ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad Forum

[BaiAilian2013]

You can also mass mail Denver firms, playing up the three years as ties. They're not the best ties, but you can make a good cover letter out of three years. I got into a ties-sensitive market on less. If you get into NYU, I'd go there, otherwise maybe Michigan?

[hukchobo]

PLEASE do not say RETAKE.

Okay. Don't go. If you have 4 yrs of COL saved up, that's $80k, assuming $20k/yr in living expenses. There's a decent chance that you'll come out of these schools making $50k, which is about what you're making now. Only now you've burned through $60k in savings and have $50k in debt.

Thanks for the quick reply. One follow up question then. What about future income? I'm dead serious when I say I have no future at my current place/industry. Would you still recommend me not to go? Don't know if this is relevant ITE but I honestly do want to become a lawyer.

I considered your future income, and I'm still hesitant to say you should go. The reason why is you're giving up a sure thing for a gamble that you're paying $110,000-$130,000 once you factor in the debt and your savings. You could get big law, or you could get doc review. Most likely, you're coming out and the exact same amount of money, but you just spent 3 yrs of your life to do so.

What's the exact amount of tuition you'd be paying at each school?

UGA = 13k/yr
UIUC = 15k/yr
This is last year's tuition and assuming no tuition increases. I'll be negotiating hard for more but no guarantees. Every other school would cost more than 20k/yr.

[Beercules]

Goals: BigLaw litigation in a big city (i.e. NYC, LA, DC). Endgame goal is plaintiff side firm.

Options:

Cardozo @ free
Fordham @ 75k COA
USC @ 70k COA
Vandy @ 80k COA

Let er rip.

[Bikeflip]

Do I pretty much have to go to NYC and then lateral after 2-3 yrs?

Denver's lateral market is semi active. This may be your best play. Even then, no guarantees.

I considered your future income, and I'm still hesitant to say you should go. The reason why is you're giving up a sure thing for a gamble that you're paying $110,000-$130,000 once you factor in the debt and your savings. You could get big law, or you could get doc review. Most likely, you're coming out and the exact same amount of money, but you just spent 3 yrs of your life to do so.

What's the exact amount of tuition you'd be paying at each school?

UGA = 13k/yr
UIUC = 15k/yr
This is last year's tuition and assuming no tuition increases. I'll be negotiating hard for more but no guarantees. Every other school would cost more than 20k/yr.

So you're closer to paying $110-$115,000 after you factor in using your savings on COL and debt financing tuition. Still seems steep for someone who is debt averse.

[timbs4339]

Goals: BigLaw litigation in a big city (i.e. NYC, LA, DC). Endgame goal is plaintiff side firm.

Options:

Cardozo @ free
Fordham @ 75k COA
USC @ 70k COA
Vandy @ 80k COA

Let er rip.

That's about as much as I'd pay for Fordham. Are you sure you can negotiate a bigger award from them, using Vandy and USC as leverage?

It's a tough decision because you're still looking at less than a coinflip's shot, and once you're off the biglaw boat it's hard to get back on. What are your numbers?

[prezidentv8]

Goals: BigLaw litigation in a big city (i.e. NYC, LA, DC). Endgame goal is plaintiff side firm.

Options:

Cardozo @ free
Fordham @ 75k COA
USC @ 70k COA
Vandy @ 80k COA

Let er rip.

Nope.

If the goal absolutely must include biglaw for some reason (maybe trying to get into a particular type of plaintiff's work?), none of those seem like particularly attractive choices given the debt/biglaw odds. If biglaw isn't necessary, why are you not trying for lower-prestige/bigger-scholarship/more-local type schools?

If you have an idea of where you want to be, geographically, that would be helpful too.

Try again next cycle for a big (read:full or nearly full) scholarship either (a) at one of the higher ranked schools (read: T14 or similar, e.g., USC/UCLA/Vandy/Texas/etc) or (b) at a well-reputed local school near where you want to practice. Try to do some work near wherever it is you're trying to practice while in school/during summers too. That will keep your debt down and give you a good shot to actually do the work you want, without making biglaw a financial necessity.

You could also use the extra cycle to retake, as well, which may or may not be an attractive option, but whatever.

TLDR: I don't like your options. Get a bigger scholarship at a better school or go local, keep your debt down, and don't make biglaw a necessity if you don't have to.

[Beercules]

Goals: BigLaw litigation in a big city (i.e. NYC, LA, DC). Endgame goal is plaintiff side firm.

Options:

Cardozo @ free
Fordham @ 75k COA
USC @ 70k COA
Vandy @ 80k COA

Let er rip.

Nope.

If the goal absolutely must include biglaw for some reason (maybe trying to get into a particular type of plaintiff's work?), none of those seem like particularly attractive choices given the debt/biglaw odds. If biglaw isn't necessary, why are you not trying for lower-prestige/bigger-scholarship/more-local type schools?

If you have an idea of where you want to be, geographically, that would be helpful too.

