Class of 2013 Employment Data Forum

[worldtraveler]

I wish these statistics were also counting DOJ or other federal honors programs plus Skadden/EJW/Soros fellowships because those are all incredibly desirable outcomes and even harder to get in a lot of cases.

It doesn't really matter if your goal is to compare the schools since these aren't counted for anyone, and the A3 + Big Law number should correlate very well with the positions you mentioned.

Dude, no. Those positions are looking for very different things.

[03152016]

According to the Forbes ranking:

Yale
Mid-career pay: $165,000

Stanford
Mid-career pay: $217,300

Northwestern
Mid-career pay: $210,000

Columbia
Mid-career pay: $176,200

NYU
Mid-career pay: $177,800


If the A3 clerkships are so prestigious, why aren't Yale grads converting them to better post-clerkship salaries?

Is there a breakdown of CoA vs DC for the Yale A3 data?

How do they define mid-career? Those numbers look low to me.

FYI to everyone but the author of that piece is going to retract the story because the data are crap. Spent 75 minutes on the phone with her today, both talking about the problems and how she can remedy the problem she caused. Specifically, I am trying to convince her to persuade the editors to pull the piece entirely too. Either way, a new story with more clarity will be up next week -- and it will not include the mid-career pay. It's based on even fewer datapoints than the entry-level starting salaries we're all familiar with.

I was wondering about that article. Seemed like it would be hard to get accurate data on mid-career pay.

[rpupkin]

I'm not 100% sure, but are prestigious profs really making less than around 200k?

Most people who go into academia--even those who come out of YLS--aren't landing tenure track positions at T14 law schools. They're teaching all over the "prestige" spectrum, and many of those jobs pay under $200k. Even at some of the top schools, it can take a few years before you're making over $200K.

Anyway, the positions you're talking about are rare. Above, it was agreed that most clerks go to big law.

Government and PI positions really aren't that rare for YLS grads. And while it is true that most clerks go into big law, I've noticed that many YLS clerks do not.

[papercut]

I wish these statistics were also counting DOJ or other federal honors programs plus Skadden/EJW/Soros fellowships because those are all incredibly desirable outcomes and even harder to get in a lot of cases.

It doesn't really matter if your goal is to compare the schools since these aren't counted for anyone, and the A3 + Big Law number should correlate very well with the positions you mentioned.

Dude, no. Those positions are looking for very different things.

Not really. They're looking at grades and school prestige first.

[jumpin munkey]

I think Columbia is definitely worth a bit more money than several of the other t14s based on their employment numbers. At the lower t14 you're in desperate shape at or below median. Not so much at Columbia.

Totally agree. Criticism is mainly directed at people trying to break up the lower end of the T14 into neat little tiers

ETA if by desperate shape you mean striking out at OCI, absolutely. But you're not going to go hungry with a diploma from one of those schools. You just might not end up with that market-paying gig at a huge firm after graduation.

Well, in your first post you basically said that outside HYS (which is a dumb tier -- Harvard is not a peer of Yale, either from an admissions or jobs standpoint), there's little difference between the schools, which isn't true unless you have a different definition of little than I do. Chicago is not Michigan, NYU is not Georgetown, and Columbia is not Duke. Finely parsing the year to year statistics between Northwestern and Cornell is pretty futile, agreed, but "the outside HYS, all the same" line is obviously not true.

[fringles]

In fairness, though, I think those who are compiling the stats on here recognize that they're just a crude measure of employment outcomes. Better than nothing (and certainly better than the USNWR rankings), but far from perfect.

No doubt. The current law students here know that very well. The problem is there are lurkers and 0Ls here reading this thinking these numbers say much more than they actually do. As a 0L lurker I was a victim of a TLS dramatization. I basically made my law school decision based on the T10/T14 distinction when it may not have been the right call in hindsight.

[papercut]

According to the Forbes ranking:

Yale
Mid-career pay: $165,000

Stanford
Mid-career pay: $217,300

Northwestern
Mid-career pay: $210,000

Columbia
Mid-career pay: $176,200

NYU
Mid-career pay: $177,800


If the A3 clerkships are so prestigious, why aren't Yale grads converting them to better post-clerkship salaries?

Is there a breakdown of CoA vs DC for the Yale A3 data?

How do they define mid-career? Those numbers look low to me.

FYI to everyone but the author of that piece is going to retract the story because the data are crap. Spent 75 minutes on the phone with her today, both talking about the problems and how she can remedy the problem she caused. Specifically, I am trying to convince her to persuade the editors to pull the piece entirely too. Either way, a new story with more clarity will be up next week -- and it will not include the mid-career pay. It's based on even fewer datapoints than the entry-level starting salaries we're all familiar with.

What did their p-values look like?

