Top School or graduate debt free? Forum

[Sheffield]

Since you are there, talk with Cornell law students. I bet you will hear that it is common for Cornell grads to go from LS right into +$100K jobs with firms.

[bjsesq]

Since you are there, talk with Cornell law students. I bet you will hear that it is common for Cornell grads to go from LS right into +$100K jobs with firms.

Talk to a certain Cornell student and I bet he gets laid. Also herpes, BUT SOME SEX!

[Sheffield]

I'm with Romo. Cornell is the right option if OP can still do it, but a $3000 monthly payment on loans is almost double my current post-tax income, and that is a terrifying thought. Of the choices listed, I would personally take GW, but Cornell is TCR.

On $250K, that $3K monthly loan payment is accurate (for 10 years). So, if OP selects CLS, better hope for a $160K gig... leaves around $5,700 take home to live on (if gig is in tax crazy NYC). About the same take home if you earned $85K (not in NYC) with a $40K debt.

[nickb285]

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[Rahviveh]

On $250K, that $3K monthly loan payment is accurate (for 10 years). So, if OP selects CLS, better hope for a $160K gig... leaves around $5,700 take home to live on (if gig is in tax crazy NYC). About the same take home if you earned $85K (not in NYC) with a $40K debt.

Every once in a while I think "You know, maybe I should retake and shoot for T14 instead of going to a regional T50 with a scholarship." Then I read things like that. I'd be pretty happy to MAKE $3000/month after taxes; I can't imagine PAYING that much.

Well to be fair, you'd still be making $3-4k a month after taxes and a $3k a month loan payment on biglaw salary (though not necessarily that much post-biglaw). Then again a 10-year plan probably isn't a good idea either.

[elm84dr]

For the record I chose BU with a FULL RIDE & Stipend over Cornell with $100K (meaning I still have about $110k in debt + Ithaca). I could not be happier. I have a BigLaw job, and I will not be paying anything back. I did want to be in Boston, and I will concede that I probably would have gotten a "higher ranked" firm from Cornell, even in Boston. It worked out for me. As for you, spend less time worrying about people here---they will always tell you to go to the higher ranked school or retake---even if the higher rank enslaves you to a firm for at least 2 years to live like a student and pay 1-2K in loans a month.

[IAFG]

spend less time worrying about people here---they will always tell you to go to the higher ranked school or retake---even if the higher rank enslaves you to a firm for at least 2 years to live like a student and pay 1-2K in loans a month.

And yet the consensus is that OP should not go to higher ranked CLS over Cornell. DING friend.

[nickb285]

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[romothesavior]

For the record I chose BU with a FULL RIDE & Stipend over Cornell with $100K (meaning I still have about $110k in debt + Ithaca). I could not be happier. I have a BigLaw job, and I will not be paying anything back. I did want to be in Boston, and I will concede that I probably would have gotten a "higher ranked" firm from Cornell, even in Boston. It worked out for me. As for you, spend less time worrying about people here---they will always tell you to go to the higher ranked school or retake---even if the higher rank enslaves you to a firm for at least 2 years to live like a student and pay 1-2K in loans a month.

Have you read the thread duder, or are you just going to make general unsupported statements about the TLS community without even reading the conversation preceding your post? Multiple people, myself included, have said that they'd take GW for free over Columbia at sticker, and even most people who would do the opposite have at least conceded that it probably makes some sense. And virtually everyone agrees that Cornell for free is better than CLS at sticker.

[bjsesq]

For the record I chose BU with a FULL RIDE & Stipend over Cornell with $100K (meaning I still have about $110k in debt + Ithaca). I could not be happier. I have a BigLaw job, and I will not be paying anything back. I did want to be in Boston, and I will concede that I probably would have gotten a "higher ranked" firm from Cornell, even in Boston. It worked out for me. As for you, spend less time worrying about people here---they will always tell you to go to the higher ranked school or retake---even if the higher rank enslaves you to a firm for at least 2 years to live like a student and pay 1-2K in loans a month.

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[whereskyle]

I'm PI and Gov't minded, so I'm interested in going to GW for free. Negotiate with GW by telling them that you want to be there, but it just doesn't make sense for you to head there, when Cornell is giving you the same amount of money. Say that a small living stipend will seal the deal. (idk if this will work, but it's an idea.) You will also need to have an existing offer from cornell for this to be viable.

[Rahviveh]

Well to be fair, you'd still be making $3-4k a month after taxes and a $3k a month loan payment on biglaw salary (though not necessarily that much post-biglaw). Then again a 10-year plan probably isn't a good idea either.

True. It's nice not to have to worry about getting/being able to toleratebiglaw though. Granted, I'll never be rich, but right now that seems secondary. Especially considering that given my current salary,"basking in success" = "getting an apartment with a dishwasher and a microwave that has buttons."

