The "Truth" About Law School Forum

[vamedic03]

Well what I've learned about nursing is that they are constantly being replaced.

Say you have 10 nurses working at a private clinic, they're being replaced with 1-2 nurse practitioners and 10+ 2-year medical assistant grads. This is cost effective for the clinic, as they have lower overall costs but don't experience that significant of a drop-off in service. This is becoming fairly common. Perhaps if the increased demand for medical services goes as predicted the demand for nurses will increase, but I've heard that things aren't in great shape currently.


Anyways, I have no desire to be a nurse. As far as law school, I've read the NY times article and a bunch of the blogs, if anyone has additional links, perhaps with more a quantitative approach and ones that don't focus on T4 grads who lived a lavish lifestyle on borrowed money, it would be greatly appreciated

Hmm... You know absolutely nothing about nursing, at least based on this post. Here are your following fallacies:

(1) The majority of nurses work in hospitals and not in private clinics;

(2) You don't replace nurses with nurse practitioners, rather, you hire nurse practitioners who can see and bill for services to expand your own services. NP's and PA's allow you to expand your practice without having to hire additional physicians.

(3) While new graduate nurses may not get the exact job they want, say in a Level 1 Trauma Center's ER or in a specialty ICU, they are getting jobs in acute care settings in hospitals. Once a nurse has 1-2 years of experience, it is extraordinarily easy for a nurse to get a job in pretty much any practice setting.

(4) When I practiced as a nurse, I was always receiving yearly pay increases - even during hiring freezes. When I left, I was on track to make ~90k working 3-4 shifts per week in an ICU.

I strongly disliked healthcare; however, for many people, being a nurse is a great career that allows for excellent work/family balance.

[Loyant]

I used to broker dental practices. OP's opinion on the dental market is vaguely accurate regarding dentists with no business sense. OP's opinion on the dental market is incorrect regarding dentists WITH business sense. That is all.

[Sandro]

I can't even find a retail job right now - fresh out of college kids with B.A.s are a dime a dozen, the degree is worthless. I took classes that taught me how to think like an economist and analyze international relations from different angles - which would be awesome if I could get a job as an economist or with the UN, but those arent happening. If I hadnt been planning on law school since shortly before I graduated I cant imagine what type of job I would find in the next few months to start my "career", and I have a decent resume compared to a lot of kids I graduated with (with very few doing anything they couldn't have done without a degree)

It seems to me like all of the people saying t-14 or bust are putting in the fact that you can snag a 40k job like candy right now fresh out of school with a social science degree. Not with 10% unemployment. Yes, going 150K+ into debt at a T2/T3/T4 is risky and probably isnt the best idea, but if you can get a decent scholarship/ in state tuition to a good school (T1) and your alternative ISNT a cushy 50k job sitting behind a desk like people assume their are tons of, law school isnt as risky/bad idea as people make it out to be.

[09042014]

I can't even find a retail job right now - fresh out of college kids with B.A.s are a dime a dozen, the degree is worthless. I took classes that taught me how to think like an economist and analyze international relations from different angles - which would be awesome if I could get a job as an economist or with the UN, but those arent happening. If I hadnt been planning on law school since shortly before I graduated I cant imagine what type of job I would find in the next few months to start my "career", and I have a decent resume compared to a lot of kids I graduated with.

It seems to me like all of the people saying t-14 or bust are putting in the fact that you can snag a 40k job like candy right now fresh out of school with a social science degree. Not with 10% unemployment. Yes, going 150K+ into debt at a T2/T3/T4 is risky and probably isnt the best idea, but if you can get a decent scholarship/ in state tuition to a good school (T1) and your alternative ISNT a cushy 50k job sitting behind a desk like people assume their are tons of, law school isnt as risky/bad idea as people make it out to be.

If you can't snag a job with a BA, you won't be able to be able to snag one with a JD. OCI makes getting a job easy, but if you don't get one there you gotta hustle. Which you can't do.

[Sandro]

I can't even find a retail job right now - fresh out of college kids with B.A.s are a dime a dozen, the degree is worthless. I took classes that taught me how to think like an economist and analyze international relations from different angles - which would be awesome if I could get a job as an economist or with the UN, but those arent happening. If I hadnt been planning on law school since shortly before I graduated I cant imagine what type of job I would find in the next few months to start my "career", and I have a decent resume compared to a lot of kids I graduated with.

It seems to me like all of the people saying t-14 or bust are putting in the fact that you can snag a 40k job like candy right now fresh out of school with a social science degree. Not with 10% unemployment. Yes, going 150K+ into debt at a T2/T3/T4 is risky and probably isnt the best idea, but if you can get a decent scholarship/ in state tuition to a good school (T1) and your alternative ISNT a cushy 50k job sitting behind a desk like people assume their are tons of, law school isnt as risky/bad idea as people make it out to be.

