Indiana Tech Law School Forum

[Fiero85]

I'm not going to lie- if pond cummings wrote an autobiography, I would buy it and read it

I want to sit in on the Hip Hop and the Constitution course.

Don't you mean the hip hop and the constitution course?

[ManoftheHour]

I'm not going to lie- if pond cummings wrote an autobiography, I would buy it and read it

I want to sit in on the Hip Hop and the Constitution course.

Don't you mean the hip hop and the constitution course?

180

[kershka]

I just spent an hour reading through this entire thread. I cannot believe that I had missed this. Golden. The whole thing. Just golden

[BentleyLittle]

I just spent an hour reading through this entire thread. I cannot believe that I had missed this. Golden. The whole thing. Just golden

It's analogous to just finding out about Breaking Bad and watching it unfold in all its glory.

[JCougar]

I really think this school just needs to close up shop. If the reports are true (that there's only 15 students left in the program), there's no way this school will be able to succeed. Especially with the number of applicants in further decline this year. Close up sooner rather than later. Imagine if they admit yet another class this coming fall, only to be forced to close in another year, the school will collapse before it even graduates its first class. Where are these students going to go, then? Sure, some may be able to lateral into another TTTT, but not all may be able to move away from Ft. Wayne. It's time to put this irresponsible experiment to rest.

I can appreciate what these professors are trying to do (offer a more practical education), but they're going about it in totally the wrong way. They're doing it in a highly inefficient manner on the backs of law students who will not be able to repay their debts. It's not the right time and place for another law school. Even if their intentions are in the right place, the effects of their actions are predatory.

A truly innovative law school could figure out how to offer a practical education for like $12K/year. It doesn't take fat-cat salaries and $15 million dollar buildings to train people for the rather simple skill set it requires to practice law. You could do it in a rehabbed warehouse solely with adjunct professors teaching out of Google Scholar (no need to pay $200 for a "casebook," 90% of which is already public record). And you could teach practice by offering local firms free labor for "internships."

This is what Indiana Tech hasn't yet figured out. There would be real demand for their services if they could figure out a business model that allows them to cut tuition across the board to something like $15K/year--before any scholarships are handed out. There's plenty of TTTT dumps out there that applicants would bolt from if they could find a place where they could attend for less than $50K in total debt.

That's real innovation...innovation that Mr. Alexander doesn't seem to be aware of how to accomplish.

[Tiago Splitter]

A truly innovative law school could figure out how to offer a practical education for like $12K/year. It doesn't take fat-cat salaries and $15 million dollar buildings to train people for the rather simple skill set it requires to practice law. You could do it in a rehabbed warehouse solely with adjunct professors teaching out of Google Scholar (no need to pay $200 for a "casebook," 90% of which is already public record).

You're absolutely right, but this is where the ABA's outdated accreditation model really screws everyone. They require a large portion of the professors be full time and tenured and there must be a physical library with a large number of volumes. In the 21st century. What a racket.

[JCougar]

You're absolutely right, but this is where the ABA's outdated accreditation model really screws everyone. They require a large portion of the professors be full time and tenured and there must be a physical library with a large number of volumes. In the 21st century. What a racket.

Even with the same regulations, law schools 30 years ago were many times more efficient. So it's not totally the regulations (although I agree that revising them would only help). For example, a rehabbed warehouse would be the perfect place to shelve a bunch of used books that nobody is going to read anyway. It would still qualify as a "library."

It's also possible to cut professor salaries in half, double their work loads and/or still offer tenure. There are no doubt a lot of desperate aspiring legal academics that would work harder for less.

The real problem is that the entire field of law is just so obsessed with fake "prestige" and image. Practical value means nothing to them. But yet in an ironic twist, it's the fake prestige that they value the most, which creates a market premium for phony credentialism and image that pays off within the legal world.

[didntgo89072014]

I really think this school just needs to close up shop. If the reports are true (that there's only 15 students left in the program),

Do you have a link?

[JCougar]

I really think this school just needs to close up shop. If the reports are true (that there's only 15 students left in the program),

Do you have a link?

It was referenced earlier in this thread...but it was from an anonymous blog comment, so not sure if actually true. It seems plausible, though. They only started out with 28, and the students they took on were severe underachievers/slackers given their median uGPA and LSAT scores. Not surprising that 50% of that group would meet a law school casebook for the first time and say "screw it." Drop out rates from similar schools are similar.

[NYstate]

But what about the artwork?

Lol

[timbs4339]

I doubt that the university is going to invest so much reputational capital and actual capital in opening the law school just to shut it down after a year or two. The general opinion among law schools right now seems to be hope that they can hold out until the applicants come back with only minimal changes to their business model (rather than cut tuition they are giving out big "scholarships").

There really does seem to be a lack of interest in law faculties reforming their own schools. Everything we've seen is either lawprofs spinning off to form their own schools, thus adding more unnecessary JDs to the market, or top down cost-cutting coming from administrations.

[JCougar]

Even if all 28 students stayed on for both fall and spring semesters, the school would be bringing in only $840,000 in operating income.

That number has to be substantially less, however, since a) some of those students will/have drop(ped) out before spring semester tuition is due, and b) others have received some level of merit scholarship which, if not funded through an endowment, is something that will cut into operating income.

Safe to say that this school could easily be bringing in only $500K in income...and the prospects for next year are surely worse.

According to their website, they have 26 staff members, including three Dean/Professors, and two additional tenure-level professors. These five people have to be making over six figures on average, which means their salaries alone are outstripping the school's entire revenue stream this year. And that doesn't even begin to mention the cost of benefits like healthcare, pensions, etc. Then they have five Assistant/Associate Professors. Who knows how much these people are making, but we are already over budget and spilling red ink at this point.

