Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School Forum

[anthonyc350]

"Public Ivies" is one of the most moronic sentiments of the modern day.

First of all, "The Ivy League" is a sports conference.

Second, the concept of "Public Ivies" is just meant to make stupid/poor people feel better about themselves.

Why can't you just say you go to a good school? Why do you have to add "Ivy" to the end? Self gratification? Masturbation is more fulfilling.

God damn poor people! Trying to sound privileged!

[anthonyc350]

Last I read it was 60%+, but I read that when I applied to undergrad. Regardless, taking into account the entire institution and other grad programs, etc. Michigan >>>>> UCSD. UCSD doesn't have a lot of strong departments.

(fwiw, I didn't go to any of these for undergrad, just saying...)

You don't think UCSD have strong science programs?

Maybe not the strongest school for English...

[Cleareyes]

HLS definitely benefits from being part of Harvard University. The name just carries weight with it, including with clients, and it wouldn't be as powerful as it is if the rest of the university weren't so strong. You also pick up currency among the elite by being able to talk about Cambridge and various aspects of Harvard fluently, even if you didn't go here for undergrad. The same is true for Stanford or Yale. There doesn't have to be a huge disparity in reputation for institutional strength to influence the view of a school. That's not even getting into the advantage in terms of intellectual life or faculty recruiting etc...

[ScaredWorkedBored]

I know this, but they weren't shown. I saw that list on Wiki. It's outdated. Some schools don't really have the prestige of some others. Out of those 3 schools you mentioned, Washington is hands down the best research institution, with Illinois coming in second.

Actually, it goes UCLA = UW = other UW, the only public schools they are behind being Michigan & Berkeley. In US News parlence, they'd be tied for #3 in the top 5. Illinois, while still top tier, is a good deal further down the list.

http://mup.asu.edu/research2007.pdf, at 8.

The money stuff might change around, but the "number of measures" stuff should be pretty constant.

[tomhobbes]

Last I read it was 60%+, but I read that when I applied to undergrad. Regardless, taking into account the entire institution and other grad programs, etc. Michigan >>>>> UCSD. UCSD doesn't have a lot of strong departments.

(fwiw, I didn't go to any of these for undergrad, just saying...)

You should do some research. Michigan is probably a bit better than UCSD, but UCSD is much better than you seem to think.

[ndirish2010]

The whole idea of 'Public Ivy' is one of the more stupid inventions of modern times. There are good public schools, but there are only eight schools in the Ivy League, and there hasn't been an effort to add another one for a long, long time. Whether schools such as MIT, Stanford, CIT, UChicago, etc. etc... are as good as Cornell, Dartmouth, Brown...is irrelevant, because MIT, CIT, and UofC play Division III athletics, which could not compete against Ivy League competition, while Stanford is in the Pac-10, which is too competitive for the low-D1 Ivy League. Students at these four schools (and others including Hopkins, Duke, etc. among research schools and Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore, Pomona, Haverford, W&L, etc. among LACs) probably don't have any insecurities about their school not being 'Ivy League,' because they know it is either almost as good, as good, or better than some Ivies. Same goes for schools like Berkeley, UCLA, UVA, UNC, W&M, Michigan (probably the six publics with the strongest UG reputations)...no Ivy label necessary, the schools are just good.

[flyingpanda]

As a UCLA grad, I can say that nobody there really cared that we were considered a "new ivy" or "public ivy" or whatever the term is.

[bighead715]

everyone here is forgetting WAYNE STATE UNIVERSITY

the greatest university in the history of the world

shits on the entire pac 10 and big 10

dbags

[scionb4]

everyone here is forgetting WAYNE STATE UNIVERSITY

the greatest university in the history of the world

shits on the entire pac 10 and big 10

dbags

I'm more partial to Peru State College in Peru, Nebraska. It's pretty high class.

[tarheel87]

Wow I'm surprised by the amount of Michigan State hate on here, sure it's no Michigan but its definitely a strong state school with some impressive grad programs. I know a number of people that went there over UMich and other "public ivies" or whatever.

