Take the money and Run; YS - CCNH? Forum

[NYSprague]

I don't disagree with any of you. I just think the incivility problem is like 95% 0L stupidity and 5% advice-givers stooping to their level. I can see from the lounge that letting things go, ending shitty exchanges, and ignoring stupidity has always been a challenge here at TLS (for all of us.)

I've said what I felt like saying here. PM me if you think I'm missing something. I've found the thread overall helpful so thank you.

Arguing against willful ignorance is incredibly annoying. Aggressively attacking posters who are trying to show errors in thinking is just asking to be slapped down.

People are invested in their choices, I suppose, and take it as a personal
attack if they are reminded that an extra 6 figures of debt for Harvard will be difficult to repay and most likely unnecessary for their careers.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I think part of the problem is that this is an on-topic thread involving a lot of lounge posters. For instance, when I don't stop to think about it, I tend to assume that people are relatively familiar with Desert Fox (see: Desert Fox thread!) and know how to read his tone and what to discount about his statements. I nearly responded, "Calm down, it's Desert Fox" a whole bunch of times. But that is probably unfair to a lot of 0Ls.

(Also totally agree with IAFG that it gets hard to respond politely when it's the 1700th time an 0L has made a particular argument, but that's not really fair to the 0Ls either. Though see: search function.)

[09042014]

I don't even think I've been that bad ITT.

[Theopliske8711]

TLS is a flat circle.

[rad lulz]

.

[emu42]

I know I promised to leave (and I will after this post), but what bothered me most about this thread is that no one really criticized my conclusion but rather the premises (that I erroneously brought up) that really had little to do with my conclusion. I get it: we're all lawyers or soon-to-be lawyers and if someone makes a logical misstep, you'd be dumb to not call him or her out on it and grind that person to pieces. But I think my ultimate argument (money isn't everything, don't pidgeonhole people) is valid and I was incessantly bashed for no real reason...things hadn't really gotten heated until Desert Fox decided to search my post history and find a thread where I asked what "in house" meant, and then trash me on both that thread and this one. People I speak to at law school seem to enjoy it on the whole, and yet I come here and am scoffed at for suggesting law school isn't necessarily a hellacious obstacle course to get to biglaw. When people started to tell me what makes me happy and act as though they were/are in my shoes, things took a turn for the worse. I'll be fine, thank you very much.

[IAFG]

I know I promised to leave (and I will after this post), but what bothered me most about this thread is that no one really criticized my conclusion but rather the premises (that I erroneously brought up) that really had little to do with my conclusion. I get it: we're all lawyers or soon-to-be lawyers and if someone makes a logical misstep, you'd be dumb to not call him or her out on it and grind that person to pieces. But I think my ultimate argument (money isn't everything, don't pidgeonhole people) is valid and I was incessantly bashed for no real reason...things hadn't really gotten heated until Desert Fox decided to search my post history and find a thread where I asked what "in house" meant, and then trash me on both that thread and this one. People I speak to at law school seem to enjoy it on the whole, and yet I come here and am scoffed at for suggesting law school isn't necessarily a hellacious obstacle course to get to biglaw. When people started to tell me what makes me happy and act as though they were/are in my shoes, things took a turn for the worse. I'll be fine, thank you very much.

Listen. You shouldn't spend 6 figures on a degree that actually narrows your career options on the assumption you'll be happy with one of the options you end up having (when you really have no idea what those even mean). Just because it's HARVARD, and just because the outcomes sound prestigious to you, doesn't make that a good plan. So yes, your premises matter a lot.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I enjoyed law school and I don't think it was a hellhole, and that's not really what people were scoffing at. Again, I don't think the thread was saying "money is everything." It said don't go into sticker debt because it constrains your choices, and that's true of even top schools that also open doors. DF didn't start saying "money is the only thing" until the conversation had already devolved. And even then, it was still as much about taking on debt as anything else.

