school of Michigan. I bet that the PI-to-BigLaw conversion rate at HLS and its peer schools is much lower because of all the resources that those schools offer for PI students.

[cotiger]

Also keep in mind that Tucker Max went to Duke, which is a peer school of Michigan. I bet that the PI-to-BigLaw conversion rate at HLS and its peer schools is much lower because of all the resources that those schools offer for PI students.

There's actually data for this

Last year Harvard had 11.4% in Gov/PI.

Duke and Michigan? 9.3% and 16%, respectively.

[hung jury]

My first day in law school, the entire class was gathered in a lecture hall and they asked everyone who wanted to be in public service to raise their hand. At least 100 people did. Do you know how many ended up in a public service job three years later? Three of them. The other 97+ didn't stop wanting to make the world a better place, they just didn't know what it actually MEANS to help poor people for $30,000 a year when they raised their hands three years earlier. They hadn't tested their moral resolve in the crucible of suffocating debt. A $140,000/year job at Skadden Arps is a hard thing to ignore when you're staring down the barrel of a $150,000+ debt burden and $1,700+ monthly loan payments that start real quick after graduation.

Ergo, go to Harvard so that the debt forces her into a job she didn't want in the first place? Airtight reasoning.

I'd go to Michigan and it isn't close, but a lot of your decision seems to ride on your relationship with your husband and what your financial picture looks like going forward.

Also keep in mind that Tucker Max went to Duke, which is a peer school of Michigan. I bet that the PI-to-BigLaw conversion rate at HLS and its peer schools is much lower because of all the resources that those schools offer for PI students.

As a 3L at one of those peer schools, I doubt this is true.

Though my sense from speaking with people at Yale is they might be different.

[NYstate]

Wait. I thought OP was commited to what she wanted to do?
just a fair warning, OP, as you avoided NYC in applying to schools. Most biglaw jobs are in New York. If you won't consider living in NYC you should write off biglaw as a goal. Yes, you can get biglaw in other markets but you have to bid/ interview NYC. If you won't live in NYC, then forget biglaw. I'm not exaggerating here. Biglaw is highly competitive and people strike out by not bidding on NYC firms. All t14 schools do is get you a screening interview with firms, there are no guarantees, even from Harvard, that you can chose your market.

If you want your original goal, go to Harvard and do PI and PSLF. I am willing to bet that Harvard will get you something that will qualify, somewhere in the US that is not NYC. I wouldn't say the same for Michigan.

Edit: no one is taking Tucker Max as a reason to do anything, right?

[ColbyBryant]

Wait. I thought OP was commited to what she wanted to do?
just a fair warning, OP, as you avoided NYC in applying to schools. Most biglaw jobs are in New York. If you won't consider living in NYC you should write off biglaw as a goal. Yes, you can get biglaw in other markets but you have to bid/ interview NYC. If you won't live in NYC, then forget biglaw. I'm not exaggerating here. Biglaw is highly competitive and people strike out by not bidding on NYC firms. All t14 schools do is get you a screening interview with firms, there are no guarantees, even from Harvard, that you can chose your market.

If you want your original goal, go to Harvard and do PI and PSLF. I am willing to bet that Harvard will get you something that will qualify, somewhere in the US that is not NYC. I wouldn't say the same for Michigan.

Edit: no one is taking Tucker Max as a reason to do anything, right?

Very interesting. I had not really considered the NYC big law issue, largely because in researching law schools and options big law has always been a contingency plan. I do have fairly lofty goals, and Harvard clearly has the edge for getting me there. Unfortunately these lofty goals don't pay well. Short of getting a divorce, LIPP won't help much. My concern with PI/PSLF is that I would have to remain in a certain type of job for 10 years, 120 on time payments. Now I am planning my future 13 years ahead of time, yet still have not taken a law class. I have to repeat that as a relatively older applicant, all of my K-JD or K-MD friends changed their goals 5-10 times between orientation and graduation!

Thank you for your input, interesting points there.