Top schools hired by NLJ 250 firms in 2009!!! Forum

[showNprove]

Question:

Since this data is from the Class of 2009, who did OCI in 2007 and got offers from their SA gigs in summer 2008 before the financial crisis really took hold, it would make sense for schools like NYU to fall off so much if this data accounted for deferrals. But it doesn't. This data includes deferrals. How do we then account for the fall out? Did firms straight up revoke more offers from schools like NYU? Or does NYU just place so many less people into firms out of their OCI and rely on 3L hiring? Or did they just objectively hire less people from these schools in the first place?

[beesknees]

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[swc65]

Question:

Since this data is from the Class of 2009, who did OCI in 2007 and got offers from their SA gigs in summer 2008 before the financial crisis really took hold, it would make sense for schools like NYU to fall off so much if this data accounted for deferrals. But it doesn't. This data includes deferrals. How do we then account for the fall out? Did firms straight up revoke more offers from schools like NYU? Or does NYU just place so many less people into firms out of their OCI and rely on 3L hiring? Or did they just objectively hire less people from these schools in the first place?

The data are from firms' perspectives, right? So I guess it would make sense that the firms only consider the deferrals and such that they know they are going to hire. Also, the data include this past summer and up to this fall, so I am guessing the firms had a pretty good idea of which deferrals they actually planned to hire.

OR, who the fuck knows? We are all screwed, run for the hills and step over anyone and anything (including babies) that get in your way.

[toaster2]

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[swc65]

i don't really trust that this self-reported data from firms includes deferrals in most instances. we've seen numerous cases where 'deferred' associated have their offers pulled or start dates pushed back. if that is happening, i would think that firms don't think of deferred associated as 'hired' in any sense, but rather as people they've made revocable offers to.

True that's why I think that firms would only count those people they really feel they will hire.

Also, it makes sense that those schools that place a lot in the NYC market would be hit hardest.

[rayiner]

Question:

Since this data is from the Class of 2009, who did OCI in 2007 and got offers from their SA gigs in summer 2008 before the financial crisis really took hold, it would make sense for schools like NYU to fall off so much if this data accounted for deferrals. But it doesn't. This data includes deferrals. How do we then account for the fall out? Did firms straight up revoke more offers from schools like NYU? Or does NYU just place so many less people into firms out of their OCI and rely on 3L hiring? Or did they just objectively hire less people from these schools in the first place?

NYC laid off about twice as many NLJ250 associates in 2009, per capita, as Chicago, the second hardest-hit primary market. If the number of no-offers is proportional to the number of lay-offs, then it makes sense that the schools that place the most heavily into NYC would get hit the most. If you look at the chart you can see that: the schools that got hit the hardest relative to prior years (NYU, Penn, Cornell) all place primarily into NYC.

[fortissimo]

Clerking is something that has to be accounted for. I think someone posted a tongue and check post earlier "Georgetown > Yale."

However, if you combine both to get a good picture, I still assert that Vandy can hold its own with the lower T14. Look at Cornell. Its NLJ 250 firm placement has dropped to below 50% and its not placing a ton in clerkships either.

Possum, even when you account for clerkships, its not a clear call that Michigan is most certainly worth a good $80k extra in loans (which was my point) because if you add the total # of' 09 grads getting either NLJ 250 firm or a clerkship (according to USNWR 2009 clerkship stats) for both schools you will find that:

Michigan
NLJ250 firms: 208
Article III federal clerkships: 54
Total biglaw or federal clerkship: 262
% of class with biglaw or clerkship: 63.9%

Vanderbilt
NLJ250 firms: 89
Article III federal clerkships: 18
Total biglaw or federal clerkship: 107
% of class with biglaw or clerkship: 56.6%

So, yes, schools like Michigan outperform schools like Vandy. BUT its not by as much as one would think after reading TLS posts. It also important to note that whether or not that extra 6-7% in placement of class in the "top" jobs is worth an extra 80 grand is certainly a point that can be argued both ways.

My point earlier about the TLS mindwarp is that if you let what is the general consensus on here sway your perspective, you might start seeing huge differences between schools that are not there. Not that there isn't any difference. I firmly believe that it is important to weigh the degree of difference in employment stats with the degree of difference between debt load when choosing a school.

I thought Michigan only had 360 students per year? If so that, that means we placed 73% into big law or clerkships....

Also can anyone else not access the site? And are Michigan and Virginia really kicking major ass?

