Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$? Forum

[firemed]

Speaking as a fellow atheist, people like Richard Dawkins frustrate me because they cite religion as fundamentally backward and intolerant, an assertion that is neither fair nor true. Do you call that tolerance? Or do you think Christianity is naturally predisposed to bringing out the worst in people. Have you ever heard of a little something called human nature? People tend to use religion as a shield to hide their own moral failings. That doesn't make religion fundamentally bad. It just shows that there are fundamentally bad people out there.

+1 to the bolded.

Though I thought you were one of "the chosen" like me. Maybe I got you mixed up.

Oh, and OP... maybe ND would be good for you. Make you meet some liberal catholics and get over your intolerable arrogance about your own position.

[HeavenWood]

Speaking as a fellow atheist, people like Richard Dawkins frustrate me because they cite religion as fundamentally backward and intolerant, an assertion that is neither fair nor true. Do you call that tolerance? Or do you think Christianity is naturally predisposed to bringing out the worst in people. Have you ever heard of a little something called human nature? People tend to use religion as a shield to hide their own moral failings. That doesn't make religion fundamentally bad. It just shows that there are fundamentally bad people out there.

+1 to the bolded.

Though I thought you were one of "the chosen" like me. Maybe I got you mixed up.

Oh, and OP... maybe ND would be good for you. Make you meet some liberal catholics and get over your intolerable arrogance about your own position.

I don't identify with Judaism on a theological basis, but I'm still proud of my heritage. Let's call me an extremely faithful ethnic/cultural Jew.

[SupraVln180]

I'm going to ND next year and although I am Catholic and consider myself religious/ spiritual, I am still pretty liberal in my beliefs. So, you won't be alone in that aspect.

[Grizz]

ITT: OP prefers to argue theology instead of seeking help for the very real decision at hand.

OP has made it clear he doesn't really want our help.

[quixotical]

ITT: OP prefers to argue theology instead of seeking help for the very real decision at hand.

OP has made it clear he doesn't really want our help.

I specifically asked you for your opinion. You have never answered the question I posted-- how to choose between these two schools given the scholarships and given my non-Catholic background.

[quixotical]

ITT: OP prefers to argue theology instead of seeking help for the very real decision at hand.

Anyway, none of this is germane to my original question. If you have an opinion on whether the advantages of ND outweigh Minnesota given the scholarship offers and my atheist background, I would be happy to hear it.

[Knock]

ITT: OP prefers to argue theology instead of seeking help for the very real decision at hand.

Anyway, none of this is germane to my original question. If you have an opinion on whether the advantages of ND outweigh Minnesota given the scholarship offers and my atheist background, I would be happy to hear it.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=150681. No, any advantages ND may or may not have are not worth attending over Minnesota.

[quixotical]

Oh, and OP... maybe ND would be good for you. Make you meet some liberal catholics and get over your intolerable arrogance about your own position.

Why do you think I am arrogant just because I am firm in my atheism? By that same reasoning, I could call all religious people arrogant.

And I never argued that liberal Catholics don't exist. I just wanted to know how ND's Catholic affiliation affects non-Catholics, and especially atheists, who attend.

[quixotical]

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=150681. No, any advantages ND may or may not have are not worth attending over Minnesota.

Wow-- what an awesome resource! Thanks for linking. I would have gathered the exact opposite from the chart though... ND outperforms MN by every measure. Why do you think the advantages aren't significant enough to warrant ND over MN?

[Knock]

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=150681. No, any advantages ND may or may not have are not worth attending over Minnesota.

Wow-- what an awesome resource! Thanks for linking. I would have gathered the exact opposite from the chart though... ND outperforms MN by every measure. Why do you think the advantages aren't significant enough to warrant ND over MN?

What kind of law are you interested in?

[quixotical]

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=150681. No, any advantages ND may or may not have are not worth attending over Minnesota.

Wow-- what an awesome resource! Thanks for linking. I would have gathered the exact opposite from the chart though... ND outperforms MN by every measure. Why do you think the advantages aren't significant enough to warrant ND over MN?

What kind of law are you interested in?

Human rights law, so probably PI or government. Also wouldn't mind clerking. MN and ND are similar with PI/Gov't, but ND seems to have overall better employment... or is this irrelevant?

[DMBFan]

I would go to MN. I am Agnostic and I would not be comfortable with a class starting with a prayer. You seem to have similar sentiments so I would avoid ND. The small difference in money doesn't seem to justify going somewhere you'd be uncomfortable.

edit for grammar.

[Knock]

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=150681. No, any advantages ND may or may not have are not worth attending over Minnesota.

