Take the money and Run; YS - CCNH? Forum

[quijotesca1011]

--

[bk1]

Agree that academia is absurdly hard to get, but it is definitely one of the cushiest jobs in the entire profession.

It may be cushy in the hours/pay sense, but I agree with the above poster that most people here wouldn't like it. First you have to be willing to live pretty much anywhere if you want to make it happen (don't like living in some bumfuck college town? too bad). Second you have to be willing to be a part of the law school scam (since you will most likely be teaching at a T1/T2/TTT that fleeces its students and doesn't provide them jobs). Third you have to do a job that I think most law students would hate (reading copious amounts of law review articles and shitting out pointless "scholarship"). Heck, once you factor in all the reading that professors do to help themselves write more scholarship, the hours/pay ratio might not be all that great unless you actually enjoy reading those articles.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Agree that academia is absurdly hard to get, but it is definitely one of the cushiest jobs in the entire profession.

It may be cushy in the hours/pay sense, but I agree with the above poster that most people here wouldn't like it. First you have to be willing to live pretty much anywhere if you want to make it happen (don't like living in some bumfuck college town? too bad). Second you have to be willing to be a part of the law school scam (since you will most likely be teaching at a T1/T2/TTT that fleeces its students and doesn't provide them jobs). Third you have to do a job that I think most law students would hate (reading copious amounts of law review articles and shitting out pointless "scholarship"). Heck, once you factor in all the reading that professors do to help themselves write more scholarship, the hours/pay ratio might not be all that great unless you actually enjoy reading those articles.

I nearly posted exactly this. I'll just add, too, that you have to be willing to be valued entirely on that scholarship. And you still have to get up in a classroom and talk in front of 5-80 people (or more) for an hour+ probably 6x a week, which a lot of people also wouldn't enjoy. If you have the right mindset it's great, but if you don't, it's going to kind of suck emotionally. (Which is different from hours/pay, of course.)

[NYSprague]

I would still like to know what percentage of graduating seniors/people who have been out and working in this economy 1-3 years (so it's a fair comparison) and went to HYS after taking out significant debt actually regret it. It just seems that we don't usually hear from them on these boards, we hear from people who tell us that those other people regret it.

I've never once seen anyone on this board say they regretted YS over lower T14 with discount. I don't read all the threads, and these are really small schools so its obviously not that meaningful in any way. I've seen maybe 2-3 anecdotes of people who took H at sticker and regret not taking CCNP with money.

that's because the s, and to a lesser extent, y tls crowd, are pretty cult-ish (with exceptions). anyways, it's a silly yardstick to base anything on. to the preceding question, why would a graduating senior's regret or lack thereof, be of any relevance? they've neither started working or making loan payments.

My point was simply that we don't see a lot of HYS people who took out debt on TLS bemoaning the fact that they took out debt. We see a lot of people who went to other schools telling us it wasn't worth it for those people. which may be the case, but at the end of the day, it would be a lot more convincing to hear directly from these HYS grads that are supposedly regretting it.

And I said graduating seniors (only assuming that's when the debt starts to get really real) AND recent graduates, simply because if it wasn't post-2008 graduates I'm pretty sure everyone here would have said, 'it's irrelevant' to compare anyone who graduated before then with anyone grouting since.

I've seen posts on here from Harvard grads regretting debt. If you really want to know, why not contact recent grads at biglaw firms yourself. Ask them about debt and repayment plans. Not many practicing lawyers are on TLS trying to give 0Ls advice. It is absurd to assume only certain people have advice that you want and then not seek the answer yourself. I'm sure Harvard can easily give you a list of alums to contact.

I can tell you that not going to Harvard over CCN has made no difference to me, what has made the biggest difference is being good at my job and working with great partners who like me.

Edit: if you want PI and to know how the repayment plan works in the real world, find alums and ask them too. Don't expect other people to do your work for you while you simply dismiss their advice which is based on their experience.

[Blessedassurance]

I think I'd easily choose HYS over CCN with some scholarship, provided their repayment assistance was obviously superior to what CCN has to offer. Between HYS and full ride at MPBV, though, I'd almost certainly go for the latter.

