what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment?? Forum

[paradox]

In answer to the question regarding moving from one Biglaw firm to another please understand that your ability to control a client who pays substantial fees will make you far- far more valuable than the competent senior associate that lacks people skills and controls nothing.

[Veyron]

So now the advice is don't go to T6 unless you get money or want public interest? I am not sure how I feel about that. It is getting pretty extreme.

I agree.

Sorry reality bites. I tend to find that the further people get into this whole law school thing, the more they realize just how big a deal debt is.

Eh. With opportunity costs close to zero for the type of people we're talking about (kid who gets big $$$ at T30 or sticker at T10-14 = likely to be unemployed if he weren't in LS), and the protections of IBR, going to law school isn't a terrible idea.

Whenever I have IRL conversations about this, someone will always start talking about how he "could've gotten a $60,000/yr. job straight out of undergrad," and usually no one is rude enough to tell him that he's a moron for thinking that. Kids who actually could land a $60K/yr. job out of UG (ChemE's, other engineers with good creds or from top schools, certain very high-end HYP'ers, etc.) would likely not be stupid enough to go to LS.

Well, the opportunity costs are also taking money at a lower ranked school so consider that. Taking out 200k in loans (and its actually about 230k now for a 0L once you factor in cost of attendance, interest while in school, and likely tuition increases) basically commits you to doing biglaw which very few 0Ls know enough about to make an intelligent decision that thats what they want to do. Just to put that in perspective, 230k is 35k a year (pre-tax) so effectively 45k a year. Thats worth it for very few people regardless of what they want to do.

[keg411]

In answer to the question regarding moving from one Biglaw firm to another please understand that your ability to control a client who pays substantial fees will make you far- far more valuable than the competent senior associate that lacks people skills and controls nothing.

When I was talking about leaving, I was talking about the "typical" attrition which are 3rd and 4th year associates -- not people who are likely going to have substantial sway or control over a client. I wasn't talking about exceptions; I was talking about why and how most people leave BigLaw or lateral to other firms.

Also: I agree with bk's assessment. Whether someone should go or not go to a T14 school over a non-T14 with $$$ is pretty personal and there are a ton of things to consider (especially whether or not the non-T14 is in your home state/region).

[ganggreen]

Veyron, are you looking at graduating with much debt (if you don't mind sharing)? Just curious if any of your experience so far has given you these strong beliefs. I agree that even with a biglaw salary 45k a year is pretty scary.

So now the advice is don't go to T6 unless you get money or want public interest? I am not sure how I feel about that. It is getting pretty extreme.

I agree.

Sorry reality bites. I tend to find that the further people get into this whole law school thing, the more they realize just how big a deal debt is.

Eh. With opportunity costs close to zero for the type of people we're talking about (kid who gets big $$$ at T30 or sticker at T10-14 = likely to be unemployed if he weren't in LS), and the protections of IBR, going to law school isn't a terrible idea.

Whenever I have IRL conversations about this, someone will always start talking about how he "could've gotten a $60,000/yr. job straight out of undergrad," and usually no one is rude enough to tell him that he's a moron for thinking that. Kids who actually could land a $60K/yr. job out of UG (ChemE's, other engineers with good creds or from top schools, certain very high-end HYP'ers, etc.) would likely not be stupid enough to go to LS.

That doesn't make any sense. I'm looking at sticker at a T14 because I shit the bed on the LSAT -- not because I couldn't have gotten a job so it's now my only option left. Had I not dropped my accounting major after completing half of the courses (I hated it), I'd have 4 offers from the Big 4 at 60k each. It's not just engineers making that kind of money...

[Simplicity]

Had I not dropped my accounting major after completing half of the courses (I hated it), I'd have 4 offers from the Big 4 at 60k each. It's not just engineers making that kind of money...