Wow-- what an awesome resource! Thanks for linking. I would have gathered the exact opposite from the chart though... ND outperforms MN by every measure. Why do you think the advantages aren't significant enough to warrant ND over MN?

What kind of law are you interested in?

Human rights law, so probably PI or government. Also wouldn't mind clerking. MN and ND are similar with PI/Gov't, but ND seems to have overall better employment... or is this irrelevant?

Notre Dame (LinkRemoved)
Minnesota (LinkRemoved)

While it does appear that ND has slightly better placement with a preliminary glance at the statistics, I don't think it would be worth attending a school where you would be uncomfortable.

[quixotical]

Notre Dame (LinkRemoved)
Minnesota (LinkRemoved)

While it does appear that ND has slightly better placement with a preliminary glance at the statistics, I don't think it would be worth attending a school where you would be uncomfortable.

Thanks very much for the resources and the advice. Really appreciate it!

[mpj_3050]

First off, good job on the choices.

Atheism is definitely something to keep quiet about whether you are in law school or not.

I'm agnostic but mold to whatever the situation requires.

[quixotical]

First off, good job on the choices.

Atheism is definitely something to keep quiet about whether you are in law school or not.

I'm agnostic but mold to whatever the situation requires.

Maybe TLS has made me cynical, but are you being sarcastic about these choices being good? I mean, they're not T14... lol.

Do you really think being an atheist is a shameful secret? 16% of the US population is non-religious... so we're a minority, but not *that* much of a minority. I suspect it's worse to be an atheist in some places than others... are you in the deep south/the Bible belt? There's definitely a stigma against it, but in academia (with the exception of religiously affiliated schools) there is a much higher number of atheists. Atheism correlates positively to education and intelligence.

[thecilent]

I only really skimmed the thread. But op, I feel you man. I feel the same way and would prob be annoyed with nd, but I'd still prob choose it in your situation.

And +1 to kwais posts.

[quixotical]

I only really skimmed the thread. But op, I feel you man. I feel the same way and would prob be annoyed with nd, but I'd still prob choose it in your situation.

And +1 to kwais posts.

Hey thanks. Why would you choose ND though? I'm a little surprised there is so much ND love considering TLS'ers are usually ranking conscious and ND is ranked lower than Minn (and has been consistently). I mean, it's 20 versus 23, but I'm still surprised at how many are saying ND conclusively.

[mpj_3050]

First off, good job on the choices.

Atheism is definitely something to keep quiet about whether you are in law school or not.

I'm agnostic but mold to whatever the situation requires.

Maybe TLS has made me cynical, but are you being sarcastic about these choices being good? I mean, they're not T14... lol.

Do you really think being an atheist is a shameful secret? 16% of the US population is non-religious... so we're a minority, but not *that* much of a minority. I suspect it's worse to be an atheist in some places than others... are you in the deep south/the Bible belt? There's definitely a stigma against it, but in academia (with the exception of religiously affiliated schools) there is a much higher number of atheists. Atheism correlates positively to education and intelligence.

No, I'm serious. Notre Dame and Minnesota are great, especially with the money. Better schools than I can get into.

I've never really felt comfortable telling someone I don't believe in God. I'm in the midwest right now and heading to the south. I would choose Minneapolis over South Bend myself having been to both.

[quixotical]

No, I'm serious. Notre Dame and Minnesota are great, especially with the money. Better schools than I can get into.

I've never really felt comfortable telling someone I don't believe in God. I'm in the midwest right now and heading to the south. I would choose Minneapolis over South Bend myself having been to both.

Thanks for the advice! Sorry for doubting your sincerity, haha.

I lived in Kansas for less than two years but I was too young at the time to get a feel for how hard it would be to "come out" as an atheist. I wonder if being an atheist in Minnesota is stigmatized? Hmmm.

I've only been to Minneapolis. Good to hear that someone who has been to both favors Minneapolis. I feel like I'm looking for reasons not to choose ND, lol.

[beachbum]

IBshitstorm?

Roger, we have a confirmed shitstorm.



And just go to Minnesota, OP. Your posts have made it abundantly clear that you cannot/would refuse to be comfortable in a setting like ND. These are peer schools we're talking about, so enjoy Minny and stfu.

[birdlaw117]

IBshitstorm?

Roger, we have a confirmed shitstorm.



And just go to Minnesota, OP. Your posts have made it abundantly clear that you cannot/would refuse to be comfortable in a setting like ND. These are peer schools we're talking about, so enjoy Minny and stfu.

Truth

[firemed]

Oh, and OP... maybe ND would be good for you. Make you meet some liberal catholics and get over your intolerable arrogance about your own position.

Why do you think I am arrogant just because I am firm in my atheism? By that same reasoning, I could call all religious people arrogant.

