Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships) Forum

[legends159]

wow TLS did work. Give some numbers to an open forum filled with analytical lawyers-to-be and we'll have some easy rankings any layman can understand.

well done ShowNprove

[showNprove]

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[09042014]

Wow. This might be game-changing.

Because you weren't paying attention before.

[showNprove]

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[jawsthegreat]

Wow. This might be game-changing.

Because you weren't paying attention before.

[Mattalones]

It seems to me that the top schools - HYS - have an understated placement power in these numbers. I would guess that close to 100% of the people at those schools could get NLJ250 OR Judicial Clerkships (emphasis on the "or"). Many probably don't do NLJ250 or judicial clerkships because they're interested in neither (just to point out, as I am sure others have, that self-selection is not accounted for well in the numbers).

I would bet, however, that self-selection is a gradually smaller factor as a school's rank falls further and further away from T3 schools. Many more (a higher proportion) of the people at the T15-T35 range are likely looking to do NLJ250 than at the highest ranking schools for several reasons (e.g. school creates a "Firm-Going Culture," there are less viable non-traditional career options available at those schools, etc.)

I wonder around which rank the data paints the most accurate picture of a school's placement power.

[09042014]

Honestly, here's what I don't get: why should "placement power" be on equal footing with undergraduate performance of students and performance on a one-day standardized test?

If I'm choosing a school, what does the LSAT of some kid who went there last year have to do with me? What does it mean about the education I will get, or the opportunities open to me upon graduation?

It means precisely fuck nothing.

If you want to keep those three variables, so be it...I can see an argument for "student quality." But if you think it is as important as placement power, I don't know what to tell you.

Without getting into a long argument over this, let me just pose this question: do you think these law schools would have the best placement if they didn't have the most-capable prospective attorneys?

But that is already factored into the placement stats. No need to do it again.

If anything you want to go to school with good placement but worse stats. More curve bait at those schools.

[Kronk]

Whatever you have to do to get us up to 6th, man.

This much more productive than working on LRW. More interesting, if nothing else, I think.

im thoroughly enjoying all the uva trolling cause this weekend is dedicated to convincing my dad that my ed at uva was a good idea..hes very west coast biased so its been tough but this info has my back

LOL at the guy trollin' BoalTTT going to SplitterU.

[showNprove]

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[OperaSoprano]

Honestly, here's what I don't get: why should "placement power" be on equal footing with undergraduate performance of students and performance on a one-day standardized test?

If I'm choosing a school, what does the LSAT of some kid who went there last year have to do with me? What does it mean about the education I will get, or the opportunities open to me upon graduation?

It means precisely fuck nothing.

If you want to keep those three variables, so be it...I can see an argument for "student quality." But if you think it is as important as placement power, I don't know what to tell you.

Without getting into a long argument over this, let me just pose this question: do you think these law schools would have the best placement if they didn't have the most-capable prospective attorneys?

But that is already factored into the placement stats. No need to do it again.

If anything you want to go to school with good placement but worse stats. More curve bait at those schools.

I'm just saying that the incoming stats mean more than "nothing."

For those who would like to see placement weighted more heavily (and for good reason):

Here's the ranking by weighing placement 50%, reputation 25%, and incoming stats 25% (with LSAT again being weighed twice as heavily as GPA):

1. Stanford (99.4)
2. Yale (96.8 )
3. Harvard (92.6)
4. Columbia (89.6)
5. Virginia (89.3)
5. Michigan (89.3)
7. Chicago (88.9)
8. Northwestern (86.4)
9. Duke (86.3)
10. NYU (85.0)
11. Berkeley (84.1)
12. Penn (81.5)
13. Vanderbilt (80.4)
14. Cornell (80.0)
15. Georgetown (77.9)
16. Texas (76.2)
17. USC (73.5)
18. UCLA (71.6)

--ImageRemoved--

Not that I object, or anything. I would love to see you do the T30, if you have time. (I just want NYC to recover...)

[09042014]

He is just going to end up making a list based on number of beer pong games played and number of drunken softball games played.

[Kronk]

Yeah. Because none of it changes the fact that 1Ls at NYU have summer jobs at market-paying firms and 1Ls at UVA / Michigan are trying to get whatever midlaw / government thing they can find.

Though the NLJ list is pretty sweet for you, DF. And I think it makes sense given the grads there have more work experience and maybe more marketability in an economy without need for associates right now.

