Army OCS or Law School? Forum

[Rocky Estoppel]

Fly Navy Jets,

Have you mentioned to OP the lengthy ADSO (service obligation) incurred by Navy pilots? Sure, it sounds cool but you are also committing to something until your mid-30s.

Army OCS is a great way to get all the experience of serving as an officer and leader in a comparatively short amount of time. 3 years to the day after you take you oath at Ft. Benning, you can leave active duty and do great things as a civilian (or stay as an officer if you choose).

True. Pilots incur a commitment of 8 years from the day they get winged. NFO's incur 6. By the time you get your wings (in jets, not sure about maritime or helos), they Navy will have spent several million dollars training you. You become a national asset (and feel really special).

What are the age restrictions for pilots?

[casper13]

Not a lot of women in Afghanistan

Thats a lie, there are tons of humping going on out here. Im in afghaninstan right now and trust me dont worry about the women out here, lots of hot contracters to look at in the chow hall, and AF medics.

M-16s are badass! Back in garrison you'll get to hold one like every 6 months or so!

M-4's are a lot more fun and handle so much better than M-16's. I loved having an 249 during the invasion in 03 but now love the compactness of my M-4 with the way the threat levels and combat is now here in afghan.


To the OP, good luck man and hope to be serving next to you as I have 6 more years of this stuff left, although im in the reserves now I still love the army.

[WhyMista]

Not a lot of women in Afghanistan

Thats a lie, there are tons of humping going on out here. Im in afghaninstan right now and trust me dont worry about the women out here, lots of hot contracters to look at in the chow hall, and AF medics.

M-16s are badass! Back in garrison you'll get to hold one like every 6 months or so!

M-4's are a lot more fun and handle so much better than M-16's. I loved having an 249 during the invasion in 03 but now love the compactness of my M-4 with the way the threat levels and combat is now here in afghan.


To the OP, good luck man and hope to be serving next to you as I have 6 more years of this stuff left, although im in the reserves now I still love the army.

What are you smoking lol. The only benefit to the m4 is the weight reduction. It is less reliable, doesn't have a buttstock to use when less than lethal force is needed for those unruly hadjis and is not as accurate near its max effective range. I'll take my M16a4 anyday. However it was cool that you can easily hold an m4 out with one hand.

I loved the saw but I will never forget the one time we were on patrol and some Marine had his condition 1 for no reason, tripped and lost control and we all waited for it to start firing. Luckily it didn't.

I say talk to all the branches OSO and then decide. Of course I say go Marine but I'm biased.

[Voodoo94]

The problem is that if I pursue commissioning and get rejected, I would be somewhat screwed. I have been laid off for some time and would have to wait until next year to start LS while trying to scramble for another job. I do have about 40K saved up from previous employemnt though, so it's not like I'd be out on the street turning tricks.

So the question is, does it make more sense to pursue LS or OCS? The possibility of being rejected seems very real what with my crap GPA (albeit in a desirable major and with upward trend), but I know I'll be wondering "what if" if I choose law school, especially if I'm disappointed with my employment opportunities in 3 years while in $75k of debt. Obviously this is something only I can decide, but there seems to be a lot of knowledge in this thread and any thoughts would be appreciated.

Right now, Army OCS fluctuates between a 60-80% selection rate for qualified civilian applicants (FYI, the selection rate hovered around 100% from 2003 till very recently).

You are young and have a quality degree - the target demographic for OCS. I would assess your selection odds as better than average.

Via OCS, you now have the ability to select your branch (e.g. the Corps of Engineers). As an Engineer grad, you can submit a packet for the Corps of Engineers in week 3 of OCS - from what I see, there is a fairly high selection rate from this process.

I would encourage you to pursue Army OCS. The Army is on track to commission around 1,200 civilians via OCS next year (in addition to ~500 current soldiers). As stated, you have very good odds of getting selected. The Navy, however, is a whole different story. I hear anecdotal reports of single digit selection rates.

