Had a Full Ride at a T2 Forum

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

On the MCAT, you can have relatively poor reasoning skills and still get a decent score by being the guy who burns the candle at both ends making sure he memorizes the structure and function of every possible thing. There is less of a "maximum" someone could potentially get on the MCAT because it's easier to learn more facts than gain the ability to reason more efficiently.

You've never taken an MCAT practice test have you? It's not just learning facts. Memorization isnt how you get a good score, that's a baseline that every test-taker has.

Also, dude, there's a reasoning section on the MCAT. These broad strokes that your drawing are silly. You have no clue what you're talking about

At least we all agree that the GMAT is a cake walk

I know there's reasoning on the MCAT. It is a combination of some of the logic-based skills covered by the LSAT and the requisite undergraduate hard science knowledge base. Arguing that the MCAT has more of one thing does not preclude the existence of the other.

I've taken an MCAT practice exam before. I have no training in biology, but the physics is relatively straightforward and probably par for the course of a 100-level UG physics exam.

[CO2016YEAH]

Would it be too late to call up the school and tell them that you'll unconditionally attend if it's still on the table and they allow you to send in the deposit late? The second seat deposit deadline was over two weeks ago and I didn't send in either deposit.

Just now realizing that free is good, I can kick ass there, it's close to home, and I'm better off there than anywhere else. Oh man I screwed up big time.

Hi.

I understand your funds have been reallocated. I'm sorry to hear that. As you know, the advice from all of the TLS geniuses tellin g you to avoid anything other than a t14 with money should be taken with large grains of salt.

As you also likely have figured out, 45% employed in full time long term work at nine months does not equal 45% "becoming lawyers." The overwhelming majority of practicing attorneys did not go to t14 schools and the overwhelming majority of future lawyers will not be going to t14 schools. Yes, the stats tell a story, but the story is really only the first page of the book.

To be sure, I am a fellow 0L, like you, with aspirations to do well in law school and to become an attorney. However, I have spoken with numerous attorneys that graduated anywhere from 35 to a few years ago. The reality is most law grads struggle to fond work out of the gate and many take part time and temporary jobs to build a career. The economy is tough and we all want the best shot at getting a job. Yes, a solid shot at 160k out of the gate from HYS would be ideal; a very small percentage of lawyers have had this outcome, as I'm sure you are aware.

I have considered taking a year off and foregoing a decent scholarship at a t2 as well. Doing this still may prove the more beneficial option if I can land a well paying job between now and August. Having said that, I am also stoked to go this year to the fine school I have already basically committed to attend.

Do what you think is best for yourself, but realize the "retake or don't go" mantra is basically on loop on TLS, and the "common wisdom of TLS" is largely a group-think phenominon perpetuated by short term statistics and an incomplete story advanced in absence of the rest of the story.

Having said all of this, to reaffirm what you evidently have already deduced, a t2 degree with no debt is a far from poor option. Delaying law school by a year (no matter where you choose to go) also presents an opportunity cost. Do your best cost-benefit analysis given the facts you know, with as long a range outcome as you can theoretically and realistically establish, and act accordingly.

Fwiw, I am the only person to date that has asked to be added to Loyola in the Class of 2016 thread, but I'm sure I'm not the only person on TLS that is going. Ultimately, despite tough stats and the saturated market in L.A. and Ca I see no reason to be ashamed of attending what is a long-standing institution with a reputation of producing noteworthy and successful talent.

Let me know what you're thinking of doing and good luck!

Edit: On the phone so forgive the obvious spelling and grammar issues.

[sinfiery]

We use short term statistics because there is very little long term data and it sure as shit can't be relied upon in this environment. It's impossible to asses the opportunity cost of working 45 versus 44 years in your life but it sure as shit is not impossible to understand the short term consequences of getting one more god damn question right on a multiple choice test. Your right, there is a big gap of information that we take a very conservative slant upon when not recommending someone attend a certain school absolutely, but the retake advice is absolutely almost always the right decision based on cold hard DATA.

[Samara]

As you know, the advice from all of the TLS geniuses tellin g you to avoid anything other than a t14 with money should be taken with large grains of salt.

I'm fairly certain no one has told him that. It is certainly not the mainstream TLS opinion. But thanks for the straw man.

As you also likely have figured out, 45% employed in full time long term work at nine months does not equal 45% "becoming lawyers."

Correct. Many of them are employed in non-legal jobs, so even fewer are actually lawyers.