And I never argued that liberal Catholics don't exist. I just wanted to know how ND's Catholic affiliation affects non-Catholics, and especially atheists, who attend.

By the same reasoning you cannot call ALL religious people arrogant. But I will agree that a lot of them are. Very, very much so. But, surprisingly, I have found some atheists remarkably arrogant and intolerant.

Simple research on ND's website indicated to me that they have many programs geared towards PI, and student organizations geared towards human and civil rights. The only thing I didn't see was a LGBT organization at the law school... but they do have one on for the grad and undergrad students on their main website. But you don't really care about that, do you?

What I want to know is why you asked this question if, when people said it wasn't a big deal and even provided links for you supporting this, you still argue with them about it? By the second page you should've realized what your decision would be. You are being arrogant in that you refuse to deal with the possible minor discomfort you might experience in dealing with people who are different than you. But what I was really referring to is the fact that you are being (or at least coming off as) arrogant by continuing to argue in declarative sentences "supporting" your decision, despite evidence from several sources to the contrary, that you are right to still be concerned- as though this was somehow an argument that can be applied to anyone but you. Simply saying "Hey, I hear it won't be so bad... but I think I might be more comfortable in MN" is preferable to discussing papal infallibility and other red herrings to what is ultimately a personal decision for you that really has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with your comfort level. And there is nothing wrong with just saying "Hey, I am not comfortable". I don't think anyone would fault you on that.

Instead you have spent several pages talking about how you are "right" to be concerned because of this, that, and the other things that Christians and Catholics have done/positions they hold. See the difference?

[UnamSanctam]

Are you serious? You must not be Catholic, because all Catholics know that the Pope's word = God's word. The Pope says gay-marriage is sinful, birth control is sinful, and abortion is sinful. Whether or not individual Catholics decide to ignore the Pope/cherry-pick beliefs they are most comfortable with is a different story. But Catholicism is not like different branches of Protestants, where you have a wider interpretation of religious texts. The Pope's word is God's word. End of story.

If you're going to make statements about Papal Infallibility, at least know how the doctrine works first, herp derpington.

QFT. If I had a nickel for every time someone said something like "I grew up Catholic, so I totally know what they believe", I wouldn't be scared about law school debt. The RCC is notorious for its poor catechesis.

OP, you are correct that the Magisterium has always been opposed to abortion and gay marriage. Papal Infallibility, via ex cathedra statements, has rarely been exercised. It is NOT true that the Pope's word = God's word. It's silly to use common Protestant tactics. I still think you should go to ND. Hell, provided I can get in, I might even see you there. I promise I'm friendlier in person than this post makes me sound.

[bernard97]

Oh, and OP... maybe ND would be good for you. Make you meet some liberal catholics and get over your intolerable arrogance about your own position.

Why do you think I am arrogant just because I am firm in my atheism? By that same reasoning, I could call all religious people arrogant.

And I never argued that liberal Catholics don't exist. I just wanted to know how ND's Catholic affiliation affects non-Catholics, and especially atheists, who attend.

By the same reasoning you cannot call ALL religious people arrogant. But I will agree that a lot of them are. Very, very much so. But, surprisingly, I have found some atheists remarkably arrogant and intolerant.

Simple research on ND's website indicated to me that they have many programs geared towards PI, and student organizations geared towards human and civil rights. The only thing I didn't see was a LGBT organization at the law school... but they do have one on for the grad and undergrad students on their main website. But you don't really care about that, do you?

What I want to know is why you asked this question if, when people said it wasn't a big deal and even provided links for you supporting this, you still argue with them about it? By the second page you should've realized what your decision would be. You are being arrogant in that you refuse to deal with the possible minor discomfort you might experience in dealing with people who are different than you. But what I was really referring to is the fact that you are being (or at least coming off as) arrogant by continuing to argue in declarative sentences "supporting" your decision, despite evidence from several sources to the contrary, that you are right to still be concerned- as though this was somehow an argument that can be applied to anyone but you. Simply saying "Hey, I hear it won't be so bad... but I think I might be more comfortable in MN" is preferable to discussing papal infallibility and other red herrings to what is ultimately a personal decision for you that really has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with your comfort level. And there is nothing wrong with just saying "Hey, I am not comfortable". I don't think anyone would fault you on that.

Instead you have spent several pages talking about how you are "right" to be concerned because of this, that, and the other things that Christians and Catholics have done/positions they hold. See the difference?

+1

You do come off as arrogant, whether you mean to or not. Especially when you started talking about a correlation between intelligence and atheism. No one asked and it didn't relate to anything that was being discussed. You just threw it in there to make it seem as though you were somehow superior for being atheist.