Good Luck and Go OCS!

http://www.armyocs.com

[Voodoo94]

So the question is, does it make more sense to pursue LS or OCS? The possibility of being rejected seems very real what with my crap GPA (albeit in a desirable major and with upward trend), but I know I'll be wondering "what if" if I choose law school, especially if I'm disappointed with my employment opportunities in 3 years while in $75k of debt. Obviously this is something only I can decide, but there seems to be a lot of knowledge in this thread and any thoughts would be appreciated.

It is important to remember that graduation from Army OCS incurs only a 3 year service obligation. This clock starts on the day of your OCS graduation. Basically, your 3 years will look like: 1) initial officer training; 2) integration with your unit; 3) an overseas deployment; 4) return from deployment; and 5) transition back to civilian life.

All told, with Basic Training, OCS and your 3 year service commitment, you are looking at around 3 years and 23 weeks in uniform. By using terminal/transitional leave, many can shave 1.5 - 2 months off the back end by using accumulated leave to depart the Army early.

You will be fully vested with the new GI Bill following your service. The benefits are incredibly generous. For this reason alone, you should give OCS a try before law school - 1) you can go to grad school tuition free at many schools (e.g. Michigan Law and Dartmouth MBA); 2) you will have recognized and acknowledged leadership/management skills as an Army officer.

Even if the "big law" lottery doesn't work out, you can leverage your experience and Veterans preference for a range of Federal, civilian jobs. With Vet preference, you are a lock for a number of competitive Federal hiring programs like Presidential Management Fellows Program or the GAO Professional Development Program (PDP).

[OG Loc]

Thanks for the info Voodoo, you're the man. I am indeed going to do more research on the Army. I did not know the Army OCS selection rate was that high - seems kind of ironic to me, as I consider the burden of an Army (or Marine) officer to be far greater than that of a USN or USAF officer. Leading 18 year old kids into combat is no joke, and certainly not a profession well suited for 80% of people with a college degree.

And those benefits are pretty amazing - I've even considered enlisting as a backup plan just to get the GI Bill benefits (and to get to sail around the world).

[Voodoo94]

Thanks for the info Voodoo, you're the man. I am indeed going to do more research on the Army. I did not know the Army OCS selection rate was that high - seems kind of ironic to me, as I consider the burden of an Army (or Marine) officer to be far greater than that of a USN or USAF officer. Leading 18 year old kids into combat is no joke, and certainly not a profession well suited for 80% of people with a college degree.

And those benefits are pretty amazing - I've even considered enlisting as a backup plan just to get the GI Bill benefits (and to get to sail around the world).

DO NOT ENLIST. And for God's sake, whatever you do, DO NOT tell a recruiter you are considering that as a fall back option. I spent time on recruiting duty (before law/grad school). Recruiters are trained sales people. Once you tell them you would consider a regular enlistment, they have identified your "dominant buying motive" as educational benefits - these benefits are the same for officers and enlisted. An OCS packet requires significantly more work on the part of a recruiter and his station commander. Knowing that they can potentially "wear you down" to enlist (which saves them time and effort), they will do so.

If you contact a recruiter and appear before a recruiting battalion OCS board (3 officers), you must project an air of confidence and a burning desire to be a U.S. Army officer. Even if you internally would consider enlisting, NEVER show that hand. Ever. Your "poker face" has to be "OCS or bust." Almost like buying a car.

I hope this helps. It is unfortunate, but the Army is the only service that has its regular enlisted recruiters recruit for officer candidates. As you can gather, this is a deeply flawed system that places people who are not officers, and likely never attended college, in the position of manipulating potential officer candidates. This system is riddled with conflicts of interest. Recruiters are under relentless pressure to make "mission" (usually 2 enlistment contracts a month). There is a huge temptation to get someone into a regular enlistment (which can be done in as little as 48-72 hours - start to finish) instead of an OCS contract (which could take 30-60 days).

Good luck.

http://www.armyocs.com

[Ambitious]

Test on to Army Paralegal positions through USAJobs.

Then go to law school with that as your background.

Incredible experience, decent pay, and if not, you can still land a gig in the legal profession.

[Voodoo94]

Test on to Army Paralegal positions through USAJobs.

Then go to law school with that as your background.

Incredible experience, decent pay, and if not, you can still land a gig in the legal profession.