If you can't snag a job with a BA, you won't be able to be able to snag one with a JD. OCI makes getting a job easy, but if you don't get one there you gotta hustle. Which you can't do.

Ohhh you got me, I've been unemployed a few weeks = I can't "hustle", I'm doomed. Oh wait, youre a 1L on TLS, nvm

[AreJay711]

I can't even find a retail job right now - fresh out of college kids with B.A.s are a dime a dozen, the degree is worthless. I took classes that taught me how to think like an economist and analyze international relations from different angles - which would be awesome if I could get a job as an economist or with the UN, but those arent happening. If I hadnt been planning on law school since shortly before I graduated I cant imagine what type of job I would find in the next few months to start my "career", and I have a decent resume compared to a lot of kids I graduated with.

It seems to me like all of the people saying t-14 or bust are putting in the fact that you can snag a 40k job like candy right now fresh out of school with a social science degree. Not with 10% unemployment. Yes, going 150K+ into debt at a T2/T3/T4 is risky and probably isnt the best idea, but if you can get a decent scholarship/ in state tuition to a good school (T1) and your alternative ISNT a cushy 50k job sitting behind a desk like people assume their are tons of, law school isnt as risky/bad idea as people make it out to be.

If you can't snag a job with a BA, you won't be able to be able to snag one with a JD. OCI makes getting a job easy, but if you don't get one there you gotta hustle. Which you can't do.

Ohhh you got me, I've been unemployed a few weeks = I can't "hustle", I'm doomed. Oh wait, youre a 1L on TLS, nvm

My gf took a semester off from my spectacularly TTT undergrad for financial reasons and was able to get several job offers including one that payed $17 an hour. I'm not buying it when people act like there are no jobs whatsoever.

[Sandro]

I can't even find a retail job right now - fresh out of college kids with B.A.s are a dime a dozen, the degree is worthless. I took classes that taught me how to think like an economist and analyze international relations from different angles - which would be awesome if I could get a job as an economist or with the UN, but those arent happening. If I hadnt been planning on law school since shortly before I graduated I cant imagine what type of job I would find in the next few months to start my "career", and I have a decent resume compared to a lot of kids I graduated with.

It seems to me like all of the people saying t-14 or bust are putting in the fact that you can snag a 40k job like candy right now fresh out of school with a social science degree. Not with 10% unemployment. Yes, going 150K+ into debt at a T2/T3/T4 is risky and probably isnt the best idea, but if you can get a decent scholarship/ in state tuition to a good school (T1) and your alternative ISNT a cushy 50k job sitting behind a desk like people assume their are tons of, law school isnt as risky/bad idea as people make it out to be.

If you can't snag a job with a BA, you won't be able to be able to snag one with a JD. OCI makes getting a job easy, but if you don't get one there you gotta hustle. Which you can't do.

Ohhh you got me, I've been unemployed a few weeks = I can't "hustle", I'm doomed. Oh wait, youre a 1L on TLS, nvm

My gf took a semester off from my spectacularly TTT undergrad for financial reasons and was able to get several job offers including one that payed $17 an hour. I'm not buying it when people act like there are no jobs whatsoever.

In light of this new info I stand corrected, every job/internship I got in the past was because I didnt hustle - you guys are right. Moving to a new city recently with no connections I should have easily found a job!!

[AreJay711]

In light of this new info I stand corrected, every job/internship I got in the past was because I didnt hustle - you guys are right. Moving to a new city recently with no connections I should have easily found a job!!

I'm glad you've seen the light lol

[DoubleChecks]

In light of this new info I stand corrected, every job/internship I got in the past was because I didnt hustle - you guys are right. Moving to a new city recently with no connections I should have easily found a job!!

one could argue that your choice of locale may be a part of that hustle lol

[09042014]

I can't even find a retail job right now - fresh out of college kids with B.A.s are a dime a dozen, the degree is worthless. I took classes that taught me how to think like an economist and analyze international relations from different angles - which would be awesome if I could get a job as an economist or with the UN, but those arent happening. If I hadnt been planning on law school since shortly before I graduated I cant imagine what type of job I would find in the next few months to start my "career", and I have a decent resume compared to a lot of kids I graduated with.