[Saddle Up]

When it comes to choosing one school over the other the higher cost seems to only be a marginal concern. These are likely the same people who pass on a $30K car for a stripped down $20K car (because it’s a whopping $10K more) are signing on the line to pay $250K for a T-Big over a $150K Tier 1.

As long as the Gov’t hands out loans like jellybeans and people believe 3 years from now is an eternity, this thread will continue for years.

[09042014]

I know I promised to leave (and I will after this post), but what bothered me most about this thread is that no one really criticized my conclusion but rather the premises (that I erroneously brought up) that really had little to do with my conclusion. I get it: we're all lawyers or soon-to-be lawyers and if someone makes a logical misstep, you'd be dumb to not call him or her out on it and grind that person to pieces. But I think my ultimate argument (money isn't everything, don't pidgeonhole people) is valid and I was incessantly bashed for no real reason...things hadn't really gotten heated until Desert Fox decided to search my post history and find a thread where I asked what "in house" meant, and then trash me on both that thread and this one. People I speak to at law school seem to enjoy it on the whole, and yet I come here and am scoffed at for suggesting law school isn't necessarily a hellacious obstacle course to get to biglaw. When people started to tell me what makes me happy and act as though they were/are in my shoes, things took a turn for the worse. I'll be fine, thank you very much.

The problem is you equate "not having soul crushing debt" with "in it for the money." As if somehow the only reason debt matters is if you are in it for the money.

If you aren't in it for the money you should be jumping all over the Ruby offer. Because it would allow you to do whatever you want. When you have 300k of debt, you are forced to do big law or find a PI job and do it for 10 years whether you want it or not.

Also you seem to suggest law school is worth 300k of debt at 7.8% APR because law school is fun or because it's fulfilling. Even if it's true that you'll love law school, it's absolutely not worth 300k. Especially when you can get a virtually identical experience for cheaper.

I jumped on you because you incorrectly said most people at Yale going into PI/Academia and you argued with me about legal jobs when you don't even know the basics, like what the fuck an in house attorney is.

You are out of your element and you are emotionally tied to a decision you made. You are merely trying to defend that (poor) choice to yourself.

[09042014]

I enjoyed law school and I don't think it was a hellhole, and that's not really what people were scoffing at. Again, I don't think the thread was saying "money is everything." It said don't go into sticker debt because it constrains your choices, and that's true of even top schools that also open doors. DF didn't start saying "money is the only thing" until the conversation had already devolved. And even then, it was still as much about taking on debt as anything else.

Law sucks, money is the only good part.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I enjoyed law school and I don't think it was a hellhole, and that's not really what people were scoffing at. Again, I don't think the thread was saying "money is everything." It said don't go into sticker debt because it constrains your choices, and that's true of even top schools that also open doors. DF didn't start saying "money is the only thing" until the conversation had already devolved. And even then, it was still as much about taking on debt as anything else.

Law sucks, money is the only good part.

(Your post above actually said what I was trying to get at.)

[emu42]

Listen. You shouldn't spend 6 figures on a degree that actually narrows your career options on the assumption you'll be happy with one of the options you end up having (when you really have no idea what those even mean). Just because it's HARVARD, and just because the outcomes sound prestigious to you, doesn't make that a good plan. So yes, your premises matter a lot.

I don't want to work in biglaw my whole life. I want to clerk. I want the option of going into academia. Going to Harvard, without an absurd amount of debt, where biglaw is almost a fallback option, seems to validate my choice in addition to the other factors (which are numerous).

I enjoyed law school and I don't think it was a hellhole, and that's not really what people were scoffing at.

I'm not gonna go back and pull out quotes for you, but...yes, that was definitely scoffed at.

I jumped on you because you incorrectly said most people at Yale going into PI/Academia

I think this is actually true, especially down the road.

You are out of your element and you are emotionally tied to a decision you made. You are merely trying to defend that (poor) choice to yourself.

Haha, no. I'm very happy with my choice. You can stop telling what to do/what I'm thinking whenever you're ready.

