Class of 2013 Employment Data Forum

[logicspeaks]

UCI is finally up: http://www.law.uci.edu/careers/students ... -2013.html

15.4% + 17.8% = 33.3%

The part that's scary is that 21.4% of the class is unemployed.

[BigZuck]

I feel like this thread is way too focused on ranking schools against each other, and not focused enough on the fact that hiring is up from c/o 2012 nearly across the board... We should all be happy.

(shameless Michigan/Georgetown apologist)

[BigZuck]

UCI is finally up: http://www.law.uci.edu/careers/students ... -2013.html

15.4% + 17.8% = 33.3%

The part that's scary is that 21.4% of the class is unemployed.

Good chunk in 2-10 firms

Not good

[justonemoregame]

Why are UCI kids able to get clerkships - because Chemerinsky said so?

[Cobretti]

I feel like this thread is way too focused on ranking schools against each other, and not focused enough on the fact that hiring is up from c/o 2012 nearly across the board... We should all be happy.

(shameless Michigan/Georgetown apologist)

I go to NU...

But my point was the markets are rebounding, probably more than people are comfortable acknowledging

[BigZuck]

I feel like this thread is way too focused on ranking schools against each other, and not focused enough on the fact that hiring is up from c/o 2012 nearly across the board... We should all be happy.

(shameless Michigan/Georgetown apologist)

I go to NU

I know

(was joking)

[zman]

UCI is finally up: http://www.law.uci.edu/careers/students ... -2013.html

15.4% + 17.8% = 33.3%

The part that's scary is that 21.4% of the class is unemployed.

It's called california.. THERE IS TOO MANY grads and t-14 grads flood the state. It would be a lot worse if it wasn't for chereminsky's connections..

[Cobretti]

I feel like this thread is way too focused on ranking schools against each other, and not focused enough on the fact that hiring is up from c/o 2012 nearly across the board... We should all be happy.

(shameless Michigan/Georgetown apologist)

I go to NU

I know

(was joking)

Just setting the record straight, fuck Michigan

[20141023]

.

[Blessedassurance]

Just setting the record straight, fuck Michigan

180 unexpected outburst

[BentleyLittle]

Why are UCI kids able to get clerkships - because Chemerinsky said so?

[papercut]

clerkships aren't gold medals. most people who do clerkships end up in biglaw anyways, where they quickly find corporate has more exit options than lit, in general, and that ability to draft a brief is only incidental to making partner.

people salivate over clerkships because the gunners before them did it, and most of their professors (at hys, in particular) always tell stories about how enjoyable their clerkships were and that everyone should do it.

Yeah, a majority end up going into biglaw anyway even if they're able to do back-to-back clerkships. However, what I am saying is that, generally speaking, "federal clerkship" is perceived to be the most prestigious category on the schools' employment summary reports because we know exactly what it is (compared to categories like "government" or "public interest" jobs where it is hard to tell what people are actually doing just from the raw numbers).

Even "biglaw" in this instance is a misnomer because what most people are referring to is the V100 (or maybe the NLJ250) - firms which pay market and are in major cities. However, there are a ton of firms in smaller markets that pay <$100,000 a year, but which have hundreds of employees. These are all being counted as "biglaw" based on the metric we're using here.

According to the Forbes ranking:

Yale
Mid-career pay: $165,000

Stanford
Mid-career pay: $217,300

Northwestern
Mid-career pay: $210,000

Columbia
Mid-career pay: $176,200

NYU
Mid-career pay: $177,800


If the A3 clerkships are so prestigious, why aren't Yale grads converting them to better post-clerkship salaries?

Is there a breakdown of CoA vs DC for the Yale A3 data?

[papercut]

Also according the USN Yale has the same rep ranking among lawyers/judges as Columbia and Chicago.

I think they get too much of boost from the academics' rating.

[fringles]

Student at T14 here. I've been talking with my school's career services a lot lately and generally trying to see what my options will be after graduation. Jumping in here because this thread needs to get back on track. I have no skin in this game, I just want to keep 0Ls from relying on this garbage subtier stuff.

The only meaningful distinction among the top schools is:

YHS
Rest of T14

(Yes, at equal price, Y over Columbia; Columbia over Cornell; maybe even Cornell over Georgetown- I'll concede that Georgetown may actually be in decline)

People here seem to acknowledge that this metric of firms of 101+ and fed clerkships is imperfect, then we go ahead remaking these tiers again relying on this data. The point occasionally comes up that people at NYU/Michigan/Georgetown self-select into non-firm jobs. The thread generally agrees with it, but then this subtier stuff wins out.

Do you really think that these schools' PI focus can't account for the 5 percentage points that separate them from their traditional peers? When people decide on a law school, they'll decide to go to the school that they can most associate with - it's not like there is a perfectly equal distribution of people who want to go into private practice and those who do not. Sure, many (most?) people who go in thinking that decide later to do a few years of firm work first. But don't you think the schools that have historically been strong at placing into PI keep more people on this track? Again, we're not taking into account here the people who specifically chose school X because of their PI focus.