The overwhelming majority of practicing attorneys did not go to t14 schools and the overwhelming majority of future lawyers will not be going to t14 schools. Yes, the stats tell a story, but the story is really only the first page of the book.

Wut. "The overwhelming majority of NFL players didn't go to SEC schools and the overwhelming majority of NFL players will be going to non-SEC schools. Therefore, if you accept a football scholarship at Washington State, you'll probably make the NFL."

[CO2016YEAH]

We use short term statistics because there is very little long term data and it sure as shit can't be relied upon in this environment. It's impossible to asses the opportunity cost of working 45 versus 44 years in your life but it sure as shit is not impossible to understand the short term consequences of getting one more god damn question right on a multiple choice test. Your right, there is a big gap of information that we take a very conservative slant upon when not recommending someone attend a certain school absolutely, but the retake advice is absolutely almost always the right decision based on cold hard DATA.

This was actually a much more well reasoned response than I anticipated. You bring up some good points.

There is also merit to the data that most retakers don't score markedly higher on a retake.

The reality is second time test takers, on the whole, only score higher than first time takers by a very slight (almost negligible) margin.

We have the infamous stories on TLS on successful retakers that have bumped many points on a second take despite solid prep on a first attempt and have had a significantly advantageous outcome. We have few stories that garner any attention of the majority of retakers that score within the margin of error on their retake. I disagree with your last point.

[CO2016YEAH]

We use short term statistics because there is very little long term data and it sure as shit can't be relied upon in this environment. It's impossible to asses the opportunity cost of working 45 versus 44 years in your life but it sure as shit is not impossible to understand the short term consequences of getting one more god damn question right on a multiple choice test. Your right, there is a big gap of information that we take a very conservative slant upon when not recommending someone attend a certain school absolutely, but the retake advice is absolutely almost always the right decision based on cold hard DATA.

This was actually a much more well reasoned response than I anticipated. You bring up some good points.

There is also merit to the data that most retakers don't score markedly higher on a retake.

The reality is second time test takers, on the whole, only score higher than first time takers by a very slight (almost negligible) margin.

We have the infamous stories on TLS on successful retakers that have bumped many points on a second take despite solid prep on a first attempt and have had a significantly advantageous outcome. We have few stories that garner any attention of the majority of retakers that score within the margin of error on their retake. I disagree with your last point.

[sublime]

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[sublime]

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[CO2016YEAH]

We use short term statistics because there is very little long term data and it sure as shit can't be relied upon in this environment. It's impossible to asses the opportunity cost of working 45 versus 44 years in your life but it sure as shit is not impossible to understand the short term consequences of getting one more god damn question right on a multiple choice test. Your right, there is a big gap of information that we take a very conservative slant upon when not recommending someone attend a certain school absolutely, but the retake advice is absolutely almost always the right decision based on cold hard DATA.

This was actually a much more well reasoned response than I anticipated. You bring up some good points.

There is also merit to the data that most retakers don't score markedly higher on a retake.

The reality is second time test takers, on the whole, only score higher than first time takers by a very slight (almost negligible) margin.

We have the infamous stories on TLS on successful retakers that have bumped many points on a second take despite solid prep on a first attempt and have had a significantly advantageous outcome. We have few stories that garner any attention of the majority of retakers that score within the margin of error on their retake. I disagree with your last point.

2.8 points is certainly a significant increase. And that is just an average.

2.8 points is less than the margin of error.

Mean score for first time test takers is 151.1; for second time test takers it is 151.2.

Individual circumstances may vary; I conclusively need more than 3 points to make a retake and delaying matriculation by a year worth while.

[sublime]

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[Dolphine]

To be fair I know someone with the same Gpa and 2 points lower on the LSAT who's waitlisted at the school I got a full ride at. You really don't get how important it is to be "above median".

[CO2016YEAH]

Would it be too late to call up the school and tell them that you'll unconditionally attend if it's still on the table and they allow you to send in the deposit late? The second seat deposit deadline was over two weeks ago and I didn't send in either deposit.

Just now realizing that free is good, I can kick ass there, it's close to home, and I'm better off there than anywhere else. Oh man I screwed up big time.

Hi.

I understand your funds have been reallocated. I'm sorry to hear that. As you know, the advice from all of the TLS geniuses tellin g you to avoid anything other than a t14 with money should be taken with large grains of salt.

As you also likely have figured out, 45% employed in full time long term work at nine months does not equal 45% "becoming lawyers." The overwhelming majority of practicing attorneys did not go to t14 schools and the overwhelming majority of future lawyers will not be going to t14 schools. Yes, the stats tell a story, but the story is really only the first page of the book.