Depends. I've already accepted an offer at a Big 4 firm, and in the city where I'll be working, first-year staff only make $50,000-55,000. According to glassdoor, first-year staff make $70,000 in NYC, which is approximately $10,000 less than I make when adjusted for COL. Not exactly a stellar salary, IMO. Also, annual raises at all firms are fairly minimal (until you make partner, then you make bank). Even senior managers who have been at the firm 10+ years make a little over $100k. The only positive is the experience you gain opens up a lot of opportunities if you stay for a few years.

All-in-all, working at a Big 4 firm blows. The work is mind-numbingly boring, and the hours suck. Be happy you didn't do accounting. I'll be going to law school next year once I fulfill my one year work requirement to get my CPA. Being a lawyer might be just as boring, but there's so many things you can do with a JD aside from working at a law firm. It opens up a lot of opportunities.

[ganggreen]

Had I not dropped my accounting major after completing half of the courses (I hated it), I'd have 4 offers from the Big 4 at 60k each. It's not just engineers making that kind of money...

Depends. I've already accepted an offer at a Big 4 firm, and in the city where I'll be working, first-year staff only make $50,000-55,000. According to glassdoor, first-year staff make $70,000 in NYC, which is approximately $10,000 less than I make when adjusted for COL. Not exactly a stellar salary, IMO. Also, annual raises at all firms are fairly minimal (until you make partner, then you make bank). Even senior managers who have been at the firm 10+ years make a little over $100k. The only positive is the experience you gain opens up a lot of opportunities if you stay for a few years.

All-in-all, working at a Big 4 firm blows. The work is mind-numbingly boring, and the hours suck. Be happy you didn't do accounting. I'll be going to law school next year once I fulfill my one year work requirement to get my CPA. Being a lawyer might be just as boring, but there's so many things you can do with a JD aside from working at a law firm. It opens up a lot of opportunities.

Yeah good point about salaries. I had planned to work in New York and live in Jersey with a lower COL at least. I think my friends taking jobs in Boston are making more like 60.

And with that LSAT, I think you made the right move with the career switch haha

[Veyron]

Veyron, are you looking at graduating with much debt (if you don't mind sharing)? Just curious if any of your experience so far has given you these strong beliefs. I agree that even with a biglaw salary 45k a year is pretty scary.

I'll have a significant amount of debt when I graduate but not sticker type debt. And yes, weighing the fulltime pay from my SA firm and examining the opportunity costs I realize I could have taken home near the same amount of money working less hours without the graduate degree and not lost 3 years worth of salary. I also have come to realize how the debt makes it difficult to contemplate doing things I would otherwise be interested in like joining a small criminal defense firm. That being said, I do like the firm I'm going to and I'm optimistic that I'll find the work interesting. They also have an extremely low attrition rate. As long as I like my job and have enough money to live comfortably, I'll be pretty happy.

[094320]

..

[kitkat450]

So now the advice is don't go to T6 unless you get money or want public interest? I am not sure how I feel about that. It is getting pretty extreme.

I agree.

This may be a dumb question, but I'm not sure I understand why to go to a T6 if you want to do public interest versus a lower T14 with money? I would have thought it would be the opposite because your salary would be lower with PI and you'd have more debt at a T6 at sticker.

What am i missing?

[Veyron]

So now the advice is don't go to T6 unless you get money or want public interest? I am not sure how I feel about that. It is getting pretty extreme.

I agree.

This may be a dumb question, but I'm not sure I understand why to go to a T6 if you want to do public interest versus a lower T14 with money? I would have thought it would be the opposite because your salary would be lower with PI and you'd have more debt at a T6 at sticker.

What am i missing?

LRAP

[arkansawyer]

I think it's incorrect to say that people who make $50-60K a year right out of undergrad aren't going to law school. In fact, I know that's true, because I'm doing it.