I'm not incredibly knowledgeable about LRAP's myself, but twenty has pretty convincingly argued that NYU's LRAP is actually superior to some of "HYS". So that's hardly a default.

link? i'm pretty certain this is wrong.

[09042014]

I wouldn't say "want to do PI" and I would instead say " refuse to do anything but PI, and I have PI experience and know what I'm getting myself into."

Then again, I'm one of these people, so that's probably why some of the basic operating assumptions of this thread have been rather grating.

If you aren't smart enough to realize an argument cannot account for small edges cases, I don't know what to tell you. You might as well be saying I'm wrong because trust fund babies have more than enough to cover it.

[quijotesca1011]

I've never once seen anyone on this board say they regretted YS over lower T14 with discount. I don't read all the threads, and these are really small schools so its obviously not that meaningful in any way. I've seen maybe 2-3 anecdotes of people who took H at sticker and regret not taking CCNP with money.

that's because the s, and to a lesser extent, y tls crowd, are pretty cult-ish (with exceptions). anyways, it's a silly yardstick to base anything on. to the preceding question, why would a graduating senior's regret or lack thereof, be of any relevance? they've neither started working or making loan payments.

My point was simply that we don't see a lot of HYS people who took out debt on TLS bemoaning the fact that they took out debt. We see a lot of people who went to other schools telling us it wasn't worth it for those people. which may be the case, but at the end of the day, it would be a lot more convincing to hear directly from these HYS grads that are supposedly regretting it.

And I said graduating seniors (only assuming that's when the debt starts to get really real) AND recent graduates, simply because if it wasn't post-2008 graduates I'm pretty sure everyone here would have said, 'it's irrelevant' to compare anyone who graduated before then with anyone grouting since.

I've seen posts on here from Harvard grads regretting debt. If you really want to know, why not contact recent grads at biglaw firms yourself. Ask them about debt and repayment plans. Not many practicing lawyers are on TLS trying to give 0Ls advice. It is absurd to assume only certain people have advice that you want and then not seek the answer yourself. I'm sure Harvard can easily give you a list of alums to contact.

I can tell you that not going to Harvard over CCN has made no difference to me, what has made the biggest difference is being good at my job and working with great partners who like me.

Edit: if you want PI and to know how the repayment plan works in the real world, find alums and ask them too. Don't expect other people to do your work for you while you simply dismiss their advice which is based on their experience.

I have contacted alums and have a pretty long list of alums in my field of interest to contact in the next few months, so I am by no means am 'expect[ing] other people to do my work for me.' TLS is simply one additional resource that can be useful, but I think threads like this can do more harm than good, as they generate a lot of oversimplified truths that don't necessarily help anyone.

And I am not dismissing other people's advice based on THEIR experience, I just think a lot of people on TLS feel entitled to comment on things outside of their experience as if they were experts (definitely including 0Ls, but also students and grads who talk about schools and/or fields that are not their own with impressive 'authority').

It is extremely helpful to hear from someone from CCN who did not regret their choice, for example. In comparing options, however, it is then a lot less helpful to repeatedly hear a chorus of people who didn't go to HYS with debt telling us how much people who go to HYS with debt regret it; undoubtedly there is some truth there (of course there are people for whom that decision does not work out and they regret it), but you have to see how that is a lot less convincing than hearing it straight from the horse's mouth.

[jbagelboy]

I think I'd easily choose HYS over CCN with some scholarship, provided their repayment assistance was obviously superior to what CCN has to offer. Between HYS and full ride at MPBV, though, I'd almost certainly go for the latter.

I'm not incredibly knowledgeable about LRAP's myself, but twenty has pretty convincingly argued that NYU's LRAP is actually superior to some of "HYS". So that's hardly a default.

link? i'm pretty certain this is wrong.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... an+Harvard

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... an+Harvard

He tries to make the point in both these threads about LIPP. Not endorsing, just pointing out that people who have spent a lot of time researching this have come to different conclusions and it's probably better to research the options than just assume.

I think the tide will turn towards favoring those LRAP programs like what HYS offers that do not rely on government forgiveness, given the Congressional tide on both sides of the aisle turning against forgiving six figure debt for public interest. But take it for what it's worth.

