HYSCCN Forum

[showNprove]

.

[echoi]

I didn't know that sharing some relevant but not perfect stats would lead to an online war. However, I like it.

lol

+1.

[studylaw7]

--ImageRemoved--

Prestige Tiers:
YHS
CC
NMVB
P
DGC
NT


There is a HUGE gap between NYU/Virginia/Michigan/Berkeley and Duke/GULC/Cornell. Penn fills it in a little bit, but if you removed Penn from this graph, you can see exactly what kind of gap exists. Placement is a lot closer than prestige.

placing NYU below CC is just stupid, so is putting Penn below MVB. The best way to measure prestige is by student quality, not some made-up peer assessment scores that are manipulated by the editors of USNWR to make sure the rankings end up the way they want it to.

[dresden doll]

Agreed. And I'll be damned if I think that there's much of a difference between MVPB and CCN for that matter.

HYS certainly outstrips CCN, but I'm not at all convinced that CCN really outstrips MVPB by all that much.

for placement, CCN definitely has an advantage over MVPB.

for prestige, there is also a gap. prestige is largely a function of student quality. the student quality of MVPB is much closer to DCNG than it is to CCN.

you must be attending a 7-10 school.

I attend one of CCN, as I already said. I wish you better luck with reading next time around.

[studylaw7]

Agreed. And I'll be damned if I think that there's much of a difference between MVPB and CCN for that matter.

HYS certainly outstrips CCN, but I'm not at all convinced that CCN really outstrips MVPB by all that much.

for placement, CCN definitely has an advantage over MVPB.

for prestige, there is also a gap. prestige is largely a function of student quality. the student quality of MVPB is much closer to DCNG than it is to CCN.

you must be attending a 7-10 school.

I attend one of CCN, as I already said. I wish you better luck with reading next time around.

sure you do.

[showNprove]

.

[mallard]

Student quality is a poor way to measure school prestige. If you're a student trying to decide where to go, your own quality is static. You want to know which school will maximize your chances at getting the job you want; this is not really determined by your peers' LSAT scores.

[Veyron]

--ImageRemoved--

Prestige Tiers:
YHS
CC
NMVB
P
DGC
NT

I have never in my life seen this breakdown. It appears to be wholly made up. The only thread I can detect is that it constitutes not so subtle V trolling.

Stop being an asshole. This graph is a collection of the peer assessment scores collected by USNWR surveys over the last four years. It tracks the opinions of legal academics, lawyers, and judges on the quality of the schools.

A fine and logical legal mind if the best retort you could come up with is "asshole." Truly if I didn't have a very intelligent friend at UVA I'd be tempted to conclude that your school is quite the TTT since it admitted you.

I'm not arguing with the graph, merely the tiers that you drew up on the basis of it which seem fairly arbitrary. I've always had more respect for the grouping more directly relevant to me, one based on hiring. I think this is what we were talking about when we talk about grouping. After all, its better to be from ASU with BIGLAW than NYU without. Sometimes, you can't beat tradition:

HYS

CCN

MVPB

DCNG

Obviously, each school has regional advantages but the overall employment numbers don't lie.

[kurama20]

That Kurama fellow sounds kinda dumb. However, this thread has led to an interesting discussion over what qualifies as biglaw. This has actually created problems for me as I keep asking people about NYU's placement in west coast Biglaw. People think that I am referring exclusively to CA but I am actually more interested in Mountain West placement stats. I don't really know how to phrase the question. If I ask, "what are the employment prospects out of CCN for Mountain West Biglaw" people get confused. There is all of 1 firm in Phoenix that pays 160k and it has all of 8 people working at it. Than again, there are lots of firms paying 90k that qualify as Midlaw, and I don't want people to get confused and think I am talking about them. I think biglaw definitions have to be regional. In AZ, any firm (NJL 250 or not) that pays 125 or so is considered to be biglaw. In nyc, I imagine that 145 doesn't make you biglaw, and that if you are a small firm paying 160k, you are considered to be a "boutique" (which very well may be equally or more prestigious than BIGLAW). Hence biglaw in NYC/Chi/DC/LA would have to be a large firm paying 160k.

edit: Renzo, you have any idea about where I would have to be in NYU's class to get Mountain West BIGLAW according to my definition (assuming solid ties)?

Where did your dumbass come from? Renzo seems to be like a pile of shit...he appears and the flies start swarming.

[mallard]

showNprove, I believe you may have confused 75th percentiles and medians for some of those schools.

[dresden doll]

Agreed. And I'll be damned if I think that there's much of a difference between MVPB and CCN for that matter.