Then there's three additional Assistant Deans/Directors, and 13 additional employees listed as "staff."

This doesn't even include maintinence, grounds crew, etc.

And this is all personnel cost only. I have no idea what their bond payments on the $15MM building cost are, or how much heating/cooling/energy/internet/website costs them.

If they are not able to pull in significantly larger classes in the next three years, there's no way that this place survives. But they won't be able to, because the applicant decline is getting even worse. If they really wanted to serve the public, they would turn this place into a homeless shelter or soup kitchen or something.

[JCougar]

I doubt that the university is going to invest so much reputational capital and actual capital in opening the law school just to shut it down after a year or two.

Yeah, but when they planned and built this place, they surely didn't foresee it hemorrhaging millions of dollars per year, as my analysis above shows it must be doing. It's going to take three years of full classes of 100 or so students to fund their business model (300 students at a time, total). That's now not happening for at least 5 or 6 years, even in the best case scenario, as the current class of 15, plus next year's class (which seemingly can't be better than the 28 that started this year) will require 3 and 4 years respectively from this point in time just for them to cycle through the system.

Unless there is a drastic change in the number of students applying to law school, it's going to be impossible for this place to borrow money to prop up current operations given their balance sheet. Their only funding source will be central. So is it certain that the central Indy Tech university is going to dump millions of dollars into this experiment each year for the next six years in the faint hope that it may produce a positive return sometime within years 7 to 10? They may just decide they're throwing good money after bad.

[Tiago Splitter]

No one expected Indiana Tech to be profitable right from the outset. While it's been more of a failure than any of the trustees could have imagined, the administration will use these low expectations to milk salaries out of the place for at least a few more years. After all, none of the bond debt affects them personally, and all they have to say is that there was always a long term plan in place and things will look better a few years from now. And it really doesn't take much to convince the people in charge that the $15 million dollar building wasn't a waste. Sunk cost fallacy and all.

[JCougar]

No one expected Indiana Tech to be profitable right from the outset.

Yeah, but clearly the plan was 100 students from the outset, and progressively more after that. They're now trying to survive on only 25% of their projected income. That can't last long.

And it really doesn't take much to convince the people in charge that the $15 million dollar building wasn't a waste. Sunk cost fallacy and all.

They won't want to think of it as a waste, but it's a relatively easy decision to turn it into an adjunct facility for their engineering/business schools.

[hiima3L]

I really think this school just needs to close up shop. If the reports are true (that there's only 15 students left in the program), there's no way this school will be able to succeed.

Whoa, where are these reports? That would be incredible. I really, really, really cannot understand how anyone enrolled there, much less stayed enrolled when it became abundantly clear that the school was bound to fail.

ITTTTLS is bad and everyone associated with it should feel bad.

I wonder if any of the profs would ever face any ethical or legal problems. I think anyone with half a brain would agree that their unending promotion of the institution was negligent (if not reckless) at best and outright fraudulent at worst.

[Tiago Splitter]

I wonder if any of the profs would ever face any ethical or legal problems. I think anyone with half a brain would agree that their unending promotion of the institution was negligent (if not reckless) at best and outright fraudulent at worst.

No way. These students were sophisticated consumers. LOLOLOLOL

[hiima3L]

I wonder if any of the profs would ever face any ethical or legal problems. I think anyone with half a brain would agree that their unending promotion of the institution was negligent (if not reckless) at best and outright fraudulent at worst.

No way. These students were sophisticated consumers. LOLOLOLOL

Sigh, that is probably a completely viable defense, isn't it?

[Tiago Splitter]

I wonder if any of the profs would ever face any ethical or legal problems. I think anyone with half a brain would agree that their unending promotion of the institution was negligent (if not reckless) at best and outright fraudulent at worst.

No way. These students were sophisticated consumers. LOLOLOLOL

Sigh, that is probably a completely viable defense, isn't it?

Worked for NYLS unfortunately.

[JCougar]

Just taking a gander at Indy Tech's campus map and other degree offerings, it's a very, very small school and campus. Looks like they have an Enginerring building and a Business building, but not much else other than athletic fields and a pretty big and expensive-looking "commons." But just two classroom buildings in total.

They do not grant PhD's. They do some online MS degrees, but it's mostly a small undergrad institution that focuses on engineering and business BA's. They also have a "College of General Studies," a "Center for Criminal Sciences," and a School of Education. But that's about it. No other areas of study are offered. Well, besides a degree in "Fashion Marketing & Management"...LOL.

This isn't the kind of school that can dump millions of dollars into lawprof salaries and bond repayment. They're going to be forced to turn that building into something financially productive pretty soon. Probably better to just use it as a community college extension, etc.

[sighsigh]

I just got an advertisement email stating that Indiana Tech law's tuition for the 2014-2015 school year is 29.5k.

Tuition for the 2014-2015 school year has been set at $29,500.00, making us one of the most reasonably priced private (non-profit) law schools in the nation.

So it looks like their tuition will remain constant from the 2013-2014 school year, which was also set at 29.5k. http://law.indianatech.edu/admissions/costs/tuition/

I'm interested in following the likely financial implosion of this school.

[NYstate]

I really think this school just needs to close up shop. If the reports are true (that there's only 15 students left in the program), there's no way this school will be able to succeed.

Whoa, where are these reports? That would be incredible. I really, really, really cannot understand how anyone enrolled there, much less stayed enrolled when it became abundantly clear that the school was bound to fail.

ITTTTLS is bad and everyone associated with it should feel bad.

I wonder if any of the