Meeting with a friend going to a TTTT- want ADVICE Forum

[lostjake]

FWIW I talked a friend of mine into not going into getting a full time MBA.

Well done sir!! I had almost all but forgotten the MBA option. You're friend will certainly owe you big time for this great advice!!

You are a true friend!

I'm guessing sarcasm?

If what you said to your friend was "go get a job where they'll pay for you to get an executive MBA instead" then you just saved your friend upwards of $200,000-300,000 depending on what his/her salary was to begin with. So yes, you are a true friend.

Oh yes, I meant every word of it. I can't help opening up the Los Angeles want adds and looking at the thousands of great paying opportunities for kids with MBA's. Plus, it doesn't matter where you get your MBA from either, so it truly is a win win situation. I'm calling U of Phoenix on-line today!! You'd be wise to follow son.

Now I'm just confused...

[Regionality]

Now I'm just confused...

Me too, I have no idea what he's talking about....are those the arches from central park in your avatar?

[Aberzombie1892]

I think what some people are missing is that a law degree will generally earn you more over your lifetime than not getting one.

I understand that people on tls.com focus on the short term idea of $100K. However, not many law graduates will make this much.

For example:

A kid majors in a useless undergrad (humanities/liberal arts/etc.). He/she decides to go to law school because he/she realized that they messed up by choosing a useless major. If they get out and make $40K-$50K, they would still be making more than they would had they not attended school. True they will go into debt and miss out on three years, but what would they have been doing for three years? S***. Therefore, it is in their best interests to go back to school because otherwise they would be making around $20K (if that).

To echo what Matties said, T3/T4 people can always be successful. My immediate boss and my overall boss both went to T3 programs and they are working in-house. In fact, they are the only attorneys working here. My overall boss even went to a T3 out of state. For the record, they both make over $100K (in not even a high cost of living market either).

The point is that it's not impossible to do anything from anywhere. True, the probablity is low for "Big Law." However most people burn out from that in less than 3 years, so it's really not worth talking about. The key is to understand the various avenues to get what you want. Individuals who attend T3/T4 generally had more humble beginnings so they did not have the time/money to practice the LSAT (practice and spend like $5,000 on an LSAT program) like they most T1 students have.

Would a recommend someone attend a $40,000 a year T3/T4? No. However, it is not the end of their lives either; many of them will be more successful than you in 10 years ("you" meaning anyone).

[Mr. Matlock]

Yeah...matthies is taking the other side of the coin for a rare second and for some reason people are licking his balls/her vajajay for it.

No, they just realize he's lived through all of this and knows of what he speaks. They realize 0L posters like you are likely to re-hashing the shit from other peoples ass and call it the truth. You think you know so much yet are destined to find out in 3 years that you really didn't know shit.

HTH

Yeah, or that we know someone who went to New York Law School, graduated 3 years ago, and are still making the same salary at the Legal Aid job that took them six months to get and are still $180k in debt and pretty miserable. But nice try asshole.

Well done son! An anecdotal situation. Brilliant!!! You have drank from the TLS Kool-Aid fountain, and found that it tasted good.

[bilbobaggins]

Another way to look at this:

How would you feel if a buddy of yours who is about go to to Yale came over to hang out. You got to talking about law school and asked him what he thought of WUSTL. When asked, he responds in a polite, but disparaging manner, talking about your slim chances at Big Law, etc. etc.

What would your thoughts be on this conversation? How would it make you feel about your "friend?"

[lostjake]

Tori from Japan

[Regionality]

Yeah...matthies is taking the other side of the coin for a rare second and for some reason people are licking his balls/her vajajay for it.

No, they just realize he's lived through all of this and knows of what he speaks. They realize 0L posters like you are likely to re-hashing the shit from other peoples ass and call it the truth. You think you know so much yet are destined to find out in 3 years that you really didn't know shit.

HTH

Yeah, or that we know someone who went to New York Law School, graduated 3 years ago, and are still making the same salary at the Legal Aid job that took them six months to get and are still $180k in debt and pretty miserable. But nice try asshole.

Well done son! An anecdotal situation. Brilliant!!! You have drank from the TLS Kool-Aid fountain, and found that it tasted good.