[laxbrah420]

unemployed if not LS for sticker top 10-14? what the hell are you talking about? i went to top 50 school, my friends weren't particularly smart, and all have jobs that pay ~45-70. the exception are TFA kids making 35-45. my new conclusion about this website is that everybody here has terrible job hunting skills as a whole

[johansantana21]

unemployed if not LS for sticker top 10-14? what the hell are you talking about? i went to top 50 school, my friends weren't particularly smart, and all have jobs that pay ~45-70. the exception are TFA kids making 35-45. my new conclusion about this website is that everybody here has terrible job hunting skills as a whole

I'm sure making 45k in 200k debt is amazing bro, gtfo.

[laxbrah420]

what. some broski said there's zero opportunity cost for these kids who dont get scholarships since theyd be unemployed

[09042014]

unemployed if not LS for sticker top 10-14? what the hell are you talking about? i went to top 50 school, my friends weren't particularly smart, and all have jobs that pay ~45-70. the exception are TFA kids making 35-45. my new conclusion about this website is that everybody here has terrible job hunting skills as a whole

I'm sure making 45k in 200k debt is amazing bro, gtfo.

I think Laxbrah means Undergrad.

[TaipeiMort]

I attend a T6 school. However, I have worked with great attorneys/met partners of firms that attended T4 schools. I would think that for the majority of law students, those that are really just looking for a strong return on investment and have no real idea/ are not emotionally invested in any particular type of legal work (90%), the risk/return odds are against you outside of the T14, unless you have a great scholarship or a job lined up.

To put it in perspective, I and four of my friends who are a little above median received more than 20 offers. Our buddies at a T1 school, which used to place 15-20% in big law have stated that their entire class only have nine people working big law jobs all together.

Another reality is that getting a degree from a T14 school is in reality a different degree. It allows you access to jobs that most T1, and roughly all T2,3,4 degrees will not get you. Aside from regionally dominant institutions within their region (eg. USC, UCLA, Wyoming, Boulder, Georgetown, Texas Tech), and large ideological network schools within their network (Notre Dame, BYU, SMU, Cal), your T1-4 degree may appear to practitioners like a University of Phoenix degree appears to the HR people at Goldman Sachs. Notice, I am not stating that the educational quality is worse, or the student body is less intelligent, it is just a market reality (ie. I got smoked on an assignment at a job this summer by a tier 4 student).

Any guy that doesn't know that Georgetown and Berk are T-14s obviously did not attend a "T6." People, don't feed the obvious troll.

I wasn't trolling. Berkeley and Georgetown are T14s. I was just using them to make a point about other advantages because they have demonstrated advantages that other T14 schools don't. Cornell's regional advantage is considerably less than Georgetown's because everyone is gunning for NYC. Berkeley has an advantage for public interest, as well as at some of the best plaintiffs firms and other firms with a progressive culture because it has a strong ideological brand and network. For example, Keker regularly recruits from HYS, and Berkeley, but not CCN.

[BruceWayne]

I wasn't trolling. Berkeley and Georgetown are T14s. I was just using them to make a point about other advantages because they have demonstrated advantages that other T14 schools don't. Cornell's regional advantage is considerably less than Georgetown's because everyone is gunning for NYC. Berkeley has an advantage for public interest, as well as at some of the best plaintiffs firms and other firms with a progressive culture because it has a strong ideological brand and network. For example, Keker regularly recruits from HYS, and Berkeley, but not CCN.

I think you're reading too much into things. That's probably because the firm is in San Francisco. Any firm in San Francisco probably equates Berkeley with CCN. It's probably similar to how UVA is viewed as being just as good as CCN in the South or the way Northwestern is viewed in Chicago compared to Columbia and NYU.

[BruceWayne]

unemployed if not LS for sticker top 10-14? what the hell are you talking about? i went to top 50 school, my friends weren't particularly smart, and all have jobs that pay ~45-70. the exception are TFA kids making 35-45. my new conclusion about this website is that everybody here has terrible job hunting skills as a whole

I'm sure making 45k in 200k debt is amazing bro, gtfo.

I think Laxbrah means Undergrad.