Why should someone with a college degree enlist as a 27D (paralegal specialist)? An 18 year old HS graduate can enlist for that MOS. Your advise makes. no. sense.

A few questions "know it all":

Can a 27D get a 3 year contract like a 09S OCS contract?

What is the pay difference between an O-1 (who will make O-2 at 18 mos.) and an E-4?

What about the fact that a single E-4 will be living in the barracks (aka. dorm) when a single officer gets a tax-free housing allowance for their own apartment?

Will experience as enlisted paralegal provide you with the demonstrated leadership and management experiences envied by corporate (non-law) and government employers?

Bottom Line: Your advice sucks and no college grad/prospective law student should heed it.

Are you an enlisted recruiter? I ask because your "pitch" sounds an awful lot like the nonsense many of them spout to con college grads into enlisting.

http://www.armyocs.com

[OG Loc]

Thanks for the info Voodoo, you're the man. I am indeed going to do more research on the Army. I did not know the Army OCS selection rate was that high - seems kind of ironic to me, as I consider the burden of an Army (or Marine) officer to be far greater than that of a USN or USAF officer. Leading 18 year old kids into combat is no joke, and certainly not a profession well suited for 80% of people with a college degree.

And those benefits are pretty amazing - I've even considered enlisting as a backup plan just to get the GI Bill benefits (and to get to sail around the world).

DO NOT ENLIST. And for God's sake, whatever you do, DO NOT tell a recruiter you are considering that as a fall back option. I spent time on recruiting duty (before law/grad school). Recruiters are trained sales people. Once you tell them you would consider a regular enlistment, they have identified your "dominant buying motive" as educational benefits - these benefits are the same for officers and enlisted. An OCS packet requires significantly more work on the part of a recruiter and his station commander. Knowing that they can potentially "wear you down" to enlist (which saves them time and effort), they will do so.

If you contact a recruiter and appear before a recruiting battalion OCS board (3 officers), you must project an air of confidence and a burning desire to be a U.S. Army officer. Even if you internally would consider enlisting, NEVER show that hand. Ever. Your "poker face" has to be "OCS or bust." Almost like buying a car.

I hope this helps. It is unfortunate, but the Army is the only service that has its regular enlisted recruiters recruit for officer candidates. As you can gather, this is a deeply flawed system that places people who are not officers, and likely never attended college, in the position of manipulating potential officer candidates. This system is riddled with conflicts of interest. Recruiters are under relentless pressure to make "mission" (usually 2 enlistment contracts a month). There is a huge temptation to get someone into a regular enlistment (which can be done in as little as 48-72 hours - start to finish) instead of an OCS contract (which could take 30-60 days).

Good luck.

http://www.armyocs.com

Makes sense, it wasn't a particularly serious consideration (and with all due respect to enlisted soldiers, I would never consider enlisting in the Army - I meant the Navy). I was just agreeing that the GI Bill is great.

[Voodoo94]

Makes sense, it wasn't a particularly serious consideration (and with all due respect to enlisted soldiers, I would never consider enlisting in the Army - I meant the Navy). I was just agreeing that the GI Bill is great.

I would honestly rather serve as an Army enlisted person than a Navy one. The Navy maintains a much more rigid rank hierarchy/divide than the Army - especially on its ships.

[WhyMista]

Makes sense, it wasn't a particularly serious consideration (and with all due respect to enlisted soldiers, I would never consider enlisting in the Army - I meant the Navy). I was just agreeing that the GI Bill is great.

I would honestly rather serve as an Army enlisted person than a Navy one. The Navy maintains a much more rigid rank hierarchy/divide than the Army - especially on its ships.

Thats the problem with the Army they as a whole lack discipline and rank structure which is essential to making military life military.

I will never for the life of me understand how some E3 can call a SFC Sgt and not get lit the fuck up. That would never fly in the Marines.

Back OT don't enlist unless thats what you want to do. I will say that Marine OCS is a lot harder and does have a higher drop out rate, not to mention then you have TBS, however if you don't give up mentally anything is possible. See if the local OSO can let you tour a local reserve unit. Back when I was accepted and then declined the NROTC they were letting us talk to local O's if we wanted to so we could get a better understanding.