Stop being a dick on my thread. Either be nice or go away, I hate this kind of shit on TLS.

[bk1]

It's a tricky situation. I have people tell me they or someone they know is attending John Marshall all the time and have gotten pretty good at avoiding a discussion of the school's reputation. One girl threw me for a loop recently when she told me her cousin was attending JMU. After a friendly, non-elitist reply, the girl asked flat out asked me, "That's one of the best schools, right?" I had no idea what to say. The best I could come up with was "I think it's generally pretty respected in Chicago."

JMU is a perfect example of the school he's going to. DePaul Chicago, no money, is a perfect example of the school he chose not to go to....(whether those are the real schools I shan't say, but let's use them as starting point for discussion)

In this example, is DePaul really 60k better than JMU? Of course there are probably strings on the 20k/year, but it still seems like it might be hard to justify this.

[Regionality]

Another way to look at this:

How would you feel if a buddy of yours who is about go to to Yale came over to hang out. You got to talking about law school and asked him what he thought of WUSTL. When asked, he responds in a polite, but disparaging manner, talking about your slim chances at Big Law, etc. etc.

What would your thoughts be on this conversation? How would it make you feel about your "friend?"

This is a very good point, and I have thought about it from this perspective. I mean, I'm "only" going to a mid T1 school and there are plenty of people at T14's who think my decision is unwise...

I think the big difference is I've done a lot (probably too much) of homework and obsessing about my decision. I don't think my friend has done hardly any.

I think you are correct about the EMOTIONS of being told your school is an unwise choice, I just don't think the comparison is the same in terms of the reality of the situation.

[bk1]

Another way to look at this:

How would you feel if a buddy of yours who is about go to to Yale came over to hang out. You got to talking about law school and asked him what he thought of WUSTL. When asked, he responds in a polite, but disparaging manner, talking about your slim chances at Big Law, etc. etc.

What would your thoughts be on this conversation? How would it make you feel about your "friend?"

Hmm. I don't know if this adequately gets at the OP's friend's situation. Let's take your example and say the WUSTL attender was a 3.6/172 (or a 3.8/162 who didn't study for the LSAT and could do better on a retake) who applied at the absolute end of the cycle and thus got WL'ed (but eventually not accepted) to much better schools than WUSTL. The point is not to disparage the person's option because of how "bad" it may be, but to point out that the person is doing him or herself a disservice by not maximizing their chances. If WUSTL was the best possible school this person could get, then yeah, disparaging it is pretty pointless. However, if the person could do better then I feel there is nothing wrong with trying to point that out.

This is a very good point, and I have thought about it from this perspective. I mean, I'm "only" going to a mid T1 school and there are plenty of people at T14's who think my decision is unwise...

I think the big difference is I've done a lot (probably too much) of homework and obsessing about my decision. I don't think my friend has done hardly any.

I think you are correct about the EMOTIONS of being told your school is an unwise choice, I just don't think the comparison is the same in terms of the reality of the situation.

Agreed. It isn't about attacking them for making the choice of a T4, but about trying to show them that they are being ignorant but should go in with their eyes open if they do choose it, and/or could do better.

[Matthies]

Advice can come contingent on probabilities...simply looking at outliers doesn't make for good advice.

But what if the outliers in reality actually far outnumber the "supposed" successful ones? Any idea what size firms most lawyers work at? Any idea how they land those jobs? Any idea how to find out that info if its not in Matrinadale? Or if its not tracked on ATL? Any idea what the median salary is for a lawyer in a specific state? By firm size? By practice area? What are you using as data points for this? Anonymous internet sources? I'm not being an ass here, I'm asking have you looked for sources OUTSIDE the "common wisdom" of people not working in the legal world before you jump on the bandwagon?

So are you saying that the conventional wisdom on TLS that TTTT's don't provide, apart from a VERY small minority of lucky students, reasonable job prospects in the legal/quasi-legal profession is incorrect?

Or are you saying that I need to do more research on this specific school?-- because just looking at the LSAC #'s are grim (and those are still from before ITE)...and the school itself doesn't seem to publish employment stats on their website at all....

