Take the money and Run; YS - CCNH? Forum

[Cicero76]

Are you an 0L? You do realize that clerkships are 1-2 year gigs, and the vast majority of clerks are headed back to their summer firms after, yes? Like overwhelming majority. 80+% of HS students summer at large firms, and of them, nearly all return.

where do the yalies go?

The unicorn forest

[09042014]

At HLS. If you ignore clerks, still only 15% do Gov. or PI. So even if the Clerks went to PI and Gov at the same rate as regular students, the vast majority are going to biglaw after.

The best way to tell is to check what they do during their 2L summer.

Also lol emu http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3#p7649103

So being a 0L precludes me from doing math/talking to current students and recent grads? Why do you pick out HLS and ignore Y and S, both of which put less people in firms? And finally, this thread assumes people who go into biglaw stay in biglaw forever. Okay, I mean, this entire thread is an absurd oversimplification. But it's clear how little anything said here applies to me personally,* and I hope others realize this too.



*Won't be taking out huge loans, plan to clerk and ideally go into academia down the road with some PI in between after perhaps working at a firm for a few years

Clerking doesn't make your debt go away. Academia is a low probability shot even at Harvard. Your plan to dabble in PI is bogus and I bet you know it'll. you'll be in big law like the rest of us. See you there. We can get lunch at the cheap burrito cart, since we'll both be poor.

[rayiner]

At HLS. If you ignore clerks, still only 15% do Gov. or PI. So even if the Clerks went to PI and Gov at the same rate as regular students, the vast majority are going to biglaw after.

The best way to tell is to check what they do during their 2L summer.

Also lol emu http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3#p7649103

So being a 0L precludes me from doing math/talking to current students and recent grads? Why do you pick out HLS and ignore Y and S, both of which put less people in firms? And finally, this thread assumes people who go into biglaw stay in biglaw forever. Okay, I mean, this entire thread is an absurd oversimplification. But it's clear how little anything said here applies to me personally,* and I hope others realize this too.



*Won't be taking out huge loans, plan to clerk and ideally go into academia down the road with some PI in between after perhaps working at a firm for a few years

Oh yes. You'll just do PI+academia+firm work after a clerkship. So we concede that this thread doesn't apply to you, emu42, specifically. But can you concede that it applies to the 55-60% of people at Y, and even higher at HS, that end up at a firm, with or without a clerkship?

[TooOld4This]

At HLS. If you ignore clerks, still only 15% do Gov. or PI. So even if the Clerks went to PI and Gov at the same rate as regular students, the vast majority are going to biglaw after.

The best way to tell is to check what they do during their 2L summer.

Also lol emu http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3#p7649103

So being a 0L precludes me from doing math/talking to current students and recent grads? Why do you pick out HLS and ignore Y and S, both of which put less people in firms? And finally, this thread assumes people who go into biglaw stay in biglaw forever. Okay, I mean, this entire thread is an absurd oversimplification. But it's clear how little anything said here applies to me personally,* and I hope others realize this too.



*Won't be taking out huge loans, plan to clerk and ideally go into academia down the road with some PI in between after perhaps working at a firm for a few years

Oh yes. You'll just do PI+academia+firm work after a clerkship. So we concede that this thread doesn't apply to you, emu42, specifically. But can you concede that it applies to the 55-60% of people at Y, and even higher at HS, that end up at a firm, with or without a clerkship?

And the point of this thread was that no school is worth STICKER. Wanting academia, but needing to take our $300,000 in loans is still a bad bet, even at Yale.

[Theopliske8711]

Law school prestige is like the value of a new car -- it depreciates by about 40% by the second week of law school, and by 90% within a few years of graduation. But it sure has a nice smell at ASW.

This is so true.

Also, once you turn 25 or 26, you become an Actual Adult and care less about prestige in general.

Prestige should come with a lifetime of free prime filet mignon and red wine.

[rayiner]

At HLS. If you ignore clerks, still only 15% do Gov. or PI. So even if the Clerks went to PI and Gov at the same rate as regular students, the vast majority are going to biglaw after.

The best way to tell is to check what they do during their 2L summer.