Try again next cycle for a big (read:full or nearly full) scholarship either (a) at one of the higher ranked schools (read: T14 or similar, e.g., USC/UCLA/Vandy/Texas/etc) or (b) at a well-reputed local school near where you want to practice. Try to do some work near wherever it is you're trying to practice while in school/during summers too. That will keep your debt down and give you a good shot to actually do the work you want, without making biglaw a financial necessity.

You could also use the extra cycle to retake, as well, which may or may not be an attractive option, but whatever.

TLDR: I don't like your options. Get a bigger scholarship at a better school or go local, keep your debt down, and don't make biglaw a necessity if you don't have to.

BigLaw is the goal, not the be all end all.

Retake not an option, all takes used. 167/3.6X. Riding t14 waitlists at the moment.

No preference on geography.

Why would I sit out a cycle?

I should clarify that those numbers are the total COA for all 3 years, not one. I have (fairly substantial) scholarships at all places, parents covering living expenses/some other costs.

[prezidentv8]

Goals: BigLaw litigation in a big city (i.e. NYC, LA, DC). Endgame goal is plaintiff side firm.

Options:

Cardozo @ free
Fordham @ 75k COA
USC @ 70k COA
Vandy @ 80k COA

Let er rip.

Nope.

If the goal absolutely must include biglaw for some reason (maybe trying to get into a particular type of plaintiff's work?), none of those seem like particularly attractive choices given the debt/biglaw odds. If biglaw isn't necessary, why are you not trying for lower-prestige/bigger-scholarship/more-local type schools?

If you have an idea of where you want to be, geographically, that would be helpful too.

Try again next cycle for a big (read:full or nearly full) scholarship either (a) at one of the higher ranked schools (read: T14 or similar, e.g., USC/UCLA/Vandy/Texas/etc) or (b) at a well-reputed local school near where you want to practice. Try to do some work near wherever it is you're trying to practice while in school/during summers too. That will keep your debt down and give you a good shot to actually do the work you want, without making biglaw a financial necessity.

You could also use the extra cycle to retake, as well, which may or may not be an attractive option, but whatever.

TLDR: I don't like your options. Get a bigger scholarship at a better school or go local, keep your debt down, and don't make biglaw a necessity if you don't have to.

BigLaw is the goal, not the be all end all.

Retake not an option, all takes used. 167/3.6X. Riding t14 waitlists at the moment.

No preference on geography.

Why would I sit out a cycle?

I should clarify that those numbers are the total COA for all 3 years, not one. I have (fairly substantial) scholarships at all places, parents covering living expenses/some other costs.

You may have a greater risk tolerance than I do, but I just don't see any of those options being good bets for biglaw at the stated costs (and certainly too expensive if you don't end up in biglaw). That's why I'd say to pass on it for this cycle and try again next time. A bit surprised you didn't get a better offer with those numbers though, although I suppose I'm not really in touch with the admissions process anymore.

What kind of practice are you trying to end up in, say, five years out (if you know)?

[deadpanic]

Assuming you are including the COL, I think USC or Vandy at 70/80k is very reasonable. I would probably take USC since it is in a big city with a decent amount of big law jobs. Unless you have some preference for the East Coast then I would go with Vandy.

Wouldn't bank on big law, but at that cost, I think those two are both worth it.

I would rule out Cardozo & Fordham.

[jbagelboy]

USC at that cost seems like a great setup to me. You'll have to fight your way into biglaw, but it's as good a shot as you'll get outside the T14. My concern would be if you have never lived or worked in CA before. It's an extremely southern california-focused network (as you might expect).

[NotASpecialSnowflake]

My goals: big law, but I don't have it planned out as much as I'd like to

Gpa: 3.91 lsat: 167

My ties: nothing special

Opportunity cost: coming straight out of UG with a humanities major

My current options (depending on waitlists, which isn't likely anyways) are:

UCLA with 100k+ debt- probably out, not really considering it

Texas with 50k total debt plus COL - interesting but I don't have ties and never lived in Tex before

ED UVA to try to get off the waitlist

Take a year or two off and retake - this is where I'm leaning

I know there is a t-14 in there (two if you count Texas), but I was hoping I could still get some advice

Thanks!

[patogordo]

50k + COL is still a lot of debt. retake for sure.

[cron1834]

USC at that cost seems like a great setup to me. You'll have to fight your way into biglaw, but it's as good a shot as you'll get outside the T14. My concern would be if you have never lived or worked in CA before. It's an extremely southern california-focused network (as you might expect).

I'm considering USC at about that cost, and I'm concerned with exactly the issue you raise. My sibling lives in SoCal, and my folks are contemplating retiring there in a few years, which is why CA is on my radar. Does this seem sufficient to constitute "ties" or is not having anything CA on the resume prior to law school a death blow? The reputation I've gleaned from TLS seems to be that LA in particular is easier without ties than elsewhere, though nothing like NYC.