I'm saying you need to do more specific research on how legal hiring actually works. And to do that you need to move beyond what people like to cite on here as proof that X or Y won't get a job. First off, according to the ABA, a source that can be somewhat trusted with its imperial data 70% of all lawyers work for firms with less than 50 employees (not just lawyers, but employees total also the ABA has a blog with good info on the legal profession, but is not hear as entraining as ATL).

So that makes pointing to the NLJ 250 kind of pointless for most law grads, since well, that's the 250 LARGEST firms in the country, where well, most lawyers DO NOT WORK. Secondly you need to understand that at lower ranked schools very few get jobs from the school (in fact at the vast majority of schools this is true). They have to find them on their own. Looking at LSAC #'s tells you one thing for sure, that many can back up, law students universally suck at finding legal jobs on their own.

Then there is the fact that for the most part only larger law firms do OCI. Regardless of all that the best places to look for data on the legal market for anyone are not graphs that show the overall population of law grads for X years salaries for the whole damn country. Instead people would be smart, yet never do, to actually contact the local bar association in the city they want to work for. believe it or not, they actually track where lawyers get jobs in that city!
Here is an example. http://www.cobar.org/repository/LPM%20D ... Survey.pdf

Anyway, I'm not making any money responding to this thread, and well, I got loans to pay, so I need to get back to work since I must be the exception to the rule that no lawyers have jobs.

[Mr. Matlock]

Now I'm just confused...

Sorry, you're a top LSAT scorer so I'll do you the favor of talking in simple terms. MBA's are about as worthless today as the paper they're printed on. Unless your friend's company will PAY... and companies are dropping that old habit like the plague, you have NOTHING to show for an MBA but 3 meaningless letters on your resume. Their are maybe 5 to 10 colleges where an MBA means anything. Believe it or not, it's actually more elitist than where you get your JD degree from. Do your friend a favor and tell him to do his homework on that option.

And to add to the anecdotal party.... I have LOTS of friends with MBA's that had careers in BIG PHAMA. When companies were merged and positions lost, they had to go out and seek new employment figuring they'd be fine with their current credentials. Most ended up saying the MBA meant shit to prospective employers. All the managers are now back in sales of one type or another and nothing to show for their 2 year investment. (ANECDOTAL FTW!!!!)

[quickquestionthanks]

Yeah, or that we know someone who went to New York Law School, graduated 3 years ago, and are still making the same salary at the Legal Aid job that took them six months to get and are still $180k in debt and pretty miserable. But nice try asshole.

Well done son! An anecdotal situation. Brilliant!!! You have drank from the TLS Kool-Aid fountain, and found that it tasted good.

Not that responding to you seems incredibly useful here...but for future readers...

When I say I "know someone" I don't mean it in the TLS/Internet/messageboard/biblical sense, I mean a friend of mine. And for the record, he's the hardest working and kindest person I know. He's just not that bright. And kind of ugly.

Drinking from the Kool Aid is hearing about the handful of people out of the hundreds graduated every year from these degree mills that end up doing fine. Most people don't do fine. If you've got charisma, charm, chuztpah, go for it. Otherwise, buyer beware.

I think what some people are missing is that a law degree will generally earn you more over your lifetime than not getting one.

It certainly is a foot-in-the-door for many people and their careers. The question is whether you'd be better off picking a career you find interesting, working your ass off for 6 months to find a job in that career that pays $28k, and moving up the ranks. Three years later you'll find yourself with a higher salary than an entry level crap legal job, not in debt, and invaluable experience and contacts.

That's why people say, if you really want to be a lawyer, go for it. And if you're sure you want to be a lawyer, and are planning on a 4T, retake.

[Regionality]

Now I'm just confused...

Sorry, you're a top LSAT scorer so I'll do you the favor of talking in simple terms. MBA's are about as worthless today as the paper they're printed on. Unless your friend's company will PAY... and companies are dropping that old habit like the plague, you have NOTHING to show for an MBA but 3 meaningless letters on your resume. Their are maybe 5 to 10 colleges where an MBA means anything. Believe it or not, it's actually more elitist than where you get your JD degree from. Do your friend a favor and tell him to do his homework on that option.