[scionb4]

Wow I'm surprised by the amount of Michigan State hate on here, sure it's no Michigan but its definitely a strong state school with some impressive grad programs. I know a number of people that went there over UMich and other "public ivies" or whatever.

You and me both, NC fan.

[fortissimo]

I know this, but they weren't shown. I saw that list on Wiki. It's outdated. Some schools don't really have the prestige of some others. Out of those 3 schools you mentioned, Washington is hands down the best research institution, with Illinois coming in second.

Actually, it goes UCLA = UW = other UW, the only public schools they are behind being Michigan & Berkeley. In US News parlence, they'd be tied for #3 in the top 5. Illinois, while still top tier, is a good deal further down the list.

http://mup.asu.edu/research2007.pdf, at 8.

The money stuff might change around, but the "number of measures" stuff should be pretty constant.

yeah probably agree with research. but I think ranking the public institutions overall (rank of ALL grad programs, undergrad, research, etc.), I think it's

Berkeley> Michigan> UCLA > Texas> Wisconsin > Washington

I think UVA would be left out of the story completely since it kind of sucks big time in the sciences. Texas, while slightly lower ranked than other publics for ugrad, has really strong grad programs, esp. in the sciences.

/end trolling

[anthonyc350]

wisconsin>texas ug

[jnorsky]

If we are talking about public institutions, putting berkeley above michigan is not really necessary. They are pretty much in a league of their own and on par with some of the really elite US universities. After them, Texas, UCLA and UNC are up there. I was surprised to find how UVA really isnt a well rounded elite public university. Definitely great undergrad, law, business and med school though.

[jay115]

If we are talking about public institutions, putting berkeley above michigan is not really necessary. They are pretty much in a league of their own and on par with some of the really elite US universities. After them, Texas, UCLA and UNC are up there. I was surprised to find how UVA really isnt a well rounded elite public university. Definitely great undergrad, law, business and med school though.

I guess bc I'm going to UCLA I have an obligation to defend it, so here's my shot: Michigan and UCLA have comparable business and medical schools; Michigan has a better law school whereas UCLA has a stronger undergraduate program. I suppose we could further break it down by specific statistics, but based on rankings, money, and overall university prestige, UCLA is on par with Michigan.

In regards to Berkeley vs Michigan: Berkeley as a stronger undergraduate program, law program, science programs, and is overall stronger than Michigan. In the global university rankings program, Berkeley ranks third (only below stanford and harvard) whereas Michigan ranks 22 (which, i might add, is substantially lower than UCLA and UCSD). Berkeley is the only university in the nation to achieve top 5 rankings for all of its PhD programs in those disciplines covered by the USWNR. Not that USWNR is gold, but this is TLS.

Actually, for everyone who says UCSD sucks (I have no connection to UCSD save the fact that I'm a CA resident): --LinkRemoved--. Methodology and everything present.

[BobDole34]

There is no one metric to rank public schools but Michigan, Wisconsin, Berkeley, UCLA, UNC, WM, UVA in a group are highly credited. But trying to compare Wisconsin to W&M is impossible. They're so different. Illinois, Texas, Ga Tech, UCSD are notable.

[jnorsky]

If we are talking about public institutions, putting berkeley above michigan is not really necessary. They are pretty much in a league of their own and on par with some of the really elite US universities. After them, Texas, UCLA and UNC are up there. I was surprised to find how UVA really isnt a well rounded elite public university. Definitely great undergrad, law, business and med school though.

I guess bc I'm going to UCLA I have an obligation to defend it, so here's my shot: Michigan and UCLA have comparable business and medical schools; Michigan has a better law school whereas UCLA has a stronger undergraduate program. I suppose we could further break it down by specific statistics, but based on rankings, money, and overall university prestige, UCLA is on par with Michigan.