[patogordo]

USC at that cost seems like a great setup to me. You'll have to fight your way into biglaw, but it's as good a shot as you'll get outside the T14. My concern would be if you have never lived or worked in CA before. It's an extremely southern california-focused network (as you might expect).

I'm considering USC at about that cost, and I'm concerned with exactly the issue you raise. My sibling lives in SoCal, and my folks are contemplating retiring there in a few years, which is why CA is on my radar. Does this seem sufficient to constitute "ties" or is not having anything CA on the resume prior to law school a death blow? The reputation I've gleaned from TLS seems to be that LA in particular is easier without ties than elsewhere, though nothing like NYC.

LA firms i interviewed with were mostly unconcerned about ties, and i have no west coast family ties and went to an east coast school. they all asked "why CA?" but didn't seem too concerned about having hard ties. i think you'd have even less of a problem coming from USC.

the bigger problem is if you decide you don't want to work in CA.

[cron1834]

USC at that cost seems like a great setup to me. You'll have to fight your way into biglaw, but it's as good a shot as you'll get outside the T14. My concern would be if you have never lived or worked in CA before. It's an extremely southern california-focused network (as you might expect).

I'm considering USC at about that cost, and I'm concerned with exactly the issue you raise. My sibling lives in SoCal, and my folks are contemplating retiring there in a few years, which is why CA is on my radar. Does this seem sufficient to constitute "ties" or is not having anything CA on the resume prior to law school a death blow? The reputation I've gleaned from TLS seems to be that LA in particular is easier without ties than elsewhere, though nothing like NYC.

LA firms i interviewed with were mostly unconcerned about ties, and i have no west coast family ties and went to an east coast school. they all asked "why CA?" but didn't seem too concerned about having hard ties. i think you'd have even less of a problem coming from USC.

the bigger problem is if you decide you don't want to work in CA.

Thanks for the insight, duder, appreciated.

[toshiroh]

I'm from ATL. Cost of living is not enough to accrue 75k + debt. That is way way way too high

[The Dark Shepard]

UMN 25k year(probably can get more), family ties in Minnesota. Will probably have some financial help(for COL not tuition) from family. Government/PI goals.

[worldtraveler]

UMN 25k year(probably can get more), family ties in Minnesota. Will probably have some financial help(for COL not tuition) from family. Government/PI goals.

Oh god no.

[The Dark Shepard]

Can I have reasons instead of "Oh god no". Thanks.

[Nomo]

Can I have reasons instead of "Oh god no". Thanks.

You're looking at paying 6 figures for a school where 1 out of every 5 graduates doesn't get a full-time legal job. You'll have a better chance of being undermployed than you will of getting a large firm or federal clerkship job.

[worldtraveler]

Can I have reasons instead of "Oh god no". Thanks.

Look at how tough gov/PI hiring is combined with the current uncertainty over PSLF and IBR. Add that to tough job prospects for UMN grads of any kind.

[JCougar]

Honestly, these days, shooting for good PI/FedGov jobs is more difficult than getting Biglaw, and it doesn't pay as much. Attending UMN while taking out six figures of debt is extremely risky. Budgets are in bad shape, and if Republicans continue to control the House, agency budgets and legal aid are going to remain on the chopping block every time there's a new fiscal year. We've seen some relief this year, as Republicans were forced to compromise after they over-played their hand with the government shutdown in October. But that could change if the Republicans take the Senate this fall and increase their margin in the House.

I don't mean to bring politics into this, but the reality is that funding for FedGov jobs and other legal aid funded by the Legal Services Corporation have become political footballs. It's hard to predict which way the wind will be blowing by the time any law school student entering school this fall graduates in 2017.

[84651846190]

Can I have reasons instead of "Oh god no". Thanks.

You're looking at paying 6 figures for a school where 1 out of every 5 graduates doesn't get a full-time legal job. You'll have a better chance of being undermployed than you will of getting a large firm or federal clerkship job.

You know it's bad when the general population has a lower chance of being unemployed than you do after three years of legal "education." Plus, you're saddled with student loans and lose three years of your life doing something incredibly stressful--three years you could have spent building a business or, oh I dunno, sitting on your ass all day (which would leave you in a better spot than a sizable chunk of UM's graduating class).

[anna8506]

So how would you guys put UMN in the original post, as Might be worth it for free/near free or no go under any condition?
Thanks

[johannalee]

Goals: Some type of civil/human rights law. Not particularly interested in making big money, just want to support myself and a family
Accepted with full tuition to IU-B and Ted I wi receive full tuition to Denver, but I have not officially been given it yet
Have not heard back from Boulder yet but hoping for full tuition with bargaining
Also received $15,000 and in state tuition to UT-Austin
My parents would help me financially through law school but probably not so far as to pay $45,000 for Austin for the three years

Would love to live in Colorado, would be fine with Bloomington, but not so thrilled about Indiana as a whole. Also I like Austin, but wouldn't want to stay in Texas

Advice?