Class of 2012 Employment Data Forum

[Redamon1]

why do we completely discount PI/Government jobs in these numbers? There needs to be a way to quantify DOJ v bad government job

You just answered your own question. Because we can't distinguish between good and bad PI.

Why not apply a discount rate to the PI number? After all, many people consciously choose the PI route. If you consider LRAP at good schools, PI is often not a bad outcome. I understand that on the scale of all law schools it's hard to compare, because the quality of LRAP and the quality of PI gigs varies from school to school. But the T14s are perhaps similar enough that some sort of standard measure could be applied? Completely discounting PI just seems a bit extreme, especially considering that it's a whole segment of the legal profession. Consider also that your awesome bar charts now allow people to appreciate the spectrum in the types of jobs obtained, rather than just rely on a single "employment" rate or number. So people would still be able to factor in or out whatever categories they were most interested in, or trusted more.

[Dmini7]

Georgetown is up: http://law.georgetown.edu/admissions-fi ... -15-13.pdf

100+ firms: 196/626 = 39.1%
AIII clerkships: 23/626 = 3.7%

42.1% total and 83 school-funded positions (13.3%)

Your percentage for 100+ is right, but the total is wrong. Should be 245 (not really a big deal, but the incorrect number was bothering me).

[HankBashir]

Georgetown is up: http://law.georgetown.edu/admissions-fi ... -15-13.pdf

100+ firms: 196/626 = 39.1%
AIII clerkships: 23/626 = 3.7%

42.1% total and 83 school-funded positions (13.3%)

It should read 245/626 for 101+ firms and 42.8% for the total.

ETA: Scooped

I find it interesting that while the total number of school-funded of jobs between the c/o of 2011 and 2012 haven't changed much (84 v. 83) the number in FT/LT jobs has increased from 19 to 61. Any explanation for this beyond GULC increased the length of its school funded jobs to make its employment stats look better?

Either way, this makes me feel slightly better about the possibility of attending GULC this fall.

[BigZuck]

As schools begin to update their sites with c/o 2012 employment stats, I figured we'd start one thread to compile the key information. When more schools publish their numbers, let me know and I'll update the OP.

School: Employed in firms of 100+ attorneys + federal clerkships = Total

Penn: 66.7 + 10.4 = 77.1
Stanford: 47 + 28.2 = 75.2
Harvard: 53.6 + 17.8 = 71.4
NYU: 59.5 + 5.6 = 65.1
Duke: 51.1 + 12.9 = 64
UVA: 47.8 + 14.3 = 62.1
Mich: 43.3 + 8.5 = 51.8
UCI: 23.2 + 28.6 = 51.8*
GULC: 39.1 + 3.7 = 42.8
UCLA: 34.2 + 4.8 = 39
USC: 30.8 + 6.7 = 37.5
Texas: 26.9 + 8.3 = 35.2
Notre Dame: 24 + 8.7 = 32.7
WUSTL: 23 + 3.3 = 26.3
Illinois: 22.1 + 2.3 = 24.4
UNC: 16.4 + 5.1 = 21.5
Wake: 14.7 + 5.8 = 20.5
W & M: 12.7 + 5.9 = 18.6
Alabama: 8.1 + 9.3 = 17.4
SMU: 14.3 + 3 = 17.3

*: Don't kid yourself

Well, I know not every school has reported in yet but I think it's obivous what the new ordering of the T14 should be.

Instead of
HYS
CCN
MVPB
DCNG

It is now obviously
HYS
CCP
N(YU)DN(U)
VB
MCU(CI)

Glad we can finally put that baby to rest.

[longlivetheking]

As schools begin to update their sites with c/o 2012 employment stats, I figured we'd start one thread to compile the key information. When more schools publish their numbers, let me know and I'll update the OP.

School: Employed in firms of 100+ attorneys + federal clerkships = Total

Penn: 66.7 + 10.4 = 77.1
Stanford: 47 + 28.2 = 75.2
Harvard: 53.6 + 17.8 = 71.4
NYU: 59.5 + 5.6 = 65.1
Duke: 51.1 + 12.9 = 64
UVA: 47.8 + 14.3 = 62.1
Mich: 43.3 + 8.5 = 51.8
UCI: 23.2 + 28.6 = 51.8*
GULC: 39.1 + 3.7 = 42.8
UCLA: 34.2 + 4.8 = 39
USC: 30.8 + 6.7 = 37.5
Texas: 26.9 + 8.3 = 35.2
Notre Dame: 24 + 8.7 = 32.7
WUSTL: 23 + 3.3 = 26.3
Illinois: 22.1 + 2.3 = 24.4
UNC: 16.4 + 5.1 = 21.5
Wake: 14.7 + 5.8 = 20.5
W & M: 12.7 + 5.9 = 18.6
Alabama: 8.1 + 9.3 = 17.4
SMU: 14.3 + 3 = 17.3

*: Don't kid yourself

Well, I know not every school has reported in yet but I think it's obivous what the new ordering of the T14 should be.