In regards to Berkeley vs Michigan: Berkeley as a stronger undergraduate program, law program, science programs, and is overall stronger than Michigan. In the global university rankings program, Berkeley ranks third (only below stanford and harvard) whereas Michigan ranks 22 (which, i might add, is substantially lower than UCLA and UCSD). Berkeley is the only university in the nation to achieve top 5 rankings for all of its PhD programs in those disciplines covered by the USWNR. Not that USWNR is gold, but this is TLS.

Actually, for everyone who says UCSD sucks (I have no connection to UCSD save the fact that I'm a CA resident): --LinkRemoved--. Methodology and everything present.

That ranking you gave had UC San Fransisco ranked higher than michigan, i discredit that entirely.

And to say berkeley has stronger programs in law, science and undergrad is very subjective. Both get underplayed in undergrad rankings because they are public. Law schools are peers, getting a masters or PHD in either ones science programs is very imressive, both are peers in terms of most things. I am not going to go item by item, but I would definitely say that there is little difference between the quality of Michigan and Berkeley overall.

UCLA is definitely a great school and is up there with michigan, and Berk, but it really does not do better than Michigan in much, if anything. To compare Michigan to UCSD is retarded. And again, having it ranked above michigan shows that ranking is using really odd metrics or is just idiotic.

[galahad85]

That ranking you gave had UC San Fransisco ranked higher than michigan, i discredit that entirely.

What's wrong with that? UCSF is one of the best medical research institutions in the country.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... h-rankings

[jay115]

If we are talking about public institutions, putting berkeley above michigan is not really necessary. They are pretty much in a league of their own and on par with some of the really elite US universities. After them, Texas, UCLA and UNC are up there. I was surprised to find how UVA really isnt a well rounded elite public university. Definitely great undergrad, law, business and med school though.

I guess bc I'm going to UCLA I have an obligation to defend it, so here's my shot: Michigan and UCLA have comparable business and medical schools; Michigan has a better law school whereas UCLA has a stronger undergraduate program. I suppose we could further break it down by specific statistics, but based on rankings, money, and overall university prestige, UCLA is on par with Michigan.

In regards to Berkeley vs Michigan: Berkeley as a stronger undergraduate program, law program, science programs, and is overall stronger than Michigan. In the global university rankings program, Berkeley ranks third (only below stanford and harvard) whereas Michigan ranks 22 (which, i might add, is substantially lower than UCLA and UCSD). Berkeley is the only university in the nation to achieve top 5 rankings for all of its PhD programs in those disciplines covered by the USWNR. Not that USWNR is gold, but this is TLS.

Actually, for everyone who says UCSD sucks (I have no connection to UCSD save the fact that I'm a CA resident): --LinkRemoved--. Methodology and everything present.

That ranking you gave had UC San Fransisco ranked higher than michigan, i discredit that entirely.

And to say berkeley has stronger programs in law, science and undergrad is very subjective. Both get underplayed in undergrad rankings because they are public. Law schools are peers, getting a masters or PHD in either ones science programs is very imressive, both are peers in terms of most things. I am not going to go item by item, but I would definitely say that there is little difference between the quality of Michigan and Berkeley overall.

UCLA is definitely a great school and is up there with michigan, and Berk, but it really does not do better than Michigan in much, if anything. To compare Michigan to UCSD is retarded. And again, having it ranked above michigan shows that ranking is using really odd metrics or is just idiotic.

I was just going to respond but galahad85 beat me to it. Not only is UCSF have one of the best medical schools in the country, the National Research Council ranked UCSF among the top ten schools in the U.S. in biochemistry and molecular biology (1st), genetics (2nd), cell and developmental biology (3rd), neurosciences (4th), physiology (5th), and biomedical engineering (7th). It apparently also has an awesome dental, pharmaceutical, and nursing school (all poached from wikipedia and linked sources).

What's nice about this ranking is that EVERYTHING (methodology, statistics, and analysis) is transparent. If someone has data to the contrary, this is an open thread. Claiming Michigan and Berkeley are peers (or that UCSF sucks) without data or evidence is hollow. If you'd like to share what metrics you find exactly "odd," do share.