To be sure, I am a fellow 0L, like you, with aspirations to do well in law school and to become an attorney. However, I have spoken with numerous attorneys that graduated anywhere from 35 to a few years ago. The reality is most law grads struggle to fond work out of the gate and many take part time and temporary jobs to build a career. The economy is tough and we all want the best shot at getting a job. Yes, a solid shot at 160k out of the gate from HYS would be ideal; a very small percentage of lawyers have had this outcome, as I'm sure you are aware.

I have considered taking a year off and foregoing a decent scholarship at a t2 as well. Doing this still may prove the more beneficial option if I can land a well paying job between now and August. Having said that, I am also stoked to go this year to the fine school I have already basically committed to attend.

Do what you think is best for yourself, but realize the "retake or don't go" mantra is basically on loop on TLS, and the "common wisdom of TLS" is largely a group-think phenominon perpetuated by short term statistics and an incomplete story advanced in absence of the rest of the story.

Having said all of this, to reaffirm what you evidently have already deduced, a t2 degree with no debt is a far from poor option. Delaying law school by a year (no matter where you choose to go) also presents an opportunity cost. Do your best cost-benefit analysis given the facts you know, with as long a range outcome as you can theoretically and realistically establish, and act accordingly.

Fwiw, I am the only person to date that has asked to be added to Loyola in the Class of 2016 thread, but I'm sure I'm not the only person on TLS that is going. Ultimately, despite tough stats and the saturated market in L.A. and Ca I see no reason to be ashamed of attending what is a long-standing institution with a reputation of producing noteworthy and successful talent.

Let me know what you're thinking of doing and good luck!

Edit: On the phone so forgive the obvious spelling and grammar issues.

In almost every situation going to Seton Hall is a bad decision and going to Loyola is a bad decision. Saying that is not nearly the same as saying "t-14 or don't go." I will not be attending a T-14, however, it makes sense in my situation and the groupthink, as you call it, tend to agree. There is a lot of good advice on TLS and some shitty advice. But just because no one will tell you what you want to hear, that going to Loyola is a good idea, does not mean that everyone is "T-14 or bust." In fact, it is slightly humorous that you rationalized it in that way.

Well, I'm glad I could make you chuckle. You've delivered a laugh or two yourself.

"What I want to hear" is reason and healthy debate, and not unabashed optimism or pessimism. Having said that, the evaluation and skepticism I've encountered in TLS, for the most part, has been worth my investment in posting here. I still disagree that Seton or Loyola are conclusively "bad decisions," for the reasons listed in my first post ITT.

And as far as my summation of the common TLS wisdom, if you look as far as the "official class of 2016" thread you will see that it is much more top-heavy than logic would dictate. My summation may be slightly exaggerated for illustrative purposes, but it isn't far off the mark.

[Dolphine]

The real thing is, I, and I'm sure many others here, can't morally tell ANYONE to get into 100k+ plus debt at an "ok" school, when a MUCH better option exists. That's a decision you have to make for yourself.

[DaRascal]

.

[rickgrimes69]

Not to hijack the hijack... but going to Loyola for anything but free is a terrible decision. Last year, only ~41% were employed as lawyers 9 months after graduation, and only 27% were employed in firms of 11+ attorneys (the absolute baseline of what can reasonably be considered a "positive" outcome). Your chances of un/underemployment (49%) are greater than your chances of finding any FT LT legal work at all, and roughly double your chances of finding anything desirable. Those placement statistics are indefensibly bad, and I would argue the opportunity cost of three years is the absolute maximum that anybody should spend on that school.

Also, the LSAT is extremely learnable. The fact that the average increase is 2.8 points is pretty telling, when you consider the minimal effort the majority of test takers put into it. Even if we assume most people actually study and try to improve, an average increase of 2.8 points is huge, and enough to get you tens of thousands of dollars in scholarship money. It's absolutely worth the time to retake in 99% of situations - I mean, it's free money on the table.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Last year, only 41% were employed as lawyers 9 months after graduation, and only 27% were employed in firms of 11+ attorneys (the absolute baseline of what can reasonably be considered a "positive" outcome).

This is just dumb. Life is way too complex for so many assumptions, bro.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Also, the standard deviation on that average is a little over four points. Given that lower scores don't really hurt you, retaking is generally, on net, a beneficial decision.