Instead of
HYS
CCN
MVPB
DCNG

It is now obviously
HYS
CCP
N(YU)DN(U)
VB
MCU(CI)

Glad we can finally put that baby to rest.

seriously? just because nyu's clerkship placement tanked slightly for 1 yr its down one grade? not to mention some significant self selection to PI? this is just blatant trolling.

[Tiago Splitter]

seriously? just because nyu's clerkship placement tanked slightly for 1 yr its down one grade? not to mention some significant self selection to PI? this is just blatant trolling.

JFC calm down dude. It was clearly a joke.

[Bronck]

seriously? just because nyu's clerkship placement tanked slightly for 1 yr its down one grade? not to mention some significant self selection to PI? this is just blatant trolling.

JFC calm down dude. It was clearly a joke.

No way bro. NYU is clearly a TTT. If it wasn't for their location, they'd be placing like a non-T14.

[longlivetheking]

seriously? just because nyu's clerkship placement tanked slightly for 1 yr its down one grade? not to mention some significant self selection to PI? this is just blatant trolling.

JFC calm down dude. It was clearly a joke.

No way bro. NYU is clearly a TTT. If it wasn't for their location, they'd be placing like a non-T14.

good old college confidential argument. haven't seen that one in awhile.

[Dmini7]

As schools begin to update their sites with c/o 2012 employment stats, I figured we'd start one thread to compile the key information. When more schools publish their numbers, let me know and I'll update the OP.

School: Employed in firms of 100+ attorneys + federal clerkships = Total

Penn: 66.7 + 10.4 = 77.1
Stanford: 47 + 28.2 = 75.2
Harvard: 53.6 + 17.8 = 71.4
NYU: 59.5 + 5.6 = 65.1
Duke: 51.1 + 12.9 = 64
UVA: 47.8 + 14.3 = 62.1
Mich: 43.3 + 8.5 = 51.8
UCI: 23.2 + 28.6 = 51.8*
GULC: 39.1 + 3.7 = 42.8
UCLA: 34.2 + 4.8 = 39
USC: 30.8 + 6.7 = 37.5
Texas: 26.9 + 8.3 = 35.2
Notre Dame: 24 + 8.7 = 32.7
WUSTL: 23 + 3.3 = 26.3
Illinois: 22.1 + 2.3 = 24.4
UNC: 16.4 + 5.1 = 21.5
Wake: 14.7 + 5.8 = 20.5
W & M: 12.7 + 5.9 = 18.6
Alabama: 8.1 + 9.3 = 17.4
SMU: 14.3 + 3 = 17.3

*: Don't kid yourself

Well, I know not every school has reported in yet but I think it's obivous what the new ordering of the T14 should be.

Instead of
HYS
CCN
MVPB
DCNG

It is now obviously
HYS
CCP
N(YU)DN(U)
VB
MCU(CI)

Glad we can finally put that baby to rest.

Imagine if this actually happened and UCI cracked the T14. Dre would kill himself.

[Revolver066]

seriously? just because nyu's clerkship placement tanked slightly for 1 yr its down one grade? not to mention some significant self selection to PI? this is just blatant trolling.

JFC calm down dude. It was clearly a joke.

lol. I think the whole idea of T6 and tiers is kinda dumb tbh. Maybe for admissions standards but I dont think it should be used for placement at all.

[table3]

As schools begin to update their sites with c/o 2012 employment stats, I figured we'd start one thread to compile the key information. When more schools publish their numbers, let me know and I'll update the OP.

School: Employed in firms of 100+ attorneys + federal clerkships = Total

Penn: 66.7 + 10.4 = 77.1
Stanford: 47 + 28.2 = 75.2
Harvard: 53.6 + 17.8 = 71.4
NYU: 59.5 + 5.6 = 65.1
Duke: 51.1 + 12.9 = 64
UVA: 47.8 + 14.3 = 62.1
Mich: 43.3 + 8.5 = 51.8
UCI: 23.2 + 28.6 = 51.8*
GULC: 39.1 + 3.7 = 42.8
UCLA: 34.2 + 4.8 = 39
USC: 30.8 + 6.7 = 37.5
Texas: 26.9 + 8.3 = 35.2
Notre Dame: 24 + 8.7 = 32.7
WUSTL: 23 + 3.3 = 26.3
Illinois: 22.1 + 2.3 = 24.4
UNC: 16.4 + 5.1 = 21.5
Wake: 14.7 + 5.8 = 20.5
W & M: 12.7 + 5.9 = 18.6
Alabama: 8.1 + 9.3 = 17.4
SMU: 14.3 + 3 = 17.3

*: Don't kid yourself

Well, I know not every school has reported in yet but I think it's obivous what the new ordering of the T14 should be.