[A. Nony Mouse]

It is extremely helpful to hear from someone from CCN who did not regret their choice, for example. In comparing options, however, it is then a lot less helpful to repeatedly hear a chorus of people who didn't go to HYS with debt telling us how much people who go to HYS with debt regret it; undoubtedly there is some truth there (of course there are people for whom that decision does not work out and they regret it), but you have to see how that is a lot less convincing than hearing it straight from the horse's mouth.

Have people really said this, though? My impression is that people who went to the next tier down from HYS with significant debt have said that they wish they'd taken the money, and have suggested that HYS aren't different enough to be exempt from this kind of analysis, when you look at what most people do with a law degree and the opportunities that the non-HYS schools provide. I don't think anyone who didn't go to HYS has insisted that HYS grads with debt regret it. It's more the argument that HYS aren't so different to make them worth taking out sticker over CCN etc. with money. (Obviously different people along the way have nuanced this with regard to PI etc.)

[quijotesca1011]

--

[yomisterd]

It is extremely helpful to hear from someone from CCN who did not regret their choice, for example. In comparing options, however, it is then a lot less helpful to repeatedly hear a chorus of people who didn't go to HYS with debt telling us how much people who go to HYS with debt regret it; undoubtedly there is some truth there (of course there are people for whom that decision does not work out and they regret it), but you have to see how that is a lot less convincing than hearing it straight from the horse's mouth.

Have people really said this, though? My impression is that people who went to the next tier down from HYS with significant debt have said that they wish they'd taken the money, and have suggested that HYS aren't different enough to be exempt from this kind of analysis, when you look at what most people do with a law degree and the opportunities that the non-HYS schools provide. I don't think anyone who didn't go to HYS has insisted that HYS grads with debt regret it. It's more the argument that HYS aren't so different to make them worth taking out sticker over CCN etc. with money. (Obviously different people along the way have nuanced this with regard to PI etc.)

I think this is the essence of the thread. Law school is an expensive endeavor and analysis in choosing should be as tangible as possible, even for schools with supposedly amazing intangibles such as HYS.

[rayiner]

Subject: What does working "in house" mean?

Pro-tip don't lecture people about where graduates end up if you don't know what the fuck in house is.

See you at Harvard bro

lololol

Fuck you, man. He has so many opportunities in his future he doesn't even understand them all yet.

To be fair, he's arguing with one hand tied behind his back. He can't tell us about the top-secret book of HYS-required unicorn jobs that they give out at ASW.

[rayiner]

*Won't be taking out huge loans, plan to clerk and ideally go into academia down the road with some PI in between after perhaps working at a firm for a few years

You should consider the possibility that

1) academia is absurdly hard to get, even from HYS, and
2) academia totally blows, unless you are a certain sort of person.

On the first point: an absurdly low number of even Yalies manage to get academia. Even when they do it's often only after clerking, spending a few years in private practice, and then clawing their way through underappreciated VAP fellowships. All the while they have to pen 80 page articles that should have been written in 5 pages that nobody in their right mind wants to read. Finally success: they land that prestigious tenure-track position at Middle-of-Nowhere-TTT School of Law and immediately take it, because most folks don't get much choice. They then become part of a broken system of legal education that will hopefully collapse before they reach mid-career.

Only the tippy-top best-of-the-best feeder CoA or SCOTUS-clerking badasses really land the dream of actually getting to teach at a decent school or have much of a choice about where they get to live. My CCN interviewed a candidate for a tenure track position recently. He won a bunch of prizes for best of everything at Yale, summered at Wachtell and was a SCOTUS clerk. Don't know if he got the job or not. That's your competition.

On the second point: you have to really be into long monastic periods of writing crazy long and very likely impractical scholarship if you intend to actually enjoy and survive in the academic world. Just being crazy smart won't be enough. If you went to law school as opposed to getting a PhD in [your undergrad major] because you wanted to actually work with real people and their problems or feel like your work was practically interesting, or if you hate writing interminably long papers the luster of whose ideas likely fades well before their 250th footnote is written, then you will not enjoy being an academic. (This is entirely aside from the quality-of-life hazards of ending up at a TTT in the middle of nowhere, discussed above). Note many very nice interesting people are academics (some of them will be your professors). But it's not for everyone, and unless you're the type that was publishing scholarship before you even came to law school, it's hard to know if it'll be for you.