Also lol emu http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3#p7649103

So being a 0L precludes me from doing math/talking to current students and recent grads? Why do you pick out HLS and ignore Y and S, both of which put less people in firms? And finally, this thread assumes people who go into biglaw stay in biglaw forever. Okay, I mean, this entire thread is an absurd oversimplification. But it's clear how little anything said here applies to me personally,* and I hope others realize this too.



*Won't be taking out huge loans, plan to clerk and ideally go into academia down the road with some PI in between after perhaps working at a firm for a few years

Oh yes. You'll just do PI+academia+firm work after a clerkship. So we concede that this thread doesn't apply to you, emu42, specifically. But can you concede that it applies to the 55-60% of people at Y, and even higher at HS, that end up at a firm, with or without a clerkship?

And the point of this thread was that no school is worth STICKER. Wanting academia, but needing to take our $300,000 in loans is still a bad bet, even at Yale.

That's not what I take away from this thread. If I really wanted academia, well I'd get PhD. Bad example. If I really wanted to do high level policy in DC, I'd go to HY even at sticker. I think the point of this thread is that, statistically, most people at HYS won't end up in the White House OLC, etc. They'll end up in relatively ordinary legal jobs (big law, big fed/state) that don't require HYS to get into. Those people, post-facto, would have been better off taking the money.

[dresden doll]

^^^With all that said, there's no real cognizable argument for taking 60k at CCN over sticker at HYS if you want to do PI and HYS offers you repayment options that aren't contingent on govt programs. Even with a 20k per year scholarship, you're not paying off your loans on a PI salary at the most prestigious of PIs. I'd do 300k at YLS if the school was happy to repay my loans on a standard 10 year plan, entirely independent of the (non)existence of IBR/PSLF.

[09042014]

^^^With all that said, there's no real cognizable argument for taking 60k at CCN over sticker at HYS if you want to do PI and HYS offers you repayment options that aren't contingent on govt programs. Even with a 20k per year scholarship, you're not paying off your loans on a PI salary at the most prestigious of PIs. I'd do 300k at YLS if the school was happy to repay my loans on a standard 10 year plan, entirely independent of the (non)existence of IBR/PSLF.

PI is just as shitty at biglaw with debt, probably worse.

I wouldn't say "want to do PI" and I would instead say " refuse to do anything but PI, and I have PI experience and know what I'm getting myself into."

Full dedication in PI means skipped OCI, and risking graduating without a job. Relying on school funded fellowship or sheer luck.

Tons of 0Ls who "Want to do PI" end up working in big law anyway.

[09042014]

Subject: What does working "in house" mean?

Pro-tip don't lecture people about where graduates end up if you don't know what the fuck in house is.

See you at Harvard bro

lololol

[dresden doll]

^^^With all that said, there's no real cognizable argument for taking 60k at CCN over sticker at HYS if you want to do PI and HYS offers you repayment options that aren't contingent on govt programs. Even with a 20k per year scholarship, you're not paying off your loans on a PI salary at the most prestigious of PIs. I'd do 300k at YLS if the school was happy to repay my loans on a standard 10 year plan, entirely independent of the (non)existence of IBR/PSLF.

PI is just as shitty at biglaw with debt, probably worse.

I wouldn't say "want to do PI" and I would instead say " refuse to do anything but PI, and I have PI experience and know what I'm getting myself into."

Full dedication in PI means skipped OCI, and risking graduating without a job. Relying on school funded fellowship or sheer luck.

Tons of 0Ls who "Want to do PI" end up working in big law anyway.

Well, yes, that's definitely true. You'd need to be 100 percent committed to PI. All I'm really saying is that if you are (and I realize that's a huge IF), the repayment assistance program should be your absolute priority UNLESS the full ride is on the table. If you're not getting a full ride or close to it, whatever you pay in COL plus the tuition is enough to put you in a position where you'll absolutely need repayment assistance to stay financially afloat.

Personally, I'm totally at the mercy of IBR/PSLF b/c it's how my school's LRAP is synced and I hate it.

[09042014]

^^^With all that said, there's no real cognizable argument for taking 60k at CCN over sticker at HYS if you want to do PI and HYS offers you repayment options that aren't contingent on govt programs. Even with a 20k per year scholarship, you're not paying off your loans on a PI salary at the most prestigious of PIs. I'd do 300k at YLS if the school was happy to repay my loans on a standard 10 year plan, entirely independent of the (non)existence of IBR/PSLF.