[ms9]

According to the Forbes ranking:

Yale
Mid-career pay: $165,000

Stanford
Mid-career pay: $217,300

Northwestern
Mid-career pay: $210,000

Columbia
Mid-career pay: $176,200

NYU
Mid-career pay: $177,800


If the A3 clerkships are so prestigious, why aren't Yale grads converting them to better post-clerkship salaries?

Is there a breakdown of CoA vs DC for the Yale A3 data?

How do they define mid-career? Those numbers look low to me.

FYI to everyone but the author of that piece is going to retract the story because the data are crap. Spent 75 minutes on the phone with her today, both talking about the problems and how she can remedy the problem she caused. Specifically, I am trying to convince her to persuade the editors to pull the piece entirely too. Either way, a new story with more clarity will be up next week -- and it will not include the mid-career pay. It's based on even fewer datapoints than the entry-level starting salaries we're all familiar with.

Funny, I almost said "someone should channel jenesaislaw" on this, I bet he can illuminate.

[worldtraveler]

In fairness, though, I think those who are compiling the stats on here recognize that they're just a crude measure of employment outcomes. Better than nothing (and certainly better than the USNWR rankings), but far from perfect.

No doubt. The current law students here know that very well. The problem is there are lurkers and 0Ls here reading this thinking these numbers say much more than they actually do. As a 0L lurker I was a victim of a TLS dramatization. I basically made my law school decision based on the T10/T14 distinction when it may not have been the right call in hindsight.

Yeah I feel like these are fairly misleading stats actually.

[rpupkin]

It doesn't matter. The prestigious boutique firm jobs should correlate with the a3 + big law numbers, so you still have a good basis for comparing the schools.

That's not quite true. I'll see if I can find a link to Brian Lieter's compilation of boutique placement among the top 15 or so schools. If I recall correctly, Chicago and Boalt tended to perform better than their peers, while Penn and Cornell fared worse. But we're really just talking about the difference of 3-5 students a year. Not a big deal.

Did Boalt release their stats yet?

Nope.

[BigZuck]

Student at T14 here. I've been talking with my school's career services a lot lately and generally trying to see what my options will be after graduation. Jumping in here because this thread needs to get back on track. I have no skin in this game, I just want to keep 0Ls from relying on this garbage subtier stuff.

The only meaningful distinction among the top schools is:

YHS
Rest of T14

(Yes, at equal price, Y over Columbia; Columbia over Cornell; maybe even Cornell over Georgetown- I'll concede that Georgetown may actually be in decline)

People here seem to acknowledge that this metric of firms of 101+ and fed clerkships is imperfect, then we go ahead remaking these tiers again relying on this data. The point occasionally comes up that people at NYU/Michigan/Georgetown self-select into non-firm jobs. The thread generally agrees with it, but then this subtier stuff wins out.

Do you really think that these schools' PI focus can't account for the 5 percentage points that separate them from their traditional peers? When people decide on a law school, they'll decide to go to the school that they can most associate with - it's not like there is a perfectly equal distribution of people who want to go into private practice and those who do not. Sure, many (most?) people who go in thinking that decide later to do a few years of firm work first. But don't you think the schools that have historically been strong at placing into PI keep more people on this track? Again, we're not taking into account here the people who specifically chose school X because of their PI focus.

Obviously there are other factors. A school's career services might not be getting the right firms to come to OCI. They might not be making their students good interviewers. But to assume this, or that all the sudden law firms have changed their hiring practices, in face of the fact that these PI-focused schools tend to attract the people who won't help their firm/fed. clerkship numbers (or even LST numbers), is not something we can do with the information we have. We shouldn't be doing anything with these numbers besides pointing out that Georgetown does seem to be in decline, Columbia is kicking ass, Penn may actually be distinguishing itself from its peer, or broad generalizations like that. That is literally all we can do. NU is not better than UVA. Cornell is not better than NU. Duke is not better than Michigan. Penn is not better than NYU. This is all garbage and useless and could be dangerous for 0Ls who actually believe all of this T12, CCNP, stuff to be true.

Anyway, simple point here is that a difference in >10 percentage points isn't going to tell you anything at all. It just won't. We'd be assuming way too much and those assumptions would be in conflict with many things we commonly believe to be true about certain law schools' student bodies and the nature of post-grad hiring (for example, people may prefer mid-sized firms to larger ones or wanted a state/local clerkship before starting to practice).

You're way too concerned about people making obvious jokes

Lol Michigan and Georgetown though. Seriously.

[fringles]

I think Columbia is definitely worth a bit more money than several of the other t14s based on their employment numbers. At the lower t14 you're in desperate shape at or below median. Not so much at Columbia.

Totally agree. Criticism is mainly directed at people trying to break up the lower end of the T14 into neat little tiers

ETA if by desperate shape you mean striking out at OCI, absolutely. But you're not going to go hungry with a diploma from one of those schools. You just might not end up with that market-paying gig at a huge firm after graduation.

Well, in your first post you basically said that outside HYS (which is a dumb tier -- Harvard is not a peer of Yale, either from an admissions or jobs standpoint), there's little difference between the schools, which isn't true unless you have a different definition of little than I do. Chicago is not Michigan, NYU is not Georgetown, and Columbia is not Duke. Finely parsing the year to year statistics between Northwestern and Cornell is pretty futile, agreed, but "the outside HYS, all the same" line is obviously not true.

Absolutely, I guess I did present that wrong. I just didn't want to break it down too finely because beyond Y>HS>CC.... it's kind of hard to put it into tiers anymore.

[papercut]

I think Columbia is definitely worth a bit more money than several of the other t14s based on their employment numbers. At the lower t14 you're in desperate shape at or below median. Not so much at Columbia.

Totally agree. Criticism is mainly directed at people trying to break up the lower end of the T14 into neat little tiers

ETA if by desperate shape you mean striking out at OCI, absolutely. But you're not going to go hungry with a diploma from one of those schools. You just might not end up with that market-paying gig at a huge firm after graduation.

Well, in your first post you basically said that outside HYS (which is a dumb tier -- Harvard is not a peer of Yale, either from an admissions or jobs standpoint), there's little difference between the schools, which isn't true unless you have a different definition of little than I do. Chicago is not Michigan, NYU is not Georgetown, and Columbia is not Duke. Finely parsing the year to year statistics between Northwestern and Cornell is pretty futile, agreed, but "the outside HYS, all the same" line is obviously not true.

Absolutely, I guess I did present that wrong. I just didn't want to break it down too finely because beyond Y>HS>CC.... it's kind of hard to put it into tiers anymore.

If H doesn't belong with Y, then H doesn't belong with S either. YS > HCC makes more sense.

[jenesaislaw]

What did their p-values look like?

42

[20141023]

.

[fringles]

You're way too concerned about people making obvious jokes

Lol Michigan and Georgetown though. Seriously.

Michigan is 3 points behind Duke now? You really think there can't possibly be 3% more people at Michigan who self-select into public interest than there are at Duke? That's what you're saying.

I can only speak for one school personally, but I do know people from both of those schools and frankly I wouldn't be surprised if the number wasn't much higher than 3 percentage points. Point is, we can't possibly know. But NYU/Michigan/Georgetown are more PI-focused, so we should take this into account. Beyond that, who knows? That only leaves us with a pretty broad picture of how schools are doing. That's all these numbers are good for.

[worldtraveler]

I thought UCI was supposed to be some kind of PI oriented school? #s definitely aren't showing that.

[yost]

You're way too concerned about people making obvious jokes

Lol Michigan and Georgetown though. Seriously.

Michigan is 3 points behind Duke now? You really think there can't possibly be 3% more people at Michigan who self-select into public interest than there are at Duke? That's what you're saying.

I can only speak for one school personally, but I do know people from both of those schools and frankly I wouldn't be surprised if the number wasn't much higher than 3 percentage points. Point is, we can't possibly know. But NYU/Michigan/Georgetown are more PI-focused, so we should take this into account. Beyond that, who knows? That only leaves us with a pretty broad picture of how schools are doing. That's all these numbers are good for.

Don't worry about BigZuck. From my short time on TLS, it's obvious he has an ax to grind with Michigan. Closet OSU undergrad maybe? Who knows.

[Blessedassurance]

That's not quite true. I'll see if I can find a link to Brian Lieter's compilation of boutique placement among the top 15 or so schools.

that leiter "elite boutique" ranking is garbage.

[papercut]

What did their p-values look like?

42

Ah, okay then. Looking forward to the revision.

[jbagelboy]

Lol UCI. The haters are going to be all over that 23% unemployed figure. (and the apologists will start spinning their anecdata about all the people getting jobs eleven months after graduation, naturally outside the jurisdiction of ABA).

I don't see great things happening there...

[Big Dog]

FYI to everyone but the author of that piece is going to retract the story because the data are crap.

dunno know you would waste your time, jenes.

I realize that many/most? law types are lit majors, but as any AP Stat student knows, voluntary self-reported anecdotes -- such as Payscale -- is NOT data. Of course, journalists are even more math-challenged that law types, so they continue to publish such sources as "real".

I thought UCI was supposed to be some kind of PI oriented school? #s definitely aren't showing that

Few PI firms in The OC. Thus, UCI grads have to compete in LA against, UCLA, USC, Loyola,,,,

[Blessedassurance]

this is the leiter stuff you're looking for...surprise surprise, chicago is on top:

http://www.leiterrankings.com/new/2012_Boutiques.shtml

[Cobretti]

What did their p-values look like?

42

you mean .42 R-squared? p-value above .1 is garbage... if they even published that I'd be shocked.

Or was this just a reminder to not forget our towels?

[papercut]

What did their p-values look like?

42

you mean .42 R-squared? p-value above .1 is garbage... if they even published that I'd be shocked.

Or was this just a reminder to not forget our towels?

I thought he meant .42 p-value...