[Aeroplane]

So, yes, schools like Michigan outperform schools like Vandy. BUT its not by as much as one would think after reading TLS posts. It also important to note that whether or not that extra 6-7% in placement of class in the "top" jobs is worth an extra 80 grand is certainly a point that can be argued both ways.

For any individual student who's comparing Michigan to Vandy, I think it's important to note that 43% of Vandy grads end up in the South (as defined by their career services) and there's probably a lot of self-selection going on at the matriculation stage since the single most represented state in Vandy's incoming 1L class is TN.

Speculation: If much of Vandy's NLJ250 placement is accounted for by Southern/Midwest kids going to Southern/Midwest firms and you're from the Northeast or CA and have no connection at all to the South or Midwest, I don't think you can expect anywhere near the same success rate in NALP firms in those regions just because you're a Vandy student.

[Dignan]

According to the report, Columbia handed out almost 50 more JDs than the year before, for a total of 444. Is that right? If so, what accounts for it? I thought that Columbia usually admits about 370 1Ls and then accepts about 30 transfers per year. What was different about the class of 2009?

[lawduder]

can someone post a screenshot of the chart? i'm at work right now and for some reason, none of the charts are popping up.

gracias

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[rayiner]

Clerking is something that has to be accounted for. I think someone posted a tongue and check post earlier "Georgetown > Yale."

However, if you combine both to get a good picture, I still assert that Vandy can hold its own with the lower T14. Look at Cornell. Its NLJ 250 firm placement has dropped to below 50% and its not placing a ton in clerkships either.

Possum, even when you account for clerkships, its not a clear call that Michigan is most certainly worth a good $80k extra in loans (which was my point) because if you add the total # of' 09 grads getting either NLJ 250 firm or a clerkship (according to USNWR 2009 clerkship stats) for both schools you will find that:

Michigan
NLJ250 firms: 208
Article III federal clerkships: 54
Total biglaw or federal clerkship: 262
% of class with biglaw or clerkship: 63.9%

Vanderbilt
NLJ250 firms: 89
Article III federal clerkships: 18
Total biglaw or federal clerkship: 107
% of class with biglaw or clerkship: 56.6%

So, yes, schools like Michigan outperform schools like Vandy. BUT its not by as much as one would think after reading TLS posts. It also important to note that whether or not that extra 6-7% in placement of class in the "top" jobs is worth an extra 80 grand is certainly a point that can be argued both ways.

My point earlier about the TLS mindwarp is that if you let what is the general consensus on here sway your perspective, you might start seeing huge differences between schools that are not there. Not that there isn't any difference. I firmly believe that it is important to weigh the degree of difference in employment stats with the degree of difference between debt load when choosing a school.

I thought Michigan only had 360 students per year? If so that, that means we placed 73% into big law or clerkships....

Also can anyone else not access the site? And are Michigan and Virginia really kicking major ass?

Michigan's 1L class is bigger than 360, and you gotta account for transfers, etc.

[fortissimo]

can someone post a screenshot of the chart? i'm at work right now and for some reason, none of the charts are popping up.

gracias

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Thanks! I had trouble accessing the chart too.

[OperaSoprano]

Oh okay. I know what you mean though.

I remember seeing an article that said the UIUC only had like 60 employers last year (and that obviously doesn't mean that each employer actually hired someone) - heck the dean even said employers were going to U of Chicago, U of Michigan, and Northwestern (you know something is wrong when a dean of a law school recognizes other law schools in that form).

Moral of the story?

I know it's been said before, but really if someone can't swing a T14 (not including Texas obviously), don't go to school in a major market.

Although this data is useless without knowing:

1) what percentage at each school was deferred
2) what percentage at each school were deferred and never officially hired
3) I would say what percentage clerked, but that was covered by ShowNprove

UIUC got screwed by its location, which it really didn't deserve. The big boys (read: V5 firms) are still coming here. Anyone's guess as to whether they're going to hire my classmates, but I saw Skadden on campus. I mean, it makes sense for them to come here; it's not like Fordham is particularly far out of their way. The decimation is not as bad as I had feared. As Ray pointed out, thanks to Wall Street's issues, things were bad in New York. As a non T14 in NYC, by rights Fordham should've had a far worse time of it. We won't have 43.7% again for a while, but top third was our historical benchmark. There's a reasonable chance we'll be there again in August, since things are picking up. A friend who is a fourth year associate at a top firm says the recruiters are pestering her again, and for once, she's glad to hear the phone ring.

NYC is not down and out. These numbers are not wonderful, but neither are they the debacle I was bracing for. Things may indeed be worse for the classes of '10 and '11 (anecdotally speaking, anyway), but '09 is in better shape than I had feared.