HYS certainly outstrips CCN, but I'm not at all convinced that CCN really outstrips MVPB by all that much.

for placement, CCN definitely has an advantage over MVPB.

for prestige, there is also a gap. prestige is largely a function of student quality. the student quality of MVPB is much closer to DCNG than it is to CCN.

you must be attending a 7-10 school.

I attend one of CCN, as I already said. I wish you better luck with reading next time around.

sure you do.

There aren't enough emoticons I could possibly utilize to express the amount of fail contained in your remarks.

Please let me know if you manage to get into Chicago (highly unlikely, since entering students tend to be, you know, intelligent). I'll be the first 1L to come say hi to you at the ASW.

Oh, and protip: it's usually not a good idea to challenge veracity of claims made by people who've been around here for a while, especially when you personally have <100 posts.

[kurama20]

--ImageRemoved--

Prestige Tiers:
YHS
CC
NMVB
P
DGC
NT

I have never in my life seen this breakdown. It appears to be wholly made up. The only thread I can detect is that it constitutes not so subtle V trolling.

Stop being an asshole. This graph is a collection of the peer assessment scores collected by USNWR surveys over the last four years. It tracks the opinions of legal academics, lawyers, and judges on the quality of the schools.

A fine and logical legal mind if the best retort you could come up with is "asshole." Truly if I didn't have a very intelligent friend at UVA I'd be tempted to conclude that your school is quite the TTT since it admitted you.

I'm not arguing with the graph, merely the tiers that you drew up on the basis of it which seem fairly arbitrary. I've always had more respect for the grouping more directly relevant to me, one based on hiring. I think this is what we were talking about when we talk about grouping. After all, its better to be from ASU with BIGLAW than NYU without. Sometimes, you can't beat tradition:

HYS

CCN

MVPB

DCNG

Obviously, each school has regional advantages but the overall employment numbers don't lie.

You do know that show and prove presented fact while you continue to spout off your own opinions right?

[Veyron]

Yes, he presented fact about... wait for it... opinions. As I've said, I care about #'s so I prefer the ones that Rezno provided.

[studylaw7]

Student quality is a poor way to measure school prestige. If you're a student trying to decide where to go, your own quality is static. You want to know which school will maximize your chances at getting the job you want; this is not really determined by your peers' LSAT scores.

our perception of schools is largely dictated by student quality. We don't think HYP are prestigious colleges just because of their names, it's because when we meet the people who went there, we automatically think they must be very smart. the quality of their students is the main factor we use to determine how good the school is, and therefore how prestigious it is.

talking about maximizing your chances of getting a job is PLACEMENT not PRESTIGE. get it right.

[dresden doll]

LOL at studylaw instructing mallard to GET IT RIGHT.

[showNprove]

--ImageRemoved--

Prestige Tiers:
YHS
CC
NMVB
P
DGC
NT

I have never in my life seen this breakdown. It appears to be wholly made up. The only thread I can detect is that it constitutes not so subtle V trolling.

Stop being an asshole. This graph is a collection of the peer assessment scores collected by USNWR surveys over the last four years. It tracks the opinions of legal academics, lawyers, and judges on the quality of the schools.

A fine and logical legal mind if the best retort you could come up with is "asshole." Truly if I didn't have a very intelligent friend at UVA I'd be tempted to conclude that your school is quite the TTT since it admitted you.

I'm not arguing with the graph, merely the tiers that you drew up on the basis of it which seem fairly arbitrary. I've always had more respect for the grouping more directly relevant to me, one based on hiring. Sometimes, you can't beat tradition:

HYS

CCN

MVPB

DCNG

Obviously, each school has regional advantages but the overall employment numbers don't lie.

"Asshole" was not a retort--surely not anymore than you trying to negate my statistics by calling me a troll (which is exactly why I called you an asshole).

Tiers are arbitrary when they have no basis in fact. I simply laid out the plain observation of the groupings in the graph. It wasn't my decision, as is apparently your implication.

Simply because an online community found an easy way to group schools based on the fallible USNWR rankings doesn't mean that's reality. These surveys are more accurate of the opinions of people beyond 0L's and a small collection of students on the internet. If you don't like that it's different, complain to the judges who turn in the surveys.

[kurama20]

Student quality is a poor way to measure school prestige. If you're a student trying to decide where to go, your own quality is static. You want to know which school will maximize your chances at getting the job you want; this is not really determined by your peers' LSAT scores.

It's amazing how someone could miss that but studylaw managed to. He doesn't seem to realize that "student quality aka LSAT/GPA ratio doesn't line up completely with career prospects. At this point it's pretty obvious he doesn't know what he's talking about.