It seems to me like all of the people saying t-14 or bust are putting in the fact that you can snag a 40k job like candy right now fresh out of school with a social science degree. Not with 10% unemployment. Yes, going 150K+ into debt at a T2/T3/T4 is risky and probably isnt the best idea, but if you can get a decent scholarship/ in state tuition to a good school (T1) and your alternative ISNT a cushy 50k job sitting behind a desk like people assume their are tons of, law school isnt as risky/bad idea as people make it out to be.

If you can't snag a job with a BA, you won't be able to be able to snag one with a JD. OCI makes getting a job easy, but if you don't get one there you gotta hustle. Which you can't do.

Ohhh you got me, I've been unemployed a few weeks = I can't "hustle", I'm doomed. Oh wait, youre a 1L on TLS, nvm

Why is being a 1L an insult when you are a 0L intent on being an 1L?

[Sandro]

I can't even find a retail job right now - fresh out of college kids with B.A.s are a dime a dozen, the degree is worthless. I took classes that taught me how to think like an economist and analyze international relations from different angles - which would be awesome if I could get a job as an economist or with the UN, but those arent happening. If I hadnt been planning on law school since shortly before I graduated I cant imagine what type of job I would find in the next few months to start my "career", and I have a decent resume compared to a lot of kids I graduated with.

It seems to me like all of the people saying t-14 or bust are putting in the fact that you can snag a 40k job like candy right now fresh out of school with a social science degree. Not with 10% unemployment. Yes, going 150K+ into debt at a T2/T3/T4 is risky and probably isnt the best idea, but if you can get a decent scholarship/ in state tuition to a good school (T1) and your alternative ISNT a cushy 50k job sitting behind a desk like people assume their are tons of, law school isnt as risky/bad idea as people make it out to be.

If you can't snag a job with a BA, you won't be able to be able to snag one with a JD. OCI makes getting a job easy, but if you don't get one there you gotta hustle. Which you can't do.

Ohhh you got me, I've been unemployed a few weeks = I can't "hustle", I'm doomed. Oh wait, youre a 1L on TLS, nvm

Why is being a 1L an insult when you are a 0L intent on being an 1L?

I would think you would know this, considering 1Ls know EVERYTHING ! You're joking, right ?

[09042014]

I would think you would know this, considering 1Ls know EVERYTHING ! You're joking, right ?

Why don't you explain it for me?

[Nicholasnickynic]

also wrote the DAT. You think law school is expensive? Dental school you're looking at 50k per year in tuition alone. Starting a dental practice is ridiculously expensive, and if you buy a practice off a retiring dentist you're inheriting a bunch of garbage equipment and overpriced good-will. If you rent a chair in a practice, you're paying huge overhead and basically making someone else a lot of money. Add to the fact you have 300k in debt (not many dental students get $$$$) and this is really not that attractive an option either....

You also say Dentistry is unstable. WTF?

My sister recently graduated dental school. She was about 300k in debt. HOWEVER, she works 32 hours a week and pulls down 100k. Starting a dental practice is expensive, BUT MOST PEOPLE DONT DO THAT right out of dental school. They get a job working cushy hours and around 100k (most of her friends are 80-120k with 30-50 hours).

Also, wtf is this about renting a chair in a practice? You just go work for some one else and pull down bank. If you eventually want a practice, buy one. If not, don't.


Also, dentristy has been relatively unaffected (relatively) by the recession. Dentists aren't really making less, at all, but many are afriad they will, so getting hired a little bit harder then it used to (ie rates straight out of dental school used to be 98-99%, but not anymore).

However, my main point: WORKS 32 HOURS A WEEK AND PULLS DOWN 100k. Please tell me a similar job? Oh yeah, and the salary will only go up.

IMO, dentistry is best profession re: stability, hours, income.

[PhillyFan09]

In light of this new info I stand corrected, every job/internship I got in the past was because I didnt hustle - you guys are right. Moving to a new city recently with no connections I should have easily found a job!!

I have not graduated from undergrad yet. I took time off to make sure law was what I really wanted and using craigslist alone I was able to get a few different legal assistant job offers. I got these after moving in with my mom to save $$ in a completely new city than I had grown up. Moving to a new city and not having any connections does not make it impossible to obtain employment. Stop making excuses for your lack of a job.

[DoubleChecks]

also wrote the DAT. You think law school is expensive? Dental school you're looking at 50k per year in tuition alone. Starting a dental practice is ridiculously expensive, and if you buy a practice off a retiring dentist you're inheriting a bunch of garbage equipment and overpriced good-will. If you rent a chair in a practice, you're paying huge overhead and basically making someone else a lot of money. Add to the fact you have 300k in debt (not many dental students get $$$$) and this is really not that attractive an option either....

You also say Dentistry is unstable. WTF?