Someone who knows firm hiring practices better than I do: how much do they really care about school diversity in SA classes? Would top firms do all their hiring at HYS if they could? (I hear various things, but the system is opaque to me.) There's been lively debate as to whether most firms would rather have, say, bottom 10% at CLS or top 10% at Brooklyn. The consensus seems to be that the former is in better shape ITE.

[beesknees]

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[fortissimo]

I thought Michigan only had 360 students per year? If so that, that means we placed 73% into big law or clerkships....

The # that the NLJ250 firms chart listed total number of degree awarded for Michigan as 410. So it must include LLMs. I just used 410 because that chart used it.

Why is Penn sucking it?

[women'ssoccer]

I am rather encouraged that Wake Forest placed 20% in 2009.

And I am shocked that Wake placed a whole 5% more than UNC did.

Wake >> UNC???? (specifically for NC, but also in general)

[holydonkey]

I thought Michigan only had 360 students per year? If so that, that means we placed 73% into big law or clerkships....

The # that the NLJ250 firms chart listed total number of degree awarded for Michigan as 410. So it must include LLMs. I just used 410 because that chart used it.

Everything you say +1

Seriously, with only three schools left to hear from, it looks like Vandy vs. Michigan is going to be my choice as well. I'm leaning Michigan, but waiting to hear about Vandy money.

[Son of Cicero]

I thought Michigan only had 360 students per year? If so that, that means we placed 73% into big law or clerkships....

The # that the NLJ250 firms chart listed total number of degree awarded for Michigan as 410. So it must include LLMs. I just used 410 because that chart used it.

Everything you say +1

Seriously, with only three schools left to hear from, it looks like Vandy vs. Michigan is going to be my choice as well. I'm leaning Michigan, but waiting to hear about Vandy money.

-1 because when you compare the number of degrees awarded with the lower 0L matriculation number, the excess is made up almost entirely of transfer students.

Note also that the column says, "No. of JDs awarded." The LL.M. isn't the same thing.

[jj55]

Here is the hiring data sorted by percent change 2008 to 2009.

School % Change
Penn -25.8
Cornell -20.5
Chicago -16.4
Columbia -15.8
NYU -15.7
Berkeley -14.8
Fordham -14.3
Duke -12.5
George Washington -11.9
Boston University -11.4
Boston College -11.2
Harvard -9.9
Northwestern -7.4
UCLA -6.7
USC -6.3
Georgetown -6.2
Virginia -5.6
Michigan -4.3
Stanford -2.2
Vanderbilt +2.5

[rayiner]

Here is the hiring data sorted by percent change.

School % Change
Pennsylvania -25.8
Cornell -20.5
Chicago -16.4
Columbia -15.8
New York University -15.7
Berkeley -14.8
Fordham -14.3
Duke -12.5
George Washington -11.9
Boston University -11.4
Boston College -11.2
Harvard -9.9
Northwestern -7.4
UCLA -6.7
USC -6.3
Georgetown -6.2
Virginia -5.6
Michigan -4.3
Stanford -2.2
Vanderbilt +2.5

Cool, presumably from 2008?

The top 5 schools on that list all place heavily into elite NYC firms. So it's really not surprising they got hit hard by no-offers last year.

[jj55]

Cool, presumably from 2008?

The top 5 schools on that list all place heavily into elite NYC firms. So it's really not surprising they got hit hard by no-offers last year.

Yeah, percent change from 2008 to 2009.

[RVP11]

NYC's demise can't fully explain the drop of CCN + Penn + Cornell when Michigan and Virginia took such tiny hits.

[fortissimo]

NYC's demise can't fully explain the drop of CCN + Penn + Cornell when Michigan and Virginia took such tiny hits.

+1...any idea why Penn got owned? It used to place a ton into big law....so weird that it's doing worse than GULC now. It's not really known for government nor PI work either.

Glad Mich and Virginia are doing so well though, especially since some people seem to hate on us.

[underachiever]

Well im guessing it is b/c Penn is so NY heavy (a few to DC and Philly) and Philly got crushed and so did NYC. While both UVA and Michigan are much more diversified in-terms of where graduates go. Michigan does spread through the Midwest and a substantial amount to Chicago, plus they still send more to DC then Penn does. The same with UVA, which feeds through the south and DC with NYC as the #1 destination but not by the large percentage it is for Penn graduates....still no excuse, Penn got owned

[solidsnake]

So does this spell the end of Penn's magical 100% employment rate???