Obviously there are other factors. A school's career services might not be getting the right firms to come to OCI. They might not be making their students good interviewers. But to assume this, or that all the sudden law firms have changed their hiring practices, in face of the fact that these PI-focused schools tend to attract the people who won't help their firm/fed. clerkship numbers (or even LST numbers), is not something we can do with the information we have. We shouldn't be doing anything with these numbers besides pointing out that Georgetown does seem to be in decline, Columbia is kicking ass, Penn may actually be distinguishing itself from its peer, or broad generalizations like that. That is literally all we can do. NU is not better than UVA. Cornell is not better than NU. Duke is not better than Michigan. Penn is not better than NYU. This is all garbage and useless and could be dangerous for 0Ls who actually believe all of this T12, CCNP, stuff to be true.

Anyway, simple point here is that a difference in >10 percentage points isn't going to tell you anything at all. It just won't. We'd be assuming way too much and those assumptions would be in conflict with many things we commonly believe to be true about certain law schools' student bodies and the nature of post-grad hiring (for example, people may prefer mid-sized firms to larger ones or wanted a state/local clerkship before starting to practice).

[papercut]

Student at T14 here. I've been talking with my school's career services a lot lately and generally trying to see what my options will be after graduation. Jumping in here because this thread needs to get back on track. I have no skin in this game, I just want to keep 0Ls from relying on this garbage subtier stuff.

The only meaningful distinction among the top schools is:

YHS
Rest of T14

(Yes, at equal price, Y over Columbia; Columbia over Cornell; maybe even Cornell over Georgetown- I'll concede that Georgetown may actually be in decline)

People here seem to acknowledge that this metric of firms of 101+ and fed clerkships is imperfect, then we go ahead remaking these tiers again relying on this data. The point occasionally comes up that people at NYU/Michigan/Georgetown self-select into non-firm jobs. The thread generally agrees with it, but then this subtier stuff wins out.

Do you really think that these schools' PI focus can't account for the 5 percentage points that separate them from their traditional peers? When people decide on a law school, they'll decide to go to the school that they can most associate with - it's not like there is a perfectly equal distribution of people who want to go into private practice and those who do not. Sure, many (most?) people who go in thinking that decide later to do a few years of firm work first. But don't you think the schools that have historically been strong at placing into PI keep more people on this track? Again, we're not taking into account here the people who specifically chose school X because of their PI focus.

Obviously there are other factors. A school's career services might not be getting the right firms to come to OCI. They might not be making their students good interviewers. But to assume this, or that all the sudden law firms have changed their hiring practices, in face of the fact that these PI-focused schools tend to attract the people who won't help their firm/fed. clerkship numbers (or even LST numbers), is not something we can do with the information we have. We shouldn't be doing anything with these numbers besides pointing out that Georgetown does seem to be in decline, Columbia is kicking ass, Penn may actually be distinguishing itself from its peer, or broad generalizations like that. That is literally all we can do. NU is not better than UVA. Cornell is not better than NU. Duke is not better than Michigan. Penn is not better than NYU. This is all garbage and useless and could be dangerous for 0Ls who actually believe all of this T12, CCNP, stuff to be true.

Anyway, simple point here is that a difference in >10 percentage points isn't going to tell you anything at all. It just won't. We'd be assuming way too much and those assumptions would be in conflict with many things we commonly believe to be true about certain law schools' student bodies and the nature of post-grad hiring (for example, people may prefer mid-sized firms to larger ones or wanted a state/local clerkship before starting to practice).

I think Columbia is definitely worth a bit more money than several of the other t14s based on their employment numbers. At the lower t14 you're in desperate shape at or below median. Not so much at Columbia.

[rpupkin]

According to the Forbes ranking:

Yale
Mid-career pay: $165,000

Stanford
Mid-career pay: $217,300

Northwestern
Mid-career pay: $210,000

Columbia
Mid-career pay: $176,200

NYU
Mid-career pay: $177,800


If the A3 clerkships are so prestigious, why aren't Yale grads converting them to better post-clerkship salaries?

Because many of the "prestigious" positions in law pay considerably less then what run-of-the-mill associates make at big law firms. Law professors, federal government attorneys, and elite PI lawyers generally make less (and in some cases considerably less) than $200K a year.

[ms9]

According to the Forbes ranking:

Yale
Mid-career pay: $165,000

Stanford
Mid-career pay: $217,300

Northwestern
Mid-career pay: $210,000

Columbia
Mid-career pay: $176,200

NYU
Mid-career pay: $177,800


If the A3 clerkships are so prestigious, why aren't Yale grads converting them to better post-clerkship salaries?

Is there a breakdown of CoA vs DC for the Yale A3 data?