Instead of
HYS
CCN
MVPB
DCNG

It is now obviously
HYS
CCP
N(YU)DN(U)
VB
MCU(CI)

Glad we can finally put that baby to rest.

Can someone translate?

[Dmini7]

As schools begin to update their sites with c/o 2012 employment stats, I figured we'd start one thread to compile the key information. When more schools publish their numbers, let me know and I'll update the OP.

School: Employed in firms of 100+ attorneys + federal clerkships = Total

Penn: 66.7 + 10.4 = 77.1
Stanford: 47 + 28.2 = 75.2
Harvard: 53.6 + 17.8 = 71.4
NYU: 59.5 + 5.6 = 65.1
Duke: 51.1 + 12.9 = 64
UVA: 47.8 + 14.3 = 62.1
Mich: 43.3 + 8.5 = 51.8
UCI: 23.2 + 28.6 = 51.8*
GULC: 39.1 + 3.7 = 42.8
UCLA: 34.2 + 4.8 = 39
USC: 30.8 + 6.7 = 37.5
Texas: 26.9 + 8.3 = 35.2
Notre Dame: 24 + 8.7 = 32.7
WUSTL: 23 + 3.3 = 26.3
Illinois: 22.1 + 2.3 = 24.4
UNC: 16.4 + 5.1 = 21.5
Wake: 14.7 + 5.8 = 20.5
W & M: 12.7 + 5.9 = 18.6
Alabama: 8.1 + 9.3 = 17.4
SMU: 14.3 + 3 = 17.3

*: Don't kid yourself

Well, I know not every school has reported in yet but I think it's obivous what the new ordering of the T14 should be.

Instead of
HYS
CCN
MVPB
DCNG

It is now obviously
HYS
CCP
N(YU)DN(U)
VB
MCU(CI)

Glad we can finally put that baby to rest.

Can someone translate?

he is trolling by employment numbers. the Parenthesis is to emphasize which school it is. The biggest point of it is the UCI in the top though.

[cahwc12]

he is trolling by employment numbers. the Parenthesis is to emphasize which school it is. The biggest point of it is the UCI in the top though.

American could be in the top too if they shrunk their class size to 60 students.

Tiago, is there any chance we can get c/o2011 data in the same post for comparison? (maybe class size too)

For example, UT:

2012: 26.9 + 8.3 = 35.2 (class size ~400?)
2011: 23 + 7.1 = 30.1 (class size 341)

So that's a pretty good improvement.

edit: actually UCI's graduating class was 60 students if none withdrew.

[Aberzombie1892]

seriously? just because nyu's clerkship placement tanked slightly for 1 yr its down one grade? not to mention some significant self selection to PI? this is just blatant trolling.

JFC calm down dude. It was clearly a joke.

lol. I think the whole idea of T6 and tiers is kinda dumb tbh. Maybe for admissions standards but I dont think it should be used for placement at all.

I do think that historically, the argument could be made that Columbia, Chicago, and Penn generally place 10-25% (of their total class) better than the rest of the non HYS T14. While the exact amount of difference varies based on which other school you compare them to, in the realm of big law/fed clerk placement, a 10-20% difference is a notably large difference.

[Tiago Splitter]

Tiago, is there any chance we can get c/o2011 data in the same post for comparison? (maybe class size too)

For example, UT:

2012: 26.9 + 8.3 = 35.2 (class size ~400?)
2011: 23 + 7.1 = 30.1 (class size 341)

I'll add this to the OP but I could use some help with the research if anyone else has a little more time on their hands.

[Robespierre]

Georgetown is up: http://law.georgetown.edu/admissions-fi ... -15-13.pdf

100+ firms: 196/626 = 39.1%
AIII clerkships: 23/626 = 3.7%

42.1% total and 83 school-funded positions (13.3%)

It should read 245/626 for 101+ firms and 42.8% for the total.

ETA: Scooped

I find it interesting that while the total number of school-funded of jobs between the c/o of 2011 and 2012 haven't changed much (84 v. 83) the number in FT/LT jobs has increased from 19 to 61. Any explanation for this beyond GULC increased the length of its school funded jobs to make its employment stats look better?

Either way, this makes me feel slightly better about the possibility of attending GULC this fall.

This is it, pure and simple. They got tired of GW's inflated stats so they're fighting fire with fire.

Btw, thanks Tiago for the great thread.

