Berkeley vs. Columbia* Forum

[Lawl Shcool]

If you go to Berkeley and want a V5 biglaw job, make sure you're sociable and get good grades (like, all Hs, which is only the equivalent of top 20-30% of the class). Is it different anywhere else with the exception of Harvard and Yale?

FTFY I'm a 1L who goes to a different school and feel like speculating

FTFY

[Veyron]

If you go to Berkeley and want a V5 biglaw job, make sure you're sociable and get good grades (like, all Hs, which is only the equivalent of top 20-30% of the class). Is it different anywhere else with the exception of Harvard and Yale?

FTFY I'm a 1L who goes to a different school and feel like speculating

FTFY

Completely justifiable criticism but isn't it a bit outrageous to say that top 1/3 at B has a decent shot at a V5 (skadden excepted perhaps) or is B doing significantly better than the world at large gives it credit for?

[BruceWayne]

Completely justifiable criticism but isn't it a bit outrageous to say that top 1/3 at B has a decent shot at a V5 (skadden excepted perhaps) or is B doing significantly better than the world at large gives it credit for?

Boalt is no different from any of it's peers (MVP). The world at large (ie TLS and auotadmit) doesn't seem to realize that a huge proportion of the school isn't interested in "V5" jobs. Why the hell would they be? Vault 5 jobs are all NYC biglaw firms. People go to Boalt because they want to work in an elite California firm (none of which are in the "vault 5": Munger, Irell, Gibson Dunn, Keker etc.) or they want to work in PI. By the time you take away the huge chunk of people at Boalt who want one of those 2 things, there aren't a lot of students trying to work V5.

[Knock]

What do you guys think about Boalt vs. Michigan w/ $67,500?

[BruceWayne]

What do you guys think about Boalt vs. Michigan w/ $67,500?

If you want to work in California and you have strong ties going to Michigan won't hurt you at all. In other words, I'd go to Michigan in that scenario. Michigan seems to be one of the strongest non HYS Boalt schools for California.

[3ThrowAway99]

What do you guys think about Boalt vs. Michigan w/ $67,500?

I think Michigan for sure without other considerations. However, if you are in CA now and want to stay there, moving to MI would be a big and perhaps inconvenient change. I suspect you would also have decidedly better CA employment prospects coming out of Berkeley than coming out of Michigan, so in your case I'm thinking Berkeley, unless you are particularly debt averse.

Re: original comparison, from what I understand Berkeley is probably at least as likely to get you a good job in CA as Columbia, and if you like it in CA I think choosing Berkeley over Columbia is defensible. Then again, it is Columbia, and I would make sure you want to stay in CA. You could still quite possibly land an east coast or international job out of Berkeley if you wanted to move around, but in terms of mobility, getting a west coast (or international) job out of Columbia I think is def easier than getting an east coast (or international) job out of Berkeley.

[Kronk]

What do you guys think about Boalt vs. Michigan w/ $67,500?

I think it depends on what kind of work you want to do. Michigan's LRAP isn't as bad as UVa's or Chicago's, but if you want to do government or PI work you will probably still end up paying less of your loans at Berkeley. If you want to go the corporate route I would say Michigan.

[Veyron]

Completely justifiable criticism but isn't it a bit outrageous to say that top 1/3 at B has a decent shot at a V5 (skadden excepted perhaps) or is B doing significantly better than the world at large gives it credit for?

Boalt is no different from any of it's peers (MVP). The world at large (ie TLS and auotadmit) doesn't seem to realize that a huge proportion of the school isn't interested in "V5" jobs. Why the hell would they be? Vault 5 jobs are all NYC biglaw firms. People go to Boalt because they want to work in an elite California firm (none of which are in the "vault 5": Munger, Irell, Gibson Dunn, Keker etc.) or they want to work in PI. By the time you take away the huge chunk of people at Boalt who want one of those 2 things, there aren't a lot of students trying to work V5.

Fine, swap the firms you named for V5, it still seems like a bit of a stretch.

[BruceWayne]

Completely justifiable criticism but isn't it a bit outrageous to say that top 1/3 at B has a decent shot at a V5 (skadden excepted perhaps) or is B doing significantly better than the world at large gives it credit for?