All this means that academia isn't a good reason not to take the money and run, at least for most people.

Agree that academia is absurdly hard to get, but it is definitely one of the cushiest jobs in the entire profession.

My co-clerk is a double Ivy JD/PhD who has been looking for academic jobs. He seems really suited for it, but all his interviews have been in places like Kansas.

[star fox]

0L here

What's so great about PI anyways? What kind of fulfilling save the world type of stuff do freshly minted lawyers do?

[star fox]

*Won't be taking out huge loans, plan to clerk and ideally go into academia down the road with some PI in between after perhaps working at a firm for a few years

You should consider the possibility that

1) academia is absurdly hard to get, even from HYS, and
2) academia totally blows, unless you are a certain sort of person.

On the first point: an absurdly low number of even Yalies manage to get academia. Even when they do it's often only after clerking, spending a few years in private practice, and then clawing their way through underappreciated VAP fellowships. All the while they have to pen 80 page articles that should have been written in 5 pages that nobody in their right mind wants to read. Finally success: they land that prestigious tenure-track position at Middle-of-Nowhere-TTT School of Law and immediately take it, because most folks don't get much choice. They then become part of a broken system of legal education that will hopefully collapse before they reach mid-career.

Only the tippy-top best-of-the-best feeder CoA or SCOTUS-clerking badasses really land the dream of actually getting to teach at a decent school or have much of a choice about where they get to live. My CCN interviewed a candidate for a tenure track position recently. He won a bunch of prizes for best of everything at Yale, summered at Wachtell and was a SCOTUS clerk. Don't know if he got the job or not. That's your competition.

On the second point: you have to really be into long monastic periods of writing crazy long and very likely impractical scholarship if you intend to actually enjoy and survive in the academic world. Just being crazy smart won't be enough. If you went to law school as opposed to getting a PhD in [your undergrad major] because you wanted to actually work with real people and their problems or feel like your work was practically interesting, or if you hate writing interminably long papers the luster of whose ideas likely fades well before their 250th footnote is written, then you will not enjoy being an academic. (This is entirely aside from the quality-of-life hazards of ending up at a TTT in the middle of nowhere, discussed above). Note many very nice interesting people are academics (some of them will be your professors). But it's not for everyone, and unless you're the type that was publishing scholarship before you even came to law school, it's hard to know if it'll be for you.

All this means that academia isn't a good reason not to take the money and run, at least for most people.

Agree that academia is absurdly hard to get, but it is definitely one of the cushiest jobs in the entire profession.

My co-clerk is a double Ivy JD/PhD who has been looking for academic jobs. He seems really suited for it, but all his interviews have been in places like Kansas.

If you're in academia I don't see what's so bad about going to a rural red state, even if you're an elitist coaster. Academia is its own bubble.

[rayiner]

This thread originally had nothing to do with HYS. Butthurt HYS admits brought up HYS. The essance of the thread is that big law with debt sucks, take the money. To the extent that most people even at Yale (55-60%) end up in big law, it applies there as much as anywhere else. But Yale isn't the point of the thread.

[twenty]

0L here

What's so great about PI anyways? What kind of fulfilling save the world type of stuff do freshly minted lawyers do?

DA and PD require very little up-front experience, though I'm not sure if that'd be considered fulfilling.

WT does some awesome things with an NGO where people get killed occasionally when things get screwed up.

[A. Nony Mouse]

If you're in academia I don't see what's so bad about going to a rural red state, even if you're an elitist coaster. Academia is its own bubble.

Sure, but some people still don't want to live in a small college town. They have SOs and kids and families and actual, you know, preferences. The point is just that if you want academia you have to value the job over the location, and not everyone wants to do that.

0L here

What's so great about PI anyways? What kind of fulfilling save the world type of stuff do freshly minted lawyers do?

It's not inherently better than non-PI. It's just what some people find more interesting/fulfilling. It's also a pretty big category - if you include public sector stuff generally, I just like working for the government. It doesn't make me better than people working for corporations, it's just what I like better.

