Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School Forum

[Keilz]

I have a question, perhaps for anyone who has the full US news breakdown.

Does US News only consider general "employment" rate after 9 mos?

Also, what makes Michigan rank so consistently high? and Cornell so low?

Peer assessment factors significantly into a school's ranking.

T-14 Peer Assessment Ranking, 10-year Average (2009-2018):

4.81 Yale

4.81 Harvard

4.76 Stanford

4.64 Columbia

4.62 Chicago

4.49 NYU

4.46 Berkeley

4.45 Michigan

4.36 Virginia

4.34 Pennsylvania

4.21 Duke

4.19 Cornell

4.14 Georgetown

4.10 Northwestern

4.07 Texas

Cool, thanks!

[existentialcrisis]

Is the general concencus here that the "self selection" argument for why Berkeley has lower #s for BL+FC is accurate? Or do people think it's generally harder for someone shooting for biglaw to get it out of Berkeley? Asking for a friend.

I always found the self selection argument kinda ridiculous.

I don't think it is

I agree, otherwise you have to conclude that a ton of firms have substantially different grade cutoffs for say, boalt vs Cornell, which seems unlikely.

[Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash]

A majority of students at several schools that ultimately clerk are now doing so beyond 9mo after graduation.

I don't want to derail the thread, but I am interested in this. Do students who clerk beyond 9 months after graduation generally secure the clerkship while in law school and defer it for a couple of years or do they apply from biglaw?

Both. Many judges are hiring so far out now that even applying fall of 2L means getting your clerkship a year or two after graduation. By 3L, nearly any judge in a desirable location will have filled all their spots for the next year and often for the year after as well. These are all law student clerks. Then there are the 'alumni clerks' who apply once they've graduated (typically as junior associates at law firms). These individuals fit a slightly different profile. What drives the selection criteria for both groups is increasingly an emphasis on clerks (esp district court clerks) having some litigation experience before they start in chambers. That's not a requirement for every judge obviously but its become more common especially for judges in competitive locations (e.g. SDNY and CDCal.)

Stupid 0L question but:

What do people who have secured a clerkship 2L for 2 years after graduation do for two years?

Do they work I'm Big Law explicitly stating they will be gone for a year to clerk? Do they not mention it? Do they do other yearly things like fellowships?

[Tiago Splitter]

They work biglaw. It happens all the time at the big firms.

[jbagelboy]

A majority of students at several schools that ultimately clerk are now doing so beyond 9mo after graduation.

I don't want to derail the thread, but I am interested in this. Do students who clerk beyond 9 months after graduation generally secure the clerkship while in law school and defer it for a couple of years or do they apply from biglaw?

Both. Many judges are hiring so far out now that even applying fall of 2L means getting your clerkship a year or two after graduation. By 3L, nearly any judge in a desirable location will have filled all their spots for the next year and often for the year after as well. These are all law student clerks. Then there are the 'alumni clerks' who apply once they've graduated (typically as junior associates at law firms). These individuals fit a slightly different profile. What drives the selection criteria for both groups is increasingly an emphasis on clerks (esp district court clerks) having some litigation experience before they start in chambers. That's not a requirement for every judge obviously but its become more common especially for judges in competitive locations (e.g. SDNY and CDCal.)

Stupid 0L question but:

What do people who have secured a clerkship 2L for 2 years after graduation do for two years?

Do they work I'm Big Law explicitly stating they will be gone for a year to clerk? Do they not mention it? Do they do other yearly things like fellowships?

There are some PI-focused persons that leave to clerk, but my guess is that most people graduating, for example, in 2016, with a 2018-19 clerkship (which is fairly common), will go back to their summer law firm for two years. The firms know and understand that the persons have clerkships. Probably one year out is still more common, but as the trend continues it will just push further back.

[star fox]

Federal Judges actually have an expression called "Columbia'ing" when they get a really shitty brief submitted to them.

[Thelaw23]

Hahahaha silly University of Ch(Iraq).
Higher than Columbia ranking? Very sad!!

[star fox]

UChicago grads writing the drafts for LANDMARK Supreme Court decisions while Columbia grads weep at knowing the only "clerking" they'll be doing is at the grocery store checkout line.

[Lavitz]

All because Trump sent in the Fed(eral clerk)s to Chicago.

[Keilz]

University of Ch(Iraq).

[PeanutsNJam]

Is the general concencus here that the "self selection" argument for why Berkeley has lower #s for BL+FC is accurate? Or do people think it's generally harder for someone shooting for biglaw to get it out of Berkeley? Asking for a friend.

I always found the self selection argument kinda ridiculous.

I don't think it is

I agree, otherwise you have to conclude that a ton of firms have substantially different grade cutoffs for say, boalt vs Cornell, which seems unlikely.