Boalt is no different from any of it's peers (MVP). The world at large (ie TLS and auotadmit) doesn't seem to realize that a huge proportion of the school isn't interested in "V5" jobs. Why the hell would they be? Vault 5 jobs are all NYC biglaw firms. People go to Boalt because they want to work in an elite California firm (none of which are in the "vault 5": Munger, Irell, Gibson Dunn, Keker etc.) or they want to work in PI. By the time you take away the huge chunk of people at Boalt who want one of those 2 things, there aren't a lot of students trying to work V5.

Fine, swap the firms you named for V5, it still seems like a bit of a stretch.

What are you talking about? When you switch the Vault 5 for the firms I just named Boalt dominates all schools except HYS. It isn't a stretch in the slightest when people stop defining successful placement by how many students end up working in big NYC firms.

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[Kronk]

Orphan of the ivy league gotcha down, Veyron?

[Veyron]

Completely justifiable criticism but isn't it a bit outrageous to say that top 1/3 at B has a decent shot at a V5 (skadden excepted perhaps) or is B doing significantly better than the world at large gives it credit for?

Boalt is no different from any of it's peers (MVP). The world at large (ie TLS and auotadmit) doesn't seem to realize that a huge proportion of the school isn't interested in "V5" jobs. Why the hell would they be? Vault 5 jobs are all NYC biglaw firms. People go to Boalt because they want to work in an elite California firm (none of which are in the "vault 5": Munger, Irell, Gibson Dunn, Keker etc.) or they want to work in PI. By the time you take away the huge chunk of people at Boalt who want one of those 2 things, there aren't a lot of students trying to work V5.

Fine, swap the firms you named for V5, it still seems like a bit of a stretch.

What are you talking about? When you switch the Vault 5 for the firms I just named Boalt dominates all schools except HYS. It isn't a stretch in the slightest when people stop defining successful placement by how many students end up working in big NYC firms.

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I didn't say that B places "poorly" in those firrms, just that someone sitting at 1/3 is going to have difficulty landing one. Please try to follow along.

[Veyron]

Orphan of the ivy league gotcha down, Veyron?

Yes, the bitterness of being confused for someone who attends Penn State has worked its way into my soul.

[20160810]

Completely justifiable criticism but isn't it a bit outrageous to say that top 1/3 at B has a decent shot at a V5 (skadden excepted perhaps) or is B doing significantly better than the world at large gives it credit for?

Boalt is no different from any of it's peers (MVP). The world at large (ie TLS and auotadmit) doesn't seem to realize that a huge proportion of the school isn't interested in "V5" jobs. Why the hell would they be? Vault 5 jobs are all NYC biglaw firms. People go to Boalt because they want to work in an elite California firm (none of which are in the "vault 5": Munger, Irell, Gibson Dunn, Keker etc.) or they want to work in PI. By the time you take away the huge chunk of people at Boalt who want one of those 2 things, there aren't a lot of students trying to work V5.

This.

Speaking as a CA law student here, nobody talks about V5 firms because they aren't the big ones HERE. Not everyone is interested in living in NYC, shocking as that might be.

[20160810]

Orphan of the ivy league gotcha down, Veyron?

Yes, the bitterness of being confused for someone who attends Penn State has worked its way into my soul.

Ignore the haters. Penn stands with Berkeley, UCLA and UVA as one of the finest public universities in the world, and you know it!

[r6_philly]

Orphan of the ivy league gotcha down, Veyron?

Yes, the bitterness of being confused for someone who attends Penn State has worked its way into my soul.

Ignore the haters. Penn stands with Berkeley, UCLA and UVA as one of the finest public universities in the world, and you know it!

No you are wrong, in terms of endowment, it is more on par with the likes of fine public universities such as Michigan and University of Chicago!

[r6_philly]

Speaking as a CA law student here, nobody talks about V5 firms because they aren't the big ones HERE. Not everyone is interested in living in NYC, shocking as that might be.

So what is a definitive list for CA employment? Is there ranking/data for this?

[Veyron]

Orphan of the ivy league gotcha down, Veyron?

Yes, the bitterness of being confused for someone who attends Penn State has worked its way into my soul.