Consider an applicant scoring 165. The average increase is about two points, with a standard deviation of four. There's around a one-in-three chance the applicant does worse or the same, in which case nothing is lost except time. But the chances for improvement are awesome: Even presuming the distribution is skewed as it becomes just generally difficult in the higher scores (and is therefore slightly non-normal), you're looking at nearly half the applicants improving by two points or more. You can play around with what two points means for your chances or your scholarship offers at a given school, but any data will tell you it makes a gigantic difference. Someone in the range of 15-20% will score five points or better. A 3.9/165 is probably going to MVP at sticker, a 3.9/170 is either going to Harvard or Chicago with $$. I have heard of people improving their scores up to twelve points. Again, nothing to lose except your time, which is tiddlywinks compared to the six figures (literally) you could be earning for doing ten hours of prep a week for three months.

[rickgrimes69]

Last year, only 41% were employed as lawyers 9 months after graduation, and only 27% were employed in firms of 11+ attorneys (the absolute baseline of what can reasonably be considered a "positive" outcome).

This is just dumb. Life is way too complex for so many assumptions, bro.

If you're debt free, go ahead and hang a shingle (or join your fellow unemployed friends and hang one together). It'll still probably end badly, but at least you aren't in the red before you begin. But how are a bunch of kids already six figures deep supposed to get the startup and operating capital to run a new firm? Maybe some of those ~13% are moving to established small firms, but in general, firms that small don't hire very many people fresh out of school.

And hey, even if you assume all of those 2-10 attorney spots are legitimate firms with solid practices, the school still only has a 41% employment rate. That's pretty indefensible.

[ManoftheHour]

Would it be too late to call up the school and tell them that you'll unconditionally attend if it's still on the table and they allow you to send in the deposit late? The second seat deposit deadline was over two weeks ago and I didn't send in either deposit.

Just now realizing that free is good, I can kick ass there, it's close to home, and I'm better off there than anywhere else. Oh man I screwed up big time.

Hi.

I understand your funds have been reallocated. I'm sorry to hear that. As you know, the advice from all of the TLS geniuses tellin g you to avoid anything other than a t14 with money should be taken with large grains of salt.

As you also likely have figured out, 45% employed in full time long term work at nine months does not equal 45% "becoming lawyers." The overwhelming majority of practicing attorneys did not go to t14 schools and the overwhelming majority of future lawyers will not be going to t14 schools. Yes, the stats tell a story, but the story is really only the first page of the book.

To be sure, I am a fellow 0L, like you, with aspirations to do well in law school and to become an attorney. However, I have spoken with numerous attorneys that graduated anywhere from 35 to a few years ago. The reality is most law grads struggle to fond work out of the gate and many take part time and temporary jobs to build a career. The economy is tough and we all want the best shot at getting a job. Yes, a solid shot at 160k out of the gate from HYS would be ideal; a very small percentage of lawyers have had this outcome, as I'm sure you are aware.

I have considered taking a year off and foregoing a decent scholarship at a t2 as well. Doing this still may prove the more beneficial option if I can land a well paying job between now and August. Having said that, I am also stoked to go this year to the fine school I have already basically committed to attend.

Do what you think is best for yourself, but realize the "retake or don't go" mantra is basically on loop on TLS, and the "common wisdom of TLS" is largely a group-think phenominon perpetuated by short term statistics and an incomplete story advanced in absence of the rest of the story.

Having said all of this, to reaffirm what you evidently have already deduced, a t2 degree with no debt is a far from poor option. Delaying law school by a year (no matter where you choose to go) also presents an opportunity cost. Do your best cost-benefit analysis given the facts you know, with as long a range outcome as you can theoretically and realistically establish, and act accordingly.

Fwiw, I am the only person to date that has asked to be added to Loyola in the Class of 2016 thread, but I'm sure I'm not the only person on TLS that is going. Ultimately, despite tough stats and the saturated market in L.A. and Ca I see no reason to be ashamed of attending what is a long-standing institution with a reputation of producing noteworthy and successful talent.

Let me know what you're thinking of doing and good luck!

Edit: On the phone so forgive the obvious spelling and grammar issues.

While I don't completely agree with everything that you posted, I'll wear that badge with you proudly if I attend, brother.

[ManoftheHour]

2.8 points is certainly a significant increase. And that is just an average.

How big of a difference is 3.60/165 from 3.60/162???

[CO2016YEAH]

Cheers, bro.

Would it be too late to call up the school and tell them that you'll unconditionally attend if it's still on the table and they allow you to send in the deposit late? The second seat deposit deadline was over two weeks ago and I didn't send in either deposit.