[mallard]

Student quality is a poor way to measure school prestige. If you're a student trying to decide where to go, your own quality is static. You want to know which school will maximize your chances at getting the job you want; this is not really determined by your peers' LSAT scores.

our perception of schools is largely dictated by student quality. We don't think HYP are prestigious colleges just because of their names, it's because when we meet the people who went there, we automatically think they must be very smart. the quality of their students is the main factor we use to determine how good the school is, and therefore how prestigious it is.

talking about maximizing your chances of getting a job is PLACEMENT not PRESTIGE. get it right.

This is a forum for law students and aspiring law students. If you want to talk about law school prestige the way you seem to want to, you should find a forum for cocktail parties or pickup techniques.

[studylaw7]

placing NYU below CC is just stupid, so is putting Penn below MVB. The best way to measure prestige is by student quality, not some made-up peer assessment scores that are manipulated by the editors of USNWR to make sure the rankings end up the way they want it to.

The surveys are what the surveys are. But, if you prefer ranking "prestige" by statistics instead of opinion (which is what prestige actually is), then here is the list of schools ranked by the strength of the incoming classes:

Entering Class of 2009:
*Yale
*Harvard
Columbia: 172/3.69
NYU: 171/3.78
Chicago: 171/3.76
*Stanford
Virginia: 170/3.85
Penn: 170/3.82
Northwestern: 170/3.70
Georgetown: 170/3.68
Duke: 169/3.76
Michigan: 169/3.70
Berkeley: 168/3.83
Cornell: 167/3.61


* No data available. Estimated based on entering Class of 2008.



Edit: the purpose of this is really to show how asinine ranking prestige (e.g., opinion) based on class profiles is. Any of CCN more prestigious than Stanford? Yeah, OK. Plus, Stanford's numbers last year were pretty much identical to Virginia's this year (same LSAT, GPA off by only 0.02). I go to and love Virginia, but even I won't say that Virginia is as equally prestigious as Stanford (which your system would claim).

Also, Northwestern and Duke more prestigious than Michigan and Berkeley? Really?

our OPINION of student quality must be backed by stats, how else would we know which student body is better? It's still an opinion.

[Veyron]

Student quality is a poor way to measure school prestige. If you're a student trying to decide where to go, your own quality is static. You want to know which school will maximize your chances at getting the job you want; this is not really determined by your peers' LSAT scores.

our perception of schools is largely dictated by student quality. We don't think HYP are prestigious colleges just because of their names, it's because when we meet the people who went there, we automatically think they must be very smart. the quality of their students is the main factor we use to determine how good the school is, and therefore how prestigious it is.

talking about maximizing your chances of getting a job is PLACEMENT not PRESTIGE. get it right.

In this case, a list of (lay)prestige in AZ looks something like this:

HY

Georgetown; Duke; Stanford

U of A; ASU; Rest of T-14

This is why I care more about placement stats. At the end of the day, what what makes you prestigious is having a high quality well paying job.

[mallard]

showNprove, can you explain exactly why assessment scores would be an improvement on placement statistics?

[showNprove]

showNprove, I believe you may have confused 75th percentiles and medians for some of those schools.

I may have, but with the exception of NYU, I got all of this information from the schools' websites a few months ago. Someone can double check them if they wish--I don't stand by their absolute accuracy as I do the Assessment data--but I tried to be careful in gathering the information.

[studylaw7]

LOL at studylaw instructing mallard to GET IT RIGHT.

same goes for you, who is lying about going to CCN.

[mallard]

LOL at studylaw instructing mallard to GET IT RIGHT.

same goes for you, who is lying about going to CCN.

There are dozens, maybe hundreds of TLS members who can attest to dresden's CCN attendance.

[kurama20]

"Asshole" was not a retort--surely not anymore than you trying to negate my statistics by calling me a troll (which is exactly why I called you an asshole).

Tiers are arbitrary when they have no basis in fact. I simply laid out the plain observation of the groupings in the graph. It wasn't my decision, as is apparently your implication.

Simply because an online community found an easy way to group schools based on the fallible USNWR rankings doesn't mean that's reality. These surveys are more accurate of the opinions of people beyond 0L's and a small collection of students on the internet. If you don't like that it's different, complain to the judges who turn in the surveys.

The fact of the matter is that this is the truest thing that has been said in this thread. This online community has found it's own way of grouping and matching the schools that relies mainly on the overall numerical US News rankings. The fact is that it doesn't make it right. The surveys are obviously far more accurate, but many on here prefer looking at the schools in a certain way.