[Patriot1208]

Ya, do not enlist with a degree. Yes, Marine OCS is tough, but if you put your mind to it you can do it. And if you are really worried about how tough it is, then go to another branch.

[JOThompson]

Think carefully before you go down the rigorous Marine OCS road as injury and other setbacks are very possible. I have a buddy who has attempted OCS twice and been dropped each time due to stress fractures. The body of the typical candidate is broken down faster than it can regenerate in the later weeks. If you face a similar injury, you'll be automatically dropped, regardless of how motivated you are. Don't get me wrong, being an officer of Marines is a fine calling, but not everyone is suited to it (I wasn't).

[SuperGenius]

OP, I was the Navy's Officer Programs Officer in AZ and NM for about 3 years. During that time, I sent over 100 candidates to OCS. As others have stated, make damn sure you want to be a military officer FIRST. If you do, then (AND ONLY THEN) figure out what designator (MOS to other branches) you'd most enjoy. Please don't reverse those priorities. My first question to applicants (and we had a ton of them) was always "why"? If the answer didn't include any form of the word "leadership", we knew that we had a LOT of explaining to do...

[Doritos]

Thanks for the info Voodoo, you're the man. I am indeed going to do more research on the Army. I did not know the Army OCS selection rate was that high - seems kind of ironic to me, as I consider the burden of an Army (or Marine) officer to be far greater than that of a USN or USAF officer. Leading 18 year old kids into combat is no joke, and certainly not a profession well suited for 80% of people with a college degree.

And those benefits are pretty amazing - I've even considered enlisting as a backup plan just to get the GI Bill benefits (and to get to sail around the world).

DO NOT ENLIST. And for God's sake, whatever you do, DO NOT tell a recruiter you are considering that as a fall back option. I spent time on recruiting duty (before law/grad school). Recruiters are trained sales people. Once you tell them you would consider a regular enlistment, they have identified your "dominant buying motive" as educational benefits - these benefits are the same for officers and enlisted. An OCS packet requires significantly more work on the part of a recruiter and his station commander. Knowing that they can potentially "wear you down" to enlist (which saves them time and effort), they will do so.

If you contact a recruiter and appear before a recruiting battalion OCS board (3 officers), you must project an air of confidence and a burning desire to be a U.S. Army officer. Even if you internally would consider enlisting, NEVER show that hand. Ever. Your "poker face" has to be "OCS or bust." Almost like buying a car.

I hope this helps. It is unfortunate, but the Army is the only service that has its regular enlisted recruiters recruit for officer candidates. As you can gather, this is a deeply flawed system that places people who are not officers, and likely never attended college, in the position of manipulating potential officer candidates. This system is riddled with conflicts of interest. Recruiters are under relentless pressure to make "mission" (usually 2 enlistment contracts a month). There is a huge temptation to get someone into a regular enlistment (which can be done in as little as 48-72 hours - start to finish) instead of an OCS contract (which could take 30-60 days).

Good luck.

http://www.armyocs.com

I am sorry for bumping an old thread but I want to give my experience here for anyone down the line that does a search and ends up here. I was a signature away from going down the Army OCS path and I must say that my experience was the polar opposite of what Voodoo described. I am not saying Voodoo is wrong but my personal experience was completely different. My recruiter and all the other recruiters there told me over and over not to enlist but to do OCS. I was leaning toward enlisting (had an MOS i was really interested in) but they kept harping on how much better OCS is and how I would be so much happier in the long run if I did OCS over enlisting. So maybe it varies on the recruiter?

[Voodoo94]

Doritos,

What area of the country were you processing from? I'm curious. Your story is heartening. My personal experience in Recruiting Command, and what I hear every day on armyocs.com, suggests that it is a distinct minority of enlisted recruiters who will actually encourage an applicant to pursue OCS. Your story encourages me that some out there "get it."

It sounds like your decision not to join the Army is the Officer Corps' loss. I wish you all the best in your career and thank you for taking the time to look into Army opportunities as a commissioned officer.

http://www.armyocs.com