[quijotesca1011]

--

[NYSprague]

This thread originally had nothing to do with HYS. Butthurt HYS admits brought up HYS. The essance of the thread is that big law with debt sucks, take the money. To the extent that most people even at Yale (55-60%) end up in big law, it applies there as much as anywhere else. But Yale isn't the point of the thread.

Agreed. Maybe some smart 0Ls will get the point.
For academic hiring, check the faculty lounge blog.

[emu42]

Subject: What does working "in house" mean?

Pro-tip don't lecture people about where graduates end up if you don't know what the fuck in house is.

See you at Harvard bro

lololol

I messaged you that obviously trying to incite some sort of response after you called me an idiot. Considering you replied with an expletive-laced tirade before deleting the message, I'd say it worked.

It's hysterical to accuse me of lecturing anybody. If you'd actually look back at my posts in this thread, I haven't said anything other than that the original post is very stupid because it ignores countless variables in choosing a school.

This thread originally had nothing to do with HYS. Butthurt HYS admits brought up HYS. The essance of the thread is that big law with debt sucks, take the money. To the extent that most people even at Yale (55-60%) end up in big law, it applies there as much as anywhere else. But Yale isn't the point of the thread.

...Did you not read the original post? ("Northwestern is better than Yale if you only care about money in the next [small number] of years.")

Oh yes. You'll just do PI+academia+firm work after a clerkship. So we concede that this thread doesn't apply to you, emu42, specifically. But can you concede that it applies to the 55-60% of people at Y, and even higher at HS, that end up at a firm, with or without a clerkship?

No, you absolutely cannot conclude that. This thread applies only to people who model their life with an expected value function and care solely about $$$. You can end up in biglaw, or at Yale, or wherever you want to for reasons other than money. At no point in this thread did I say choosing the cheaper option is dumb, or that choosing NYU over Yale is dumb, or that going into biglaw is dumb.

I said only that there are countless reasons to not take the money and run. Money is useless if you are having a (relatively) worse time, whether it be in law school or your career.

[emu42]

To be fair, he's arguing with one hand tied behind his back. He can't tell us about the top-secret book of HYS-required unicorn jobs that they give out at ASW.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that you (and Desert Fox, and everyone else bashing HYS) didn't get into HYS. So, as someone who never had to make this decision, why are you smart enough to make it for us?

[A. Nony Mouse]

To be fair, he's arguing with one hand tied behind his back. He can't tell us about the top-secret book of HYS-required unicorn jobs that they give out at ASW.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that you didn't get into HYS.

Well, I know I'm totally convinced by your arguments now.

[09042014]

Subject: What does working "in house" mean?

Pro-tip don't lecture people about where graduates end up if you don't know what the fuck in house is.

See you at Harvard bro

lololol

I messaged you that obviously trying to incite some sort of response after you called me an idiot. Considering you replied with an expletive-laced tirade before deleting the message, I'd say it worked.

It's hysterical to accuse me of lecturing anybody. If you'd actually look back at my posts in this thread, I haven't said anything other than that the original post is very stupid because it ignores countless variables in choosing a school.

This thread originally had nothing to do with HYS. Butthurt HYS admits brought up HYS. The essance of the thread is that big law with debt sucks, take the money. To the extent that most people even at Yale (55-60%) end up in big law, it applies there as much as anywhere else. But Yale isn't the point of the thread.

...Did you not read the original post? ("Northwestern is better than Yale if you only care about money in the next [small number] of years.")

Oh yes. You'll just do PI+academia+firm work after a clerkship. So we concede that this thread doesn't apply to you, emu42, specifically. But can you concede that it applies to the 55-60% of people at Y, and even higher at HS, that end up at a firm, with or without a clerkship?

No, you absolutely cannot conclude that. This thread applies only to people who model their life with an expected value function and care solely about $$$. You can end up in biglaw, or at Yale, or wherever you want to for reasons other than money. At no point in this thread did I say choosing the cheaper option is dumb, or that choosing NYU over Yale is dumb, or that going into biglaw is dumb.

I said only that there are countless reasons to not take the money and run. Money is useless if you are having a (relatively) worse time, whether it be in law school or your career.

Post this supposed tirade. You can't delete pms if they've been read. So go ahead.

They teach you lying at hls asw.

[xRON MEXiCOx]

Money is temporary. Prestige is forever.