LOL why is he saying "top 50" as if those are crappy or even average schools? Top 50 includes UNC, Michigan, Tufts, Georgetown, Vanderbilt, and UT. I'm sure the average grad at those schools are pulling jobs that pay 45-70K a year. But for the average college grad their lucky to be employed in anything full time other than retail. People need a reality check. It's awful out there for recent college grads that didn't go to a top school.

[TaipeiMort]

Soo if you are URM, have 3 years of decent legal experience prior to law school, and attend say Uchicago, is it naïve to think you have a good shot at Biglaw even if you're not top 50% of your class?

Go to Chicago. You'll be fine. Pretend you're going somewhere else if you have to, so they give you more money. It's a really fine institution and the likes of Tapei and other counter-productive, pro-chicago trolls are doing it a disservice with the constant rigor-this-rigor-that-Harvard-diluted-faculty crap.

Anecdotal, but every URM I know got offers from OCI, and seemed to be both happy and academically competitive at UChicago. Also, pretty much everyone I know with real world work experience (not just Goldman, McKinsey, or military, but also stuff like teaching or working in a small business) got an offer. We ran numbers on last year's class of those who actually participated in OCI in another thread, and figured that somewhere between 80-90% obtained summer positions.

[TaipeiMort]

I wasn't trolling. Berkeley and Georgetown are T14s. I was just using them to make a point about other advantages because they have demonstrated advantages that other T14 schools don't. Cornell's regional advantage is considerably less than Georgetown's because everyone is gunning for NYC. Berkeley has an advantage for public interest, as well as at some of the best plaintiffs firms and other firms with a progressive culture because it has a strong ideological brand and network. For example, Keker regularly recruits from HYS, and Berkeley, but not CCN.

I think you're reading too much into things. That's probably because the firm is in San Francisco. Any firm in San Francisco probably equates Berkeley with CCN. It's probably similar to how UVA is viewed as being just as good as CCN in the South or the way Northwestern is viewed in Chicago compared to Columbia and NYU.

Yeah, Berkeley may be more of a stretch on the ideological side, but Notre Dame and BYU, and to a lower extent a school like SMU or Yeshiva/Dozo (not the whole class, more of the Orthodox side) should expect to have some advantage among their respective networks of religious adherents.

[AS33]

Taipei- are you attending Chicago now? Can I pm you?

[laxbrah420]

unemployed if not LS for sticker top 10-14? what the hell are you talking about? i went to top 50 school, my friends weren't particularly smart, and all have jobs that pay ~45-70. the exception are TFA kids making 35-45. my new conclusion about this website is that everybody here has terrible job hunting skills as a whole

I'm sure making 45k in 200k debt is amazing bro, gtfo.

I think Laxbrah means Undergrad.

LOL why is he saying "top 50" as if those are crappy or even average schools? Top 50 includes UNC, Michigan, Tufts, Georgetown, Vanderbilt, and UT. I'm sure the average grad at those schools are pulling jobs that pay 45-70K a year. But for the average college grad their lucky to be employed in anything full time other than retail. People need a reality check. It's awful out there for recent college grads that didn't go to a top school.

Id describe those schools at top 25. I can't imagine anybody from those schools being unemployed. I'm thinking the majority of the unemployed college grads attended CC, or like SUNY purchase.

[TaipeiMort]

Taipei- are you attending Chicago now? Can I pm you?

Sure.

[laxbrah420]

I just take issue with this sentiment because it leads to the conclusion that no one should go to law school --Either you have good enough grades/are smart enough to succeed w/o the degree or do not have the ability to get into a good school.

Perhaps the best conclusion is that only splitters (<3.2, >170) should be going

[BruceWayne]

Id describe those schools at top 25. I can't imagine anybody from those schools being unemployed. I'm thinking the majority of the unemployed college grads attended CC, or like SUNY purchase.

You're thinking wrong; let me give you a more realistic list of schools: Ohio State, Tennessee, Rutgers, Seton Hall, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Temple, Michigan State, UC Irvine, George Mason, Auburn, Fresno State, Vilianova, Minnesota, Virginia Tech, Georgia State, etc.