[lhanvt13]

tag

[mrjohnsterman]

UGA
http://www.law.uga.edu/placement-statistics

2012 16.6% (100+), 7.4% (federal clerkships)=total 24.0%
2011 8.8% (100+) 7.5% (federal clerkships)=total 16.3

[Revolver066]

seriously? just because nyu's clerkship placement tanked slightly for 1 yr its down one grade? not to mention some significant self selection to PI? this is just blatant trolling.

JFC calm down dude. It was clearly a joke.

lol. I think the whole idea of T6 and tiers is kinda dumb tbh. Maybe for admissions standards but I dont think it should be used for placement at all.

I do think that historically, the argument could be made that Columbia, Chicago, and Penn generally place 10-25% (of their total class) better than the rest of the non HYS T14. While the exact amount of difference varies based on which other school you compare them to, in the realm of big law/fed clerk placement, a 10-20% difference is a notably large difference.

I agree, but ppl get too worked up about these tier things (as you know, you get unfairly attacked way too often IMHO). We obviously know YS and probably H are killer schools, so let the students decide based on the stats/placement location/scholly considerations between the rest. All the info is out there . Saying NYU is clearly a tier above Penn while Virginia is a tier above Duke, for example makes no sense given the stats we have, at least not in the general sense.

[Revolver066]

Also, great job Tiago and Bronck, keep up the good work.

[cahwc12]

Tiago, is there any chance we can get c/o2011 data in the same post for comparison? (maybe class size too)

For example, UT:

2012: 26.9 + 8.3 = 35.2 (class size ~400?)
2011: 23 + 7.1 = 30.1 (class size 341)

I'll add this to the OP but I could use some help with the research if anyone else has a little more time on their hands.

100+ Firms: 110/190
Fed Clerkships: 13/190

Penn: 66.7(+7.3) + 10.4(+1.3) = 77.1(+8.6)
Stanford: 47(-2.5) + 28.2(+4.8) = 75.2(+2.3)
Harvard: 53.6(+4.5) + 17.8(+1.5) = 71.4(+6)
NYU: 59.5(+16.4) + 5.6(-5.3) = 65.1(+11.1)
Cornell: 57.8(+19.0) + 6.8(-1.2) = 64.7(+17.9)
Duke: 51.1(+6.2) + 12.9(+1.8) = 64(+8.0)
UVA: 47.8(+9.6) + 14.3(+3.7) = 62.1(+13.3)
Mich: 43.3(+9.3) + 8.5(+2.1) = 51.8(+11.4)
UCI: 23.2 + 28.6 = 51.8*
GULC: 39.1(+5.6) + 3.7(-.2) = 42.8(+5.4)
UCLA: 34.2(+11.7) + 4.8(+.4) = 39(+12.1)
USC: 30.8(+3.5) + 6.7(-2.4) = 37.5(+1.1)
Texas: 26.9(+3.9) + 8.3(+1.2) = 35.2(+5.1)
Notre Dame: 24(+4.0) + 8.7(-3.4) = 32.7(+.6)
WUSTL: 23(+5.3) + 3.3(+.5) = 26.3(+5.8)
Illinois: 22.1(+7.4) + 2.3(-2.5) = 24.4(+4.9)
UGA: 16.6(+7.8) + 7.4(-.1) = 24(+7.7)
UNC: 16.4(+3.4) + 5.1(+.6) = 21.5(+4.0)
Wake: 14.7(+3.9) + 5.8(+3.3) = 20.5(+7.2)
W & M: 12.7(+5.8) + 5.9(-1.5) = 18.6(+4.3)
Alabama: 8.1(-1.7) + 9.3(+.8) = 17.4 (-.9)
SMU: 14.3(+.3) + 3(-1.2) = 17.3(-.9)

Next steps for you/anyone else:

(1) color code as in OP
(2) verify stats via LST (I just typed the schools and did arithmetic but there could be mistakes)
(3) find out clas sizes for c/o2012 because some drops/gains could be more a factor of class size changes than hiring changes.

Probably just update OP since per other thread new data will be up on LST in two weeks

edit: added Cornell data as per below

[hunter.d]

GULC class size:

2011: 644
2012: 626(-2.8%)

[Rahviveh]

Cornell is up

100+ Firms: 110/190
Fed Clerkships: 13/190

Firms + Clerkships = 64.7%

School-funded = 6.3% (12/190)

[BigZuck]

Cornell is up

100+ Firms: 110/190
Fed Clerkships: 13/190

Firms + Clerkships = 64.7%

School-funded = 6.3% (12/190)

Damn. Nice.

[Bronck]

Cornell is up

100+ Firms: 110/190
Fed Clerkships: 13/190

Firms + Clerkships = 64.7%

School-funded = 6.3% (12/190)

Thanks; overall pretty impressive showing for Cornell.