Boalt also has excellent FC numbers (it's above 10% right?), so I doubt that biglaw firms are turning their nose up at Boalt. I don't think self selection explains it all, but idk, it can't be that hiring partners are like "eww Boalt??"

[jbagelboy]

Is the general concencus here that the "self selection" argument for why Berkeley has lower #s for BL+FC is accurate? Or do people think it's generally harder for someone shooting for biglaw to get it out of Berkeley? Asking for a friend.

I always found the self selection argument kinda ridiculous.

I don't think it is

I agree, otherwise you have to conclude that a ton of firms have substantially different grade cutoffs for say, boalt vs Cornell, which seems unlikely.

Boalt also has excellent FC numbers (it's above 10% right?), so I doubt that biglaw firms are turning their nose up at Boalt. I don't think self selection explains it all, but idk, it can't be that hiring partners are like "eww Boalt??"

there's zero connection between these things so this argument is nonsensical. Top boalt students get clerkships. That doesn't make below median Boalt students more favorable to law firms.

[star fox]

How many is median at BOALT?

[PeanutsNJam]

there's zero connection between these things so this argument is nonsensical. Top boalt students get clerkships. That doesn't make below median Boalt students more favorable to law firms.

Yes but more top boalt students get clerkships than top students at other T13. That's self selection, but boalt's BL # isn't?

[existentialcrisis]

Is the general concencus here that the "self selection" argument for why Berkeley has lower #s for BL+FC is accurate? Or do people think it's generally harder for someone shooting for biglaw to get it out of Berkeley? Asking for a friend.

I always found the self selection argument kinda ridiculous.

I don't think it is

I agree, otherwise you have to conclude that a ton of firms have substantially different grade cutoffs for say, boalt vs Cornell, which seems unlikely.

Boalt also has excellent FC numbers (it's above 10% right?), so I doubt that biglaw firms are turning their nose up at Boalt. I don't think self selection explains it all, but idk, it can't be that hiring partners are like "eww Boalt??"

there's zero connection between these things so this argument is nonsensical. Top boalt students get clerkships. That doesn't make below median Boalt students more favorable to law firms.

Yea, but do you think below Median Boalt students are less favorable to NY firms than UVA or Duke students with the same grades? I assume no, but I've never been involved in hiring, so I don't actually know.

My theory would be that below median Berk students are less likely to bid NYC, and hence less likely to land firms at OCI.

[slurp]

It may be that many Berk students strike out targeting CA when they should have gunned for NYC if they really wanted biglaw

Edit: scooped

[curry1]

Hahahaha silly University of Ch(Iraq).
Higher than Columbia ranking? Very sad!!

CLS students enjoying crippling debt and 2500 hour years at Paul Weiss, while Chicago students enjoy feeder clerkships and huge bonuses.

[PeanutsNJam]

Yeah, the CA legal market ain't big enought for Stanford/Boalt/UCLA/USC, much less the countless other T1/TT law schools in that state.

[RParadela]

Nebby in the fight of his life to not immediately update the OP.

Done

Fordham at 41.9%

Odds of Fordham beating UT?

Would probably be the first time a T40 tops a T14

Thats why its the t13 now, not t14. We have been through this already. Really the argument seems to be moving to t11 now. Berkeley and Michigan are moving to regional status too with these TTTT numbers.

Finally someone gets it!

[registering]

Is the general concencus here that the "self selection" argument for why Berkeley has lower #s for BL+FC is accurate? Or do people think it's generally harder for someone shooting for biglaw to get it out of Berkeley? Asking for a friend.

I always found the self selection argument kinda ridiculous.

I don't think it is

I agree, otherwise you have to conclude that a ton of firms have substantially different grade cutoffs for say, boalt vs Cornell, which seems unlikely.

Boalt also has excellent FC numbers (it's above 10% right?), so I doubt that biglaw firms are turning their nose up at Boalt. I don't think self selection explains it all, but idk, it can't be that hiring partners are like "eww Boalt??"

there's zero connection between these things so this argument is nonsensical. Top boalt students get clerkships. That doesn't make below median Boalt students more favorable to law firms.

Yea, but do you think below Median Boalt students are less favorable to NY firms than UVA or Duke students with the same grades? I assume no, but I've never been involved in hiring, so I don't actually know.

My theory would be that below median Berk students are less likely to bid NYC, and hence less likely to land firms at OCI.

Going off 2005-2008 NLJ stuff, Berk and Mich students topped the T14 for public interest (followed by NYU, Columbia, Stanford and Yale). If they have something like NYU where they give out full rides to a fraction of PI kids every year, I could see that artificially deflating their placement to an extent (since I doubt PI kids are just going to slack off and end up bottom 10%). There are probably a good number of kids at all T14s that would've done PI straight out of school if they didn't have loans to pay off.