How do they define mid-career? Those numbers look low to me.

[fringles]

I think Columbia is definitely worth a bit more money than several of the other t14s based on their employment numbers. At the lower t14 you're in desperate shape at or below median. Not so much at Columbia.

Totally agree. Criticism is mainly directed at people trying to break up the lower end of the T14 into neat little tiers

ETA if by desperate shape you mean striking out at OCI, absolutely. But you're not going to go hungry with a diploma from one of those schools. You just might not end up with that market-paying gig at a huge firm after graduation.

[worldtraveler]

I wish these statistics were also counting DOJ or other federal honors programs plus Skadden/EJW/Soros fellowships because those are all incredibly desirable outcomes and even harder to get in a lot of cases.

[papercut]

According to the Forbes ranking:

Yale
Mid-career pay: $165,000

Stanford
Mid-career pay: $217,300

Northwestern
Mid-career pay: $210,000

Columbia
Mid-career pay: $176,200

NYU
Mid-career pay: $177,800


If the A3 clerkships are so prestigious, why aren't Yale grads converting them to better post-clerkship salaries?

Because many of the "prestigious" positions in law pay considerably less then what run-of-the-mill associates make at big law firms. Law professors, federal government attorneys, and elite PI lawyers generally make less (and in some cases considerably less) than $200K a year.

I'm not 100% sure, but are prestigious profs really making less than around 200k? I've seen some of the numbers before, and I don't think so.

Anyway, the positions you're talking about are rare. Above, it was agreed that most clerks go to big law.

[papercut]

According to the Forbes ranking:

Yale
Mid-career pay: $165,000

Stanford
Mid-career pay: $217,300

Northwestern
Mid-career pay: $210,000

Columbia
Mid-career pay: $176,200

NYU
Mid-career pay: $177,800


If the A3 clerkships are so prestigious, why aren't Yale grads converting them to better post-clerkship salaries?

Is there a breakdown of CoA vs DC for the Yale A3 data?

How do they define mid-career? Those numbers look low to me.

Seems low to me too, but for comparison's sake it should suffice.

Forbes:

s for mid-career salaries, Payscale looks at law school grads with 10 or more years of work experience, and a median of 15. That sample size is 11,900 and the median age for the group is 46.

[rpupkin]

I wish these statistics were also counting DOJ or other federal honors programs plus Skadden/EJW/Soros fellowships because those are all incredibly desirable outcomes and even harder to get in a lot of cases.

Those aren't the only desirable outcomes that aren't accounted for. As you know from going to Boalt, many of the more desirable firms in San Francisco have fewer than 100 attorneys. The students who land jobs at those firms are usually turning down offers from "V10" firms, but those students are not counted in this list. In fairness, though, I think those who are compiling the stats on here recognize that they're just a crude measure of employment outcomes. Better than nothing (and certainly better than the USNWR rankings), but far from perfect.

[papercut]

I wish these statistics were also counting DOJ or other federal honors programs plus Skadden/EJW/Soros fellowships because those are all incredibly desirable outcomes and even harder to get in a lot of cases.

It doesn't really matter if your goal is to compare the schools since these aren't counted for anyone, and the A3 + Big Law number should correlate very well with the positions you mentioned.

[jenesaislaw]

According to the Forbes ranking:

Yale
Mid-career pay: $165,000

Stanford
Mid-career pay: $217,300

Northwestern
Mid-career pay: $210,000

Columbia
Mid-career pay: $176,200

NYU
Mid-career pay: $177,800


If the A3 clerkships are so prestigious, why aren't Yale grads converting them to better post-clerkship salaries?

Is there a breakdown of CoA vs DC for the Yale A3 data?

How do they define mid-career? Those numbers look low to me.

FYI to everyone but the author of that piece is going to retract the story because the data are crap. Spent 75 minutes on the phone with her today, both talking about the problems and how she can remedy the problem she caused. Specifically, I am trying to convince her to persuade the editors to pull the piece entirely too. Either way, a new story with more clarity will be up next week -- and it will not include the mid-career pay. It's based on even fewer datapoints than the entry-level starting salaries we're all familiar with.

[papercut]

I wish these statistics were also counting DOJ or other federal honors programs plus Skadden/EJW/Soros fellowships because those are all incredibly desirable outcomes and even harder to get in a lot of cases.

Those are't the only desirable outcomes that aren't accounted for. As you know from going to Boalt, many of the more desirable firms in San Francisco have fewer than 100 attorneys. The students who land jobs at those firms are usually turning down offers from "V10" firms, but those students are not counted in this list. In fairness, though, I think those who are compiling the stats on here recognize that they're just a crude measure of employment outcomes. Better than nothing (and certainly better than the USNWR rankings), but far from perfect.

It doesn't matter. The prestigious boutique firm jobs should correlate with the a3 + big law numbers, so you still have a good basis for comparing the schools.

Did Boalt release their stats yet?