PI is just as shitty at biglaw with debt, probably worse.

I wouldn't say "want to do PI" and I would instead say " refuse to do anything but PI, and I have PI experience and know what I'm getting myself into."

Full dedication in PI means skipped OCI, and risking graduating without a job. Relying on school funded fellowship or sheer luck.

Tons of 0Ls who "Want to do PI" end up working in big law anyway.

Well, yes, that's definitely true. You'd need to be 100 percent committed to PI. All I'm really saying is that if you are (and I realize that's a huge IF), the repayment assistance program should be your absolute priority UNLESS the full ride is on the table. If you're not getting a full ride or close to it, whatever you pay in COL plus the tuition is enough to put you in a position where you'll absolutely need repayment assistance to stay financially afloat.

Personally, I'm totally at the mercy of IBR/PSLF b/c it's how my school's LRAP is synced and I hate it.

I agree, and I wouldn't even worry about PSLF going away. But, those who are 100% PI focused are few and far between.

[rad lulz]

.

[dresden doll]

I agree, and I wouldn't even worry about PSLF going away. But, those who are 100% PI focused are few and far between.

Agreed, agreed. I think I'm just a little frustrated at the PI crowd's persisting tendency to undervalue the importance of the repayment program when choosing the "best" school. PI people, do yourselves a favor and value generous repayment programs that aren't contingent on govt programs above everything else. You'll realize how little that 30k a year at UChi really meant when your total bill after 3 years is still 150k+, and you're stuck praying to the based God that the IBR/PSLF ship doesn't sink before your net value can return to 0 in 10 years from graduation.

[didntgo89072014]

In many ways the entire dichotomy of 0Ls debating practicing attorneys over the merits of going to law school and what life is like in biglaw, is just laughable.

The best way to learn about something you want to do (in this case, succeed in law school and secure prestigious, high-paying employment) is talk to people who have done just that and listen to their advice. Take it with a grain of salt but respect their wisdom gained through time and experience. For people who have just been accepted to school to tell biglawyers off (who oh yeah, got accepted, attended, went through 1L, had their SA, got an offer, ACTUALLY RECEIVE PAYCHECKS AND PAY THEIR STUDENT LOANS EVERY MONTH), and act like they know better than the biglawyers is just a joke. Even if you disagree, STFU and stop arguing, you look so dumb. And no one cares that you got into HLS, so did a thousand other people just this year.

[yomisterd]

Subject: What does working "in house" mean?

Pro-tip don't lecture people about where graduates end up if you don't know what the fuck in house is.

See you at Harvard bro

lololol

Lol I cannot believe that is real

Lol at an 0L lecturing someone w an actual legal job just bc the 0L got into a school

SMH.

to be fair though, DF does give a lot of advice that is out of his experience. if I'm PI focused, I would take advice from a PI person, not a big law "debt slave" or whatever.

That said, I take DF's advice because I am not fully PI focused. I may become a debt slave. Or not.

[dresden doll]

if I'm PI focused, I would take advice from a PI person, not a big law "debt slave" or whatever.

I work in PI. He sometimes undervalues the importance of the "where you went to school" factor in re: PI hiring, but otherwise he's not really off-base.

[IAFG]

Subject: What does working "in house" mean?

Pro-tip don't lecture people about where graduates end up if you don't know what the fuck in house is.

See you at Harvard bro

lololol

Fuck you, man. He has so many opportunities in his future he doesn't even understand them all yet.

[yomisterd]

if I'm PI focused, I would take advice from a PI person, not a big law "debt slave" or whatever.

I work in PI. He sometimes undervalues the importance of the "where you went to school" factor in re: PI hiring, but otherwise he's not really off-base.

TYFT. I'm sure anyone who has been through law school and experienced the job market has incredibly valuable things to say, which is why I generally defer to that wisdom. Also, it seems that there is an "all else equal, pick the school with better opportunities" sentiment, but all else is rarely equal with regards to debt and scholarship.