Know exactly how you feel

[BigZuck]

For the record I chose BU with a FULL RIDE & Stipend over Cornell with $100K (meaning I still have about $110k in debt + Ithaca). I could not be happier. I have a BigLaw job, and I will not be paying anything back. I did want to be in Boston, and I will concede that I probably would have gotten a "higher ranked" firm from Cornell, even in Boston. It worked out for me. As for you, spend less time worrying about people here---they will always tell you to go to the higher ranked school or retake---even if the higher rank enslaves you to a firm for at least 2 years to live like a student and pay 1-2K in loans a month.

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Loled. Well played.

[TrialLawyer16]

Cornell. To put it in perspective, you are wagering a 50 year career for 3 years now cause you dont 'like' Ithaca . Youth is blinding you with instant gratification

That's not what I said. I like Ithaca a lot. However, I examined both schools and came to the conclusion that being in DC provides a wider range of opportunities to do externships/clinics than being in Ithaca. And it's not like 14 vs 21 in the rankings is a huge difference. Frankly, I didn't understand why Cornell Law was ranked higher than GW.

Not to pile on.. well I guess that's not true.. but I just really want you to understand that the bolded statement is insanity.

Please spend some more time on these boards and realize that there is pretty much nothing gained from picking GW over Cornell in this particular situation.

ETA: If you're trolling us, then this is a job well done.

[jbagelboy]

Cornell. To put it in perspective, you are wagering a 50 year career for 3 years now cause you dont 'like' Ithaca . Youth is blinding you with instant gratification

That's not what I said. I like Ithaca a lot. However, I examined both schools and came to the conclusion that being in DC provides a wider range of opportunities to do externships/clinics than being in Ithaca. And it's not like 14 vs 21 in the rankings is a huge difference. Frankly, I didn't understand why Cornell Law was ranked higher than GW.

Not to pile on.. well I guess that's not true.. but I just really want you to understand that the bolded statement is insanity.

Actually, I agree with the bolded, technically. The difference between GW and GULC is "not huge"; I would still take GULC first, but not if it cost a lot more.

What is wrong with that statement is that Cornell is not "14". In terms of legal employment, it's on literally the same level with Duke, NU, Mich, so its more like ~10. I don't know the exactly USNWR numbers, but these schools are probably within 1 or 2 points of each other, which is a negligible margin informed only by how actively a few ailing alumni judges from these schools participate in the surveys that year

[cwid1391]

ETA: If you're trolling us, then this is a job well done.

+1. If so, this is arguably the most successful trolls in TLS history. Very sly.

[TrialLawyer16]

Cornell. To put it in perspective, you are wagering a 50 year career for 3 years now cause you dont 'like' Ithaca . Youth is blinding you with instant gratification

That's not what I said. I like Ithaca a lot. However, I examined both schools and came to the conclusion that being in DC provides a wider range of opportunities to do externships/clinics than being in Ithaca. And it's not like 14 vs 21 in the rankings is a huge difference. Frankly, I didn't understand why Cornell Law was ranked higher than GW.

Not to pile on.. well I guess that's not true.. but I just really want you to understand that the bolded statement is insanity.

Actually, I agree with the bolded, technically. The difference between GW and GULC is "not huge"; I would still take GULC first, but not if it cost a lot more.

What is wrong with that statement is that Cornell is not "14". In terms of legal employment, it's on literally the same level with Duke, NU, Mich, so its more like ~10. I don't know the exactly USNWR numbers, but these schools are probably within 1 or 2 points of each other, which is a negligible margin informed only by how actively a few ailing alumni judges from these schools participate in the surveys that year

I grew up, live, and aspire to work in the DC area. The difference between Georgetown and GW is still huge in every facet I can think of (except IP maybe). And especially in this case, it would make even less sense for the OP to turn down GULC for GW than turning down Cornell for GW if he had a full ride at both, based on OP's desire to be in DC - so there's that as well.

{ETA: I realized I didn't really add any facts, so take 2011's employment data for example (since I don't have GW's 2012 data handy):

GULC 2011 biglaw/fed clerkship placement - 40%
GW 2011 biglaw/fed clerkship placement - 25%

I think GULC's most recent class was around 570 students. So to somewhat even the playing field, imagine that both of these schools had the same amount of students:

GULC - 228 students would have gotten biglaw/fed clerkship and 342 would have struck out
GW - 142 students would have gotten biglaw/fed clerkship and 428 would have struck out

That's a difference of 86 students all things equal, which I believe is huge. Especially if you consider that schools like Cornell only have like 170 students per class anyway. With schools as big as GW & GULC those percentages amount to a bunch of students.}

But this is kind of silly anyway because we both knew what he was trying to say.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

For the record I chose BU with a FULL RIDE & Stipend over Cornell with $100K (meaning I still have about $110k in debt + Ithaca). I could not be happier. I have a BigLaw job, and I will not be paying anything back. I did want to be in Boston, and I will concede that I probably would have gotten a "higher ranked" firm from Cornell, even in Boston. It worked out for me. As for you, spend less time worrying about people here---they will always tell you to go to the higher ranked school or retake---even if the higher rank enslaves you to a firm for at least 2 years to live like a student and pay 1-2K in loans a month.