The UC system is the finest public school system mainly because of the sheer amount of strong top-tier schools in one state - UCSD has an amazing research and science focus. California has been through a shitload of budget crises before (most recently 2003) and the UC's survived it. Arguing that all UC schools below UCLA and Berkeley suck without explaining how is pure anti-UC trolling.

As a side note: If you're a CA citizen and are accepted into UCSF med school, you can attend for FREE - HOW COME ATTENDING A PUBLIC LAW SCHOOL IN CALIFORNIA ISN'T FREE?

[galahad85]

As a side note: If you're a CA citizen and are accepted into UCSF med school, you can attend for FREE - HOW COME ATTENDING A PUBLIC LAW SCHOOL IN CALIFORNIA ISN'T FREE?

Seriously?

Damn, I chose the wrong career path...

[Tofu]

As a side note: If you're a CA citizen and are accepted into UCSF med school, you can attend for FREE - HOW COME ATTENDING A PUBLIC LAW SCHOOL IN CALIFORNIA ISN'T FREE?

Seriously?

Damn, I chose the wrong career path...

ucsf is really freaking hard to get into

[PDaddy]

Pac-10 > Big ten academically speaking. The Pac-10 has heavy weights like Berkeley & Stanford, as well as very good schools like UCLA, USC and the University of Washington and... the rest of the schools aren't terrible either.

The big ten may have more good schools, but it's lacking in truly great schools, and I think this gives the Pac the edge


I know nobody cares, but it seems like the Pac-10 is always forgotten.

You're right! But if U-Chicago was still in the Bog-10 it would make a difference.

Stanford>NU
Berkeley>Michigan
UCLA>Illinois
USC>Wisconsin
Washington>Iowa
Minnesota>Arizona
Ohio St.>Arizona St.
Penn St.>Oregon(even if it had a law school)

Purdue> Washington St. (regardless)
Michigan St.>Oregon St. (Also)

[PDaddy]

Public Ivies: UNC, UVA, Berk, UMich.


Mich St. is a shit-house ranked 29th among only public schools.

Yup!

GA. Tech, W & M, Washington, and Illinois also have to be considered in that group.

[PDaddy]

I know this, but they weren't shown. I saw that list on Wiki. It's outdated. Some schools don't really have the prestige of some others. Out of those 3 schools you mentioned, Washington is hands down the best research institution, with Illinois coming in second.

Actually, it goes UCLA = UW = other UW, the only public schools they are behind being Michigan & Berkeley. In US News parlence, they'd be tied for #3 in the top 5. Illinois, while still top tier, is a good deal further down the list.

http://mup.asu.edu/research2007.pdf, at 8.

The money stuff might change around, but the "number of measures" stuff should be pretty constant.

yeah probably agree with research. but I think ranking the public institutions overall (rank of ALL grad programs, undergrad, research, etc.), I think it's

Berkeley> Michigan> UCLA > Texas> Wisconsin > Washington

I think UVA would be left out of the story completely since it kind of sucks big time in the sciences. Texas, while slightly lower ranked than other publics for ugrad, has really strong grad programs, esp. in the sciences.

/end trolling

Berkeley>Michigan>UCLA>Washington>Wisconsin>Texas

[im_blue]

just to add a little info... in high school (in socal), we basically had five tiers for the UCs:

Berkeley
UCLA
UCSD
UCD/UCSB/UCI (in no order)
UCR
(I'm not including merced because it was such a new school)

a lot of people i knew went to SD over LA based on personal preference for the area/school, and a lot of people i knew also went to LA over Berkeley. there also wasn't a perceived, meaningful difference between davis, santa barbara, and irvine (everyone pretty much saw those schools as below berkeley/la/sd).

Trolling against UCSC?

ahhh i forgot about ucsc! tbh i'm not sure where ucsc ranks in there.... just that it's below berkeley/ucla/ucsd

UCB
UCLA
UCSD
UCD/UCI/UCSB
UCSC
UCR
UCM