[dresden doll]

I think I'd easily choose HYS over CCN with some scholarship, provided their repayment assistance was obviously superior to what CCN has to offer. Between HYS and full ride at MPBV, though, I'd almost certainly go for the latter.

[Pulsar]

*Won't be taking out huge loans, plan to clerk and ideally go into academia down the road with some PI in between after perhaps working at a firm for a few years

You should consider the possibility that

1) academia is absurdly hard to get, even from HYS, and
2) academia totally blows, unless you are a certain sort of person.

On the first point: an absurdly low number of even Yalies manage to get academia. Even when they do it's often only after clerking, spending a few years in private practice, and then clawing their way through underappreciated VAP fellowships. All the while they have to pen 80 page articles that should have been written in 5 pages that nobody in their right mind wants to read. Finally success: they land that prestigious tenure-track position at Middle-of-Nowhere-TTT School of Law and immediately take it, because most folks don't get much choice. They then become part of a broken system of legal education that will hopefully collapse before they reach mid-career.

Only the tippy-top best-of-the-best feeder CoA or SCOTUS-clerking badasses really land the dream of actually getting to teach at a decent school or have much of a choice about where they get to live. My CCN interviewed a candidate for a tenure track position recently. He won a bunch of prizes for best of everything at Yale, summered at Wachtell and was a SCOTUS clerk. Don't know if he got the job or not. That's your competition.

On the second point: you have to really be into long monastic periods of writing crazy long and very likely impractical scholarship if you intend to actually enjoy and survive in the academic world. Just being crazy smart won't be enough. If you went to law school as opposed to getting a PhD in [your undergrad major] because you wanted to actually work with real people and their problems or feel like your work was practically interesting, or if you hate writing interminably long papers the luster of whose ideas likely fades well before their 250th footnote is written, then you will not enjoy being an academic. (This is entirely aside from the quality-of-life hazards of ending up at a TTT in the middle of nowhere, discussed above). Note many very nice interesting people are academics (some of them will be your professors). But it's not for everyone, and unless you're the type that was publishing scholarship before you even came to law school, it's hard to know if it'll be for you.

All this means that academia isn't a good reason not to take the money and run, at least for most people.

[Cicero76]

Subject: What does working "in house" mean?

Pro-tip don't lecture people about where graduates end up if you don't know what the fuck in house is.

See you at Harvard bro

lololol

Lol I cannot believe that is real

Lol at an 0L lecturing someone w an actual legal job just bc the 0L got into a school

Hi you seem cool

I would like to meet you

See you at Harvard?

[sublime]

..

[jbagelboy]

I think I'd easily choose HYS over CCN with some scholarship, provided their repayment assistance was obviously superior to what CCN has to offer. Between HYS and full ride at MPBV, though, I'd almost certainly go for the latter.

I'm not incredibly knowledgeable about LRAP's myself, but twenty has pretty convincingly argued that NYU's LRAP is actually superior to some of "HYS". So that's hardly a default. The issue is what type of public interest work.. for some of the more prestige-oriented career tracks or positions where it helps to have clerked on the federal circuit, it makes sense to attend the schools who place more prominently into those positions.

[quijotesca1011]

...

[yomisterd]

I think I'd easily choose HYS over CCN with some scholarship, provided their repayment assistance was obviously superior to what CCN has to offer. Between HYS and full ride at MPBV, though, I'd almost certainly go for the latter.

I'm not incredibly knowledgeable about LRAP's myself, but twenty has pretty convincingly argued that NYU's LRAP is actually superior to some of "HYS". So that's hardly a default. The issue is what type of public interest work.. for some of the more prestige-oriented career tracks or positions where it helps to have clerked on the federal circuit, it makes sense to attend the schools who place more prominently into those positions.

Again, I'm a 0L so I don't know if this means much, but I have a cousin who is about to undergo the NYU LRAP program. Having heard the HLS propaganda about their LIPP (and done considerable outside research to confirm), it sounds as if LRAP at NYU has many many more strings attached, including a 25 year repayment plan, as opposed to 10, being pegged to the fed gov program, and requiring public service in order to qualify for debt forgiveness (HLS LIPP is field-independent).

But take that with the 0L/haven't experienced the process grain of salt.