Ignore the haters. Penn stands with Berkeley, UCLA and UVA as one of the finest public universities in the world, and you know it!

No you are wrong, in terms of endowment, it is more on par with the likes of fine public universities such as Michigan and University of Chicago!

I thought Chicago was a community college?

[Knottsingham]

Columbia.

[kipp916]

Dude, veyron is such an elitist douchebag. Shut your mouth, punk.

[Curry]

Dude, veyron is such an elitist douchebag. Shut your mouth, punk.

I'm glad you registered to make this one, astute point.

[kipp916]

I registered to search and read, didn't intend on writing any replies. But how could I resist? Have you read this guy's posts?

I have the same decision to make: Berkeley or Columbia. I plan on living in the Bay Area when I'm older, so I think that heavily sways the balance. I spoke with a successful attorney in LA recently, and he said that he'll read USC and UCLA resumes long before Harvard or Yale. For one, his firm hired and fired an idiot from Harvard, apparently. But also, they know the schools. They know the professors and the administrators, and so they can better understand and identify with the student by looking at a transcript.

He basically said that if you know what region you want to practice, go to the best law school in the region. That said, of course you can get a job anywhere if you attended a T-10 school. But these connections you make in the region of your law school are important. Practicing law and getting ahead, like most careers, is all about who you know.

[ahduth]

I spoke with a successful attorney in LA recently, and he said that he'll read USC and UCLA resumes long before Harvard or Yale.

I find this difficult to believe. USC and Yale?

But the point about establishing connections in the region where you want to work is well taken. If I could drum up some scholarship money at Boalt, I can think of worse things than being "trapped" in California because I chose them instead of NYU/Columbia.

[whitman]

I'm curious what percentage of TLS posters will lose their biglaw hard-ons when they realize (1.) that $160,000 isn't actually that much money and (2.) how much working 80 hours a week actually sucks.

Yeah, particularly in New York City. 160k in NYC is like a 80k-90k salary elsewhere. In California, you can get 45 hr / wk government jobs that pay that much.

Government jobs are hiring? I think you're a confused 1L.

Your hours depend on your practice group. If you do M&A work, sure, it's going to be unpredictable and long. But other transactional groups have steadier hours. Also, if you work biglaw in ANY city, you're going to be working similar hours.

A lot of midlaw firms will work you at similar hours but pay you less. A lot of PI jobs require long hours for a fraction of the pay.

Also NY averages between 2000-2100 billable hours, more so the first. I don't know where you people got the idea that they are required to bill 2400+ hours. Not every NY firm is like Cravath.

If you want good hours and biglaw, look at Texas, not California.

Read the employment board. There are several posters that do NYC biglaw and will confirm that the hours are worse at almost every firm than biglaw in other cities (except maybe DC). Sure, biglaw's no picnic anywhere, but if you think you're making a career at the firm billing 2000-2100 hours in NYC, you're stoned.

SBL, I'm curious. Where do you go to school, and what kind of law career are you entering?

[jtemp320]

This thread is relevant to my interests AKA is the debate that is dominating my life right now. (throw in NYU as under consideration as well). My biggest problem is I am not sure what kind of law I want to do (but clerking is def a dream of mine) and I love California and would miss it a lot but find the idea of school in NY exciting and would love to work in DC (but know that is a very tough market to crack). Berkeley's QOL is appealing and other then named scholarships none of us have heard from these schools on $ yet (at least I havent).

Anyway +1 to this thread and good luck to those like me making these kind of tough decisions.

[bilbobaggins]

This thread is relevant to my interests AKA is the debate that is dominating my life right now. (throw in NYU as under consideration as well). My biggest problem is I am not sure what kind of law I want to do (but clerking is def a dream of mine) and I love California and would miss it a lot but find the idea of school in NY exciting and would love to work in DC (but know that is a very tough market to crack). Berkeley's QOL is appealing and other then named scholarships none of us have heard from these schools on $ yet (at least I havent).

Anyway +1 to this thread and good luck to those like me making these kind of tough decisions.

I know a fair amount of 2Ls and 3Ls working in DC this summer/after school. Boalt continues to place well in this market.

Veyron, what you believe and what's actually happening among the top third of Boalt students are two very different things.