[RVP11]

Yeah. Because none of it changes the fact that 1Ls at NYU have summer jobs at market-paying firms and 1Ls at UVA / Michigan are trying to get whatever midlaw / government thing they can find.

Har har.

Yes, the true benchmark of gauging legal hiring: number of 1L SAs making market.

[showNprove]

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[legends159]

Yeah. Because none of it changes the fact that 1Ls at NYU have summer jobs at market-paying firms and 1Ls at UVA / Michigan are trying to get whatever midlaw / government thing they can find.

Har har.

Yes, the true benchmark of gauging legal hiring: number of 1L SAs making market.

and based on anecdotal evidence...

[09042014]

He is just going to end up making a list based on number of beer pong games played and number of drunken softball games played.

Actually, the next ranking is going to include a measure of the student body's political-correctness during final exams.

LOL that betrays the fact that I read ATL.

[Kronk]

Yeah. Because none of it changes the fact that 1Ls at NYU have summer jobs at market-paying firms and 1Ls at UVA / Michigan are trying to get whatever midlaw / government thing they can find.

Har har.

Yes, the true benchmark of gauging legal hiring: number of 1L SAs making market.

It's the future, brohemian. Get on board.

[09042014]

Yeah. Because none of it changes the fact that 1Ls at NYU have summer jobs at market-paying firms and 1Ls at UVA / Michigan are trying to get whatever midlaw / government thing they can find.

Though the NLJ list is pretty sweet for you, DF. And I think it makes sense given the grads there have more work experience and maybe more marketability in an economy without need for associates right now.

Its probably just the fact that Chicago didn't shitcan 2L's as much as NYC firms did.

I expect MVPBDNC to do worse next year, and bottom out by 11.

[Kronk]

Yeah. Because none of it changes the fact that 1Ls at NYU have summer jobs at market-paying firms and 1Ls at UVA / Michigan are trying to get whatever midlaw / government thing they can find.

Har har.

Yes, the true benchmark of gauging legal hiring: number of 1L SAs making market.

and based on anecdotal evidence...

You guys HONESTLY think that UVa and Michigan place better than NYU into firms? REALLY?!

[Stringer Bell]

Honestly, here's what I don't get: why should "placement power" be on equal footing with undergraduate performance of students and performance on a one-day standardized test?

If I'm choosing a school, what does the LSAT of some kid who went there last year have to do with me? What does it mean about the education I will get, or the opportunities open to me upon graduation?

It means precisely fuck nothing.

If you want to keep those three variables, so be it...I can see an argument for "student quality." But if you think it is as important as placement power, I don't know what to tell you.

Without getting into a long argument over this, let me just pose this question: do you think these law schools would have the best placement if they didn't have the most-capable prospective attorneys?

But that is already factored into the placement stats. No need to do it again.

If anything you want to go to school with good placement but worse stats. More curve bait at those schools.

Yes and no. Going to a school with a lower quality of talent that places the same as a school with a higher quality of talent would probably make more sense at that exact moment, because you would theoretically stand to have a higher class standing. But if you go to a school that is losing ground attracting top talent, you have to figure that school will eventually begin losing their previous ability to place their graduates.

[09042014]

He is just going to end up making a list based on number of beer pong games played and number of drunken softball games played.

Actually, the next ranking is going to include a measure of the student body's political-correctness during final exams.

TBF the relaxed atmosphere at UVa is a reason I'd want to go there over Penn and Mich.

[miamiman]

This has all been wonderfully amusing but I'm still waiting for someone to bail out CCN.



'Cause right now, given this and other like threads, I'm starting to call into question everything tls has taught me about t6 > t10 > t14

[RVP11]

Looking at the country as a whole? I'd say it's about even, mate. Columbia and Chicago are better than NYU. And I don't doubt that they place better than NMVPBDCN.

Acting as if there's any real difference in 1L hiring is just dumb on your part. A) You don't know that, and B) 1L BigLaw hiring is virtually non-existent, and C) the recruitment criteria is much different.

[Stringer Bell]

You guys HONESTLY think that UVa and Michigan place better than NYU into firms? REALLY?!

No way. Just like there is no way SMU could outplace IU-B. US News Ranking Order = Relative Placement Order FTW.

[OperaSoprano]

Just a thought: NYC is still the largest legal market in the country. It's not going to stay screwed forever. UVA and Mich are awesome, but taking the long view, I don't see how CCN will continue to suffer like this when the market corrects itself.