My sister recently graduated dental school. She was about 300k in debt. HOWEVER, she works 32 hours a week and pulls down 100k. Starting a dental practice is expensive, BUT MOST PEOPLE DONT DO THAT right out of dental school. They get a job working cushy hours and around 100k (most of her friends are 80-120k with 30-50 hours).

Also, wtf is this about renting a chair in a practice? You just go work for some one else and pull down bank. If you eventually want a practice, buy one. If not, don't.


Also, dentristy has been relatively unaffected (relatively) by the recession. Dentists aren't really making less, at all, but many are afriad they will, so getting hired a little bit harder then it used to (ie rates straight out of dental school used to be 98-99%, but not anymore).

However, my main point: WORKS 32 HOURS A WEEK AND PULLS DOWN 100k. Please tell me a similar job? Oh yeah, and the salary will only go up.

IMO, dentistry is best profession re: stability, hours, income.

i agree

[HowdyYall]

In light of this new info I stand corrected, every job/internship I got in the past was because I didnt hustle - you guys are right. Moving to a new city recently with no connections I should have easily found a job!!

I have not graduated from undergrad yet. I took time off to make sure law was what I really wanted and using craigslist alone I was able to get a few different legal assistant job offers. I got these after moving in with my mom to save $$ in a completely new city than I had grown up. Moving to a new city and not having any connections does not make it impossible to obtain employment. Stop making excuses for your lack of a job.

american bootstrapism at its finest!

[Nicholasnickynic]

In light of this new info I stand corrected, every job/internship I got in the past was because I didnt hustle - you guys are right. Moving to a new city recently with no connections I should have easily found a job!!

I have not graduated from undergrad yet. I took time off to make sure law was what I really wanted and using craigslist alone I was able to get a few different legal assistant job offers. I got these after moving in with my mom to save $$ in a completely new city than I had grown up. Moving to a new city and not having any connections does not make it impossible to obtain employment. Stop making excuses for your lack of a job.

american bootstrapism at its finest!

I hate that bootstrap bullshit.

Anytime some fails in anyway, it is their fault. No such thing as outside factors.

[AreJay711]

In light of this new info I stand corrected, every job/internship I got in the past was because I didnt hustle - you guys are right. Moving to a new city recently with no connections I should have easily found a job!!

I have not graduated from undergrad yet. I took time off to make sure law was what I really wanted and using craigslist alone I was able to get a few different legal assistant job offers. I got these after moving in with my mom to save $$ in a completely new city than I had grown up. Moving to a new city and not having any connections does not make it impossible to obtain employment. Stop making excuses for your lack of a job.

american bootstrapism at its finest!

I hate that bootstrap bullshit.

Anytime some fails in anyway, it is their fault. No such thing as outside factors.

People with that attitude have likely never had to overcome financial challenges. What outside factors cannot be overcome?

[PhillyFan09]

In light of this new info I stand corrected, every job/internship I got in the past was because I didnt hustle - you guys are right. Moving to a new city recently with no connections I should have easily found a job!!

I have not graduated from undergrad yet. I took time off to make sure law was what I really wanted and using craigslist alone I was able to get a few different legal assistant job offers. I got these after moving in with my mom to save $$ in a completely new city than I had grown up. Moving to a new city and not having any connections does not make it impossible to obtain employment. Stop making excuses for your lack of a job.

american bootstrapism at its finest!

I hate that bootstrap bullshit.

Anytime some fails in anyway, it is their fault. No such thing as outside factors.

I never said outside factors do not exist. But this guy is saying "because of ITE I can't get a job", while people who are less qualified than him have jobs. At some point not being able to get ANY job is more about the individual than the economy.

[DoubleChecks]

of course outside factors are at play. but they are still usually only a variable. a lot of individuals think they've tried and worked as hard as they can...when by all means they havent. they dont see it. it is human nature, and if everyone was introspective and realistic enough to always know their own limits and potential...well, lets just say that is not how the world works.

that being said, sometimes even at the best of one's abilities, they still end up in a bad position.

[BrownBears09]

In light of this new info I stand corrected, every job/internship I got in the past was because I didnt hustle - you guys are right. Moving to a new city recently with no connections I should have easily found a job!!

I have not graduated from undergrad yet. I took time off to make sure law was what I really wanted and using craigslist alone I was able to get a few different legal assistant job offers. I got these after moving in with my mom to save $$ in a completely new city than I had grown up. Moving to a new city and not having any connections does not make it impossible to obtain employment. Stop making excuses for your lack of a job.

I stopped reading.

[Nicholasnickynic]

I agree with a lot of the pro-bootstrap comments- especially the part about people not working as hard as they can and then giving up and bitching about it- that drives me nuts. I am not suggesting that anytime someone fails, its outside factors.