I am a 1L. Took a similar deal (full ride + stipend over 65k at Duke/Northwestern, and got into UVA but hadn't heard back yet about money). I think this is the way to go. I've got a 1L big law SA lined up. I have several professors that i have great relationships with, who are willing to call any firm or judge on my behalf. For what it's worth, I'm not from a poor background at all, but I just couldn't imagine spending 150k-200k in this employment environment. The school I'm attending is in a city where my wife works, and we're living off of her income (so $0 COA). I also think that if I took T14 who knows maybe I'd be at a Vault 10 firm. But I'm loving my choice.

[cinephile]

For the record I chose BU with a FULL RIDE & Stipend over Cornell with $100K (meaning I still have about $110k in debt + Ithaca). I could not be happier. I have a BigLaw job, and I will not be paying anything back. I did want to be in Boston, and I will concede that I probably would have gotten a "higher ranked" firm from Cornell, even in Boston. It worked out for me. As for you, spend less time worrying about people here---they will always tell you to go to the higher ranked school or retake---even if the higher rank enslaves you to a firm for at least 2 years to live like a student and pay 1-2K in loans a month.

I am a 1L. Took a similar deal (full ride + stipend over 65k at Duke/Northwestern, and got into UVA but hadn't heard back yet about money). I think this is the way to go. I've got a 1L big law SA lined up. I have several professors that i have great relationships with, who are willing to call any firm or judge on my behalf. For what it's worth, I'm not from a poor background at all, but I just couldn't imagine spending 150k-200k in this employment environment. The school I'm attending is in a city where my wife works, and we're living off of her income (so $0 COA). I also think that if I took T14 who knows maybe I'd be at a Vault 10 firm. But I'm loving my choice.

Yeah, but it might not have turned out this way. I have a friend at BU who's here on near a full ride (40k/yr) and she got into UPenn (not sure about $), but chose the debt free option because she thought it would be better. She struck out at OCI (and she's a 2L), and right now she's regretting her decision. Of course she might've struck out at UPenn too, and then she'd have debt plus regrets, whereas at BU she only has regrets. So you really never know.

[romothesavior]

Agree with cinephile. Again, I'm a proponent of the T20 for free > T14 at sticker option, and it sounds like Hutz made the right choice. But I've seen Hutz push the "I did it and so can you" story a few times, and elm just did it too, and I think it's important to keep it in perspective and remember that there are many, many people who make this same move and things don't work. Thankfully, the worst case scenario isn't so bad because they have no debt, but it would be frustrating to go through OCI, 2L year, 3L year, possibly graduate unemployed and then have to take a mediocre job, when you could have gone to a school that places the huge majority of their students into really great jobs (whether that be clerkships, big firms, great government jobs, PI jobs, etc.)

I think there are very strong points on both side of this debate, and like a good lawyer, you shouldn't ignore the strengths of the other side of this argument.

[Clearly]

Agree with cinephile. Again, I'm a proponent of the T20 for free > T14 at sticker option, and it sounds like Hutz made the right choice. But I've seen Hutz push the "I did it and so can you" story a few times, and elm just did it too, and I think it's important to keep it in perspective and remember that there are many, many people who make this same move and things don't work. Thankfully, the worst case scenario isn't so bad because they have no debt, but it would be frustrating to go through OCI, 2L year, 3L year, possibly graduate unemployed and then have to take a mediocre job, when you could have gone to a school that places the huge majority of their students into really great jobs (whether that be clerkships, big firms, great government jobs, PI jobs, etc.)

I think there are very strong points on both side of this debate, and like a good lawyer, you shouldn't ignore the strengths of the other side of this argument.

There are arguments on both sides for top school vs low debt for sure, but in the case OP had low debt AND top school. It would be a damn shame in his case to take either option he left himself over Cornell... Especially because he thinks GW will provide MORE opportunities

[TheBiggerMediocre]

Columbia. Since you can easily get any job afterwards

[jbagelboy]

Columbia. Since you can easily get any job afterwards

Geez. I'm going to CLS next year, and I wish this were true...

[BigZuck]

Did the OP flee the thread because he was outed as a troll or because he did not want to face the wrath of the TLS lynch mob for passing on Cornell?

[HBBJohnStamos]

Since you are there, talk with Cornell law students. I bet you will hear that it is common for Cornell grads to go from LS right into +$100K jobs with firms.

Talk to a certain Cornell student and I bet he gets laid. Also herpes, BUT SOME SEX!

This was great, TYFT.