[IAFG]

I enjoyed law school and I don't think it was a hellhole, and that's not really what people were scoffing at. Again, I don't think the thread was saying "money is everything." It said don't go into sticker debt because it constrains your choices, and that's true of even top schools that also open doors. DF didn't start saying "money is the only thing" until the conversation had already devolved. And even then, it was still as much about taking on debt as anything else.

Law sucks, money is the only good part.

I'm actually voluntarily researching a topic under my practice area right now. Curiosity piqued by an article I read to my husband on a roadtrip. I like law. It's interesting. Legal practice, not so much.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I enjoyed law school and I don't think it was a hellhole, and that's not really what people were scoffing at.

I'm not gonna go back and pull out quotes for you, but...yes, that was definitely scoffed at.

It was scoffed at because you'd already dug yourself into a hole and sounded naive about the whole process. If you hadn't, no one would have cared.

[rad lulz]

.

[09042014]

I enjoyed law school and I don't think it was a hellhole, and that's not really what people were scoffing at. Again, I don't think the thread was saying "money is everything." It said don't go into sticker debt because it constrains your choices, and that's true of even top schools that also open doors. DF didn't start saying "money is the only thing" until the conversation had already devolved. And even then, it was still as much about taking on debt as anything else.

Law sucks, money is the only good part.

I'm actually voluntarily researching a topic under my practice area right now. Curiosity piqued by an article I read to my husband on a roadtrip. I like law. It's interesting. Legal practice, not so much.

Yeah agree w this

The law is interesting

But being an associate is a ton of just grunt work

It's not just being an associate. It's practicing law.

The only person I can think of whose legal job sounds kinda okay is godspeed. But he's probably exaggerating.

And no, clerkiing isn't practicing law.

[IAFG]

No matter how hard DD tries to convince us otherwise, I'd like to do her job. But probs not for whatever it pays.

[Theopliske8711]

And no, clerkiing isn't practicing law.

I guess this is why at the CLS ASD's Clerkship seminar they informed us that a clerkship is often considered by many to be the funnest experience of their legal career.

[09042014]

And no, clerkiing isn't practicing law.

I guess this is why at the CLS ASD's Clerkship seminar they informed us that a clerkship is often considered by many to be the funnest experience of their legal career.

I have no doubt they are telling the truth.

[09042014]

No matter how hard DD tries to convince us otherwise, I'd like to do her job. But probs not for whatever it pays.

I'm calling shenanigans. You had your shot at impact lit in the Enviro clinic and you slacked off all summer and did nothing.

[IAFG]

No matter how hard DD tries to convince us otherwise, I'd like to do her job. But probs not for whatever it pays.

I'm calling shenanigans. You had your shot at impact lit in the Enviro clinic and you slacked off all summer and did nothing.

That's not at all what I did.

[dresden doll]

It's incomprehensible to me that a person's discomfort with debt somehow signals that they're just money hungry. Because, you know, those of us in PI have zero problem with the fact that we're in debt up to our eyeballs.

By the way, I'm basically a very special snowflake in that my job is of that unicorn national-advocacy-org-that-does-impact-lit variety, with decent pay, substantive assignments, guaranteed set raises each year (plenty of PI has been freezing salaries since 2009), excellent benefits and dream work hours/work life balance. It should tell you something that my posts aren't all cheer and rainbows. And I even like law and really care about our cause.

[09042014]

No matter how hard DD tries to convince us otherwise, I'd like to do her job. But probs not for whatever it pays.

I'm calling shenanigans. You had your shot at impact lit in the Enviro clinic and you slacked off all summer and did nothing.

That's not at all what I did.

Oh you were on the superfund stuff then? That was the worst project. You should have ELPC'd it up. They had lobbying and impact lit.

[Theopliske8711]

And no, clerkiing isn't practicing law.

I guess this is why at the CLS ASD's Clerkship seminar they informed us that a clerkship is often considered by many to be the funnest experience of their legal career.

I have no doubt they are telling the truth.

They actually told that very awkwardly. The person who said it felt the need to slightly retract it.