And to add to the anecdotal party.... I have LOTS of friends with MBA's that had careers in BIG PHAMA. When companies were merged and positions lost, they had to go out and seek new employment figuring they'd be fine with their current credentials. Most ended up saying the MBA meant shit to prospective employers. All the managers are now back in sales of one type or another and nothing to show for their 2 year investment. (ANECDOTAL FTW!!!!)

It's hard to grasp cruel, cryptic sarcasm on internet blogs. Just say what you mean. We don't know your obnoxious sarcastic wit anymore than the next internet blogger, so man up and say something constructive like this initially next time.

[Mattalones]

After much deliberation, my official suggestion is to link your friend to THIS THREAD!

[Regionality]

.

[Mr. Matlock]

Stop being a dick on my thread. Either be nice or go away, I hate this kind of shit on TLS.

Oh please. You love every bit of it. FWIW, I think the title of your thread is probably one of the most offensive things I've read on TLS....... well, in like a week or so.

[quickquestionthanks]

Dude Matlock, you might think you've graduated from the Desert Fox "school of offensive but still funny one liners" but you haven't. Yours are just offensive. I hope you didn't pay too much for that degree

[Regionality]

haha i deleted but it really doesnt matter

[lostjake]

FWIW I talked a friend of mine into not going into getting a full time MBA.

Well done sir!! I had almost all but forgotten the MBA option. You're friend will certainly owe you big time for this great advice!!

You are a true friend!

I thought you meant that I wasn't a good friend

[dresden doll]

I am always a little baffled when people start threads like these.

Some people like to be straight up told when their ideas are an utter failure. Some prefer that the news bearer break it gently. Some need a serious discussion. Some respond well to hints. Some appreciate blatant paternalism. Some are so stubborn that it's no use talking to them at all.

Bottom line: you're familiar with this person's mental make-up more so than any of us. You should know what (if anything) might work better than anyone else. You should be able to figure the approach out on your own.

[Regionality]

I am always a little baffled when people start threads like these.

Some people like to be straight up told when their ideas are an utter failure. Some prefer that the news bearer break it gently. Some need a serious discussion. Some respond well to hints. Some appreciate blatant paternalism. Some are so stubborn that it's no use talking to them at all.

Bottom line: you're familiar with this person's mental make-up more so than any of us. You should know what (if anything) might work better than anyone else. You should be able to figure the approach out on your own.

What am I a therapist?

I've never felt compelled to give such serious advice to anyone...I've never felt someone was making such a poor, life changing decision before. I'm in unfamiliar territory.

[Mr. Matlock]

FWIW I talked a friend of mine into not going into getting a full time MBA.

Well done sir!! I had almost all but forgotten the MBA option. You're friend will certainly owe you big time for this great advice!!

You are a true friend!

I thought you meant that I wasn't a good friend

I'm sure you're a great friend. No hard feelings now. Internet is serious business you know.

[bk1]

What am I a therapist?

Yes.

I am always a little baffled when people start threads like these.

Some people like to be straight up told when their ideas are an utter failure. Some prefer that the news bearer break it gently. Some need a serious discussion. Some respond well to hints. Some appreciate blatant paternalism. Some are so stubborn that it's no use talking to them at all.

Bottom line: you're familiar with this person's mental make-up more so than any of us. You should know what (if anything) might work better than anyone else. You should be able to figure the approach out on your own.

The OP did say that he/she was not good at doing this kind of thing (i.e. often sounded too blunt, etc) and that is why he/she asked for help.

[dresden doll]

I am always a little baffled when people start threads like these.

Some people like to be straight up told when their ideas are an utter failure. Some prefer that the news bearer break it gently. Some need a serious discussion. Some respond well to hints. Some appreciate blatant paternalism. Some are so stubborn that it's no use talking to them at all.

Bottom line: you're familiar with this person's mental make-up more so than any of us. You should know what (if anything) might work better than anyone else. You should be able to figure the approach out on your own.

What am I a therapist?

I've never felt compelled to give such serious advice to anyone...I've never felt someone was making such a poor, life changing decision before. I'm in unfamiliar territory.

What are we, your/his therapists?

I didn't realize that being cognizant of a friend's personality and acting accordingly constituted therapy. I should have gotten another degree by now, if so.