Just now realizing that free is good, I can kick ass there, it's close to home, and I'm better off there than anywhere else. Oh man I screwed up big time.

Hi.

I understand your funds have been reallocated. I'm sorry to hear that. As you know, the advice from all of the TLS geniuses tellin g you to avoid anything other than a t14 with money should be taken with large grains of salt.

As you also likely have figured out, 45% employed in full time long term work at nine months does not equal 45% "becoming lawyers." The overwhelming majority of practicing attorneys did not go to t14 schools and the overwhelming majority of future lawyers will not be going to t14 schools. Yes, the stats tell a story, but the story is really only the first page of the book.

To be sure, I am a fellow 0L, like you, with aspirations to do well in law school and to become an attorney. However, I have spoken with numerous attorneys that graduated anywhere from 35 to a few years ago. The reality is most law grads struggle to fond work out of the gate and many take part time and temporary jobs to build a career. The economy is tough and we all want the best shot at getting a job. Yes, a solid shot at 160k out of the gate from HYS would be ideal; a very small percentage of lawyers have had this outcome, as I'm sure you are aware.

I have considered taking a year off and foregoing a decent scholarship at a t2 as well. Doing this still may prove the more beneficial option if I can land a well paying job between now and August. Having said that, I am also stoked to go this year to the fine school I have already basically committed to attend.

Do what you think is best for yourself, but realize the "retake or don't go" mantra is basically on loop on TLS, and the "common wisdom of TLS" is largely a group-think phenominon perpetuated by short term statistics and an incomplete story advanced in absence of the rest of the story.

Having said all of this, to reaffirm what you evidently have already deduced, a t2 degree with no debt is a far from poor option. Delaying law school by a year (no matter where you choose to go) also presents an opportunity cost. Do your best cost-benefit analysis given the facts you know, with as long a range outcome as you can theoretically and realistically establish, and act accordingly.

Fwiw, I am the only person to date that has asked to be added to Loyola in the Class of 2016 thread, but I'm sure I'm not the only person on TLS that is going. Ultimately, despite tough stats and the saturated market in L.A. and Ca I see no reason to be ashamed of attending what is a long-standing institution with a reputation of producing noteworthy and successful talent.

Let me know what you're thinking of doing and good luck!

Edit: On the phone so forgive the obvious spelling and grammar issues.

While I don't completely agree with everything that you posted, I'll wear that badge with you proudly if I attend, brother.

[smaug_]

a bunch of bad words

Look duders, the vast majority of people at T2 schools are going to regret their decision to go to law school. Hell, I'd wager that a majority of people at T1 schools are going to regret their decision to go to law school. (I even think you can probably extend this to almost any law school, but I don't want to be that pessimistic.) The "T-14 or bust" mentality, to the extent that it is a real thing, exists because law school is such a laughably bad decision. Even students at very good schools (everything that isn't HYS) should be prepared to drop out if they can't make it.

There are obviously exceptions to this, but so very few people fall into those exceptions that they're barely worth noting. Moreover, instead of explaining "I want to do stuff in a small market and have significant connections to rely on if I strike out" most people who receive retake/don't go advice instead lash out and call people prestige whores.

I didn't strive to go to a decent school and get good grades for prestige. I didn't do it because I would be ashamed of attending a lower ranked school. I didn't do it for MODELS & BOTTLES. I did it because you go to law school to get a job and the BIGLAW OR BUST train is by far the easiest way to get a job out of law school.

Delaying school might present some opportunity cost, but it is insignificant compared to the opportunity costs of going to a T2 school. It just isn't worth it for the vast majority of students.

I normally don't rail on bad 0L opinions in threads like these, but now that many of my friends are graduating from T2 schools with uncertain futures, it's hard for me to watch someone commit career suicide while inviting someone else to do the same. If you want to drown, go ahead, just don't be a siren song for others who might make the same mistake.

[stuckinthemiddle]

Back to the point of this thread:

DaRascal, you need to grow up, man up, and:



Take a stand, COMMIT to it wholeheartedly, and then make it work. JFC how are you going to survive when you actually need to litigate?

[sublime]

..

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

2.8 points is certainly a significant increase. And that is just an average.

How big of a difference is 3.60/165 from 3.60/162???

I mean, the "T14 or bust" notion might lead you to discount the difference between Iowa and WUSTL as meaningless. But 3.6/165 that goes to 168 is improving his or her prospects from WUSTL to Cornell with an outside chance at Michigan. Significant difference.