However, employment, ITE, is a zero sum game. Some people are going to fail. And its not fair to blame it on them. Assuming everyone tried their absolute hardest, some people would still fail to get jobs- or at least jobs that allowed them to pay off debt/start a family.

I guess what bugs me is the that I feel like a lot bootstrap crap goes over the line. Hard work alone is never enough; there is always a degree of luck.

For instance, I'm doing pretty well at a t1 right now, and damn proud of it: I worked harder than I ever had in my life. However, I know I'm also extremely lucky. I'm horrible at math. If had had to take the lsat in 1990 or earlier, I wouldn't have been able to get into a decent school. That's just pure luck that they removed the math portion.

For every successful person there are a million examples of luck like this. It just drives me nuts when people act like the people who are ahead deserve to be ahead and the people behind deserve to be behind. Its much more complicated than that.

I just hate the whole concept of bootstrap, and what it implies.

[daesonesb]

You are seriously making a mistake if you are going to law school just to make money. If all you care about is money, go to med school. I know doctors, the hours are BETTER than they are for partners at firms in this economy. If a doctor is off call and not working, they don't take any work home with them. Plus, most docs are off work at 5 or 6 pm on non call days. Also, a majority of a doctor's call is spent asleep, or doing things with kids. Most of the calls they do get can be dealt with by giving instructions to a nurse. If you are scared of starting your own practice (who does that?) then join a group of practicing doctors. Sure they take a fee, but you'll be making 6 figures even in the present economy. If you are worried about being in a small practice, there are plenty of large offices, who employ 10's or hundreds of docs in different specialties. The economies of scale for these groups often means that their doctors end up paying less in overhead.

You are trying to see downside in other professions, but in this economy law is NOT the answer for money making. Do it because you've got passion, and really enjoy it. Otherwise, please don't. You can try as hard as you want, but I saw far too many really smart people last semester study 12 hours a day for 2 months before exams, and end up below median. It really isn't in your control, and the I'LL BE THE EXCEPTION! attitude is naive.

[romothesavior]

You are seriously making a mistake if you are going to law school just to make money. If all you care about is money, go to med school. I know doctors, the hours are BETTER than they are for partners at firms in this economy. If a doctor is off call and not working, they don't take any work home with them. Plus, most docs are off work at 5 or 6 pm on non call days. Also, a majority of a doctor's call is spent asleep, or doing things with kids. Most of the calls they do get can be dealt with by giving instructions to a nurse. If you are scared of starting your own practice (who does that?) then join a group of practicing doctors. Sure they take a fee, but you'll be making 6 figures even in the present economy. If you are worried about being in a small practice, there are plenty of large offices, who employ 10's or hundreds of docs in different specialties. The economies of scale for these groups often means that their doctors end up paying less in overhead.

You are trying to see downside in other professions, but in this economy law is NOT the answer for money making. Do it because you've got passion, and really enjoy it. Otherwise, please don't. You can try as hard as you want, but I saw far too many really smart people last semester study 12 hours a day for 2 months before exams, and end up below median. It really isn't in your control, and the I'LL BE THE EXCEPTION! attitude is naive.

Fantastic post. OP, you'd be wise to read this closely. Your reasons for not following the other career paths are poor, and your reasons for wanting law are even worse.

[JazzOne]

You are seriously making a mistake if you are going to law school just to make money. If all you care about is money, go to med school. I know doctors, the hours are BETTER than they are for partners at firms in this economy. If a doctor is off call and not working, they don't take any work home with them. Plus, most docs are off work at 5 or 6 pm on non call days. Also, a majority of a doctor's call is spent asleep, or doing things with kids. Most of the calls they do get can be dealt with by giving instructions to a nurse. If you are scared of starting your own practice (who does that?) then join a group of practicing doctors. Sure they take a fee, but you'll be making 6 figures even in the present economy. If you are worried about being in a small practice, there are plenty of large offices, who employ 10's or hundreds of docs in different specialties. The economies of scale for these groups often means that their doctors end up paying less in overhead.

You are trying to see downside in other professions, but in this economy law is NOT the answer for money making. Do it because you've got passion, and really enjoy it. Otherwise, please don't. You can try as hard as you want, but I saw far too many really smart people last semester study 12 hours a day for 2 months before exams, and end up below median. It really isn't in your control, and the I'LL BE THE EXCEPTION! attitude is naive.

Fantastic post. OP, you'd be wise to read this closely. Your reasons for not following the other career paths are poor, and your reasons for wanting law are even worse.

As much as I don't want to agree with this, I think it's correct.