Beyond that, I agree that Berk just has a shitty home market and NYC is so far away that a lot of them just don't bid there, or can't articulate why they went to Berk to land a job in NYC. Berk being in the middle of the pack usually suggests that a good chunk of their kids (not the reverse splitters they love to take) could've gone to a lower T14 closer to NYC/DC, but self-selected to Berk for some reason, most likely to target or stay in the CA market.

[UVA2B]

I feel like the number of line gaps provided by Nebby should be discounted since, you know, transfer...

[star fox]

Going off 2005-2008 NLJ stuff, Berk and Mich students topped the T14 for public interest (followed by NYU, Columbia, Stanford and Yale). If they have something like NYU where they give out full rides to a fraction of PI kids every year, I could see that artificially deflating their placement to an extent (since I doubt PI kids are just going to slack off and end up bottom 10%). There are probably a good number of kids at all T14s that would've done PI straight out of school if they didn't have loans to pay off.

Beyond that, I agree that Berk just has a shitty home market and NYC is so far away that a lot of them just don't bid there, or can't articulate why they went to Berk to land a job in NYC. Berk being in the middle of the pack usually suggests that a good chunk of their kids (not the reverse splitters they love to take) could've gone to a lower T14 closer to NYC/DC, but self-selected to Berk for some reason, most likely to target or stay in the CA market.

What a lame excuse. They could just do PSLF if they're a true believer. The reason they don't do PI is because BigLaw is often the path of least resistance, getting a job before 2L even starts is comforting, and people are inherently selfish creatures who like making money.

[curry1]

Going off 2005-2008 NLJ stuff, Berk and Mich students topped the T14 for public interest (followed by NYU, Columbia, Stanford and Yale). If they have something like NYU where they give out full rides to a fraction of PI kids every year, I could see that artificially deflating their placement to an extent (since I doubt PI kids are just going to slack off and end up bottom 10%). There are probably a good number of kids at all T14s that would've done PI straight out of school if they didn't have loans to pay off.

Beyond that, I agree that Berk just has a shitty home market and NYC is so far away that a lot of them just don't bid there, or can't articulate why they went to Berk to land a job in NYC. Berk being in the middle of the pack usually suggests that a good chunk of their kids (not the reverse splitters they love to take) could've gone to a lower T14 closer to NYC/DC, but self-selected to Berk for some reason, most likely to target or stay in the CA market.

What a lame excuse. They could just do PSLF if they're a true believer. The reason they don't do PI is because BigLaw is often the path of least resistance, getting a job before 2L even starts is comforting, and people are inherently selfish creatures who like making money.

especially the set of people who go to t14's, who largely come from UMC backgrounds

[Johann]

Is the general concencus here that the "self selection" argument for why Berkeley has lower #s for BL+FC is accurate? Or do people think it's generally harder for someone shooting for biglaw to get it out of Berkeley? Asking for a friend.

I always found the self selection argument kinda ridiculous.

I don't think it is

I agree, otherwise you have to conclude that a ton of firms have substantially different grade cutoffs for say, boalt vs Cornell, which seems unlikely.

Boalt also has excellent FC numbers (it's above 10% right?), so I doubt that biglaw firms are turning their nose up at Boalt. I don't think self selection explains it all, but idk, it can't be that hiring partners are like "eww Boalt??"

another friendly reminder that boutiques (which often pay >market now) are not included in BL/FC. its not like these self selection problems are unique to mich and boalt. stanford and yale seem to have a little bit of them too. theres absolutely something bigger at play (since we know firms dont have different hiring standards between mich/boalt/NU/duke/penn etc)

[UVA2B]

Is the general concencus here that the "self selection" argument for why Berkeley has lower #s for BL+FC is accurate? Or do people think it's generally harder for someone shooting for biglaw to get it out of Berkeley? Asking for a friend.

I always found the self selection argument kinda ridiculous.

I don't think it is

I agree, otherwise you have to conclude that a ton of firms have substantially different grade cutoffs for say, boalt vs Cornell, which seems unlikely.

Boalt also has excellent FC numbers (it's above 10% right?), so I doubt that biglaw firms are turning their nose up at Boalt. I don't think self selection explains it all, but idk, it can't be that hiring partners are like "eww Boalt??"

another friendly reminder that boutiques (which often pay >market now) are not included in BL/FC. its not like these self selection problems are unique to mich and boalt. stanford and yale seem to have a little bit of them too. theres absolutely something bigger at play (since we know firms dont have different hiring standards between mich/boalt/NU/duke/penn etc)

This is simultaneously important and unquantifiable, and something I've struggled with. I personally know several UVA grads who are in the lost numbers from class of 2016 who are in market paying jobs outside BL+FC. You can't take credit for these jobs reliably, but they're undoubtedly more likely from T13 than from lower tier schools. It's unfair to include numbers from <100 attorney firms for sake of uniformity, but it's a non-negligent number from all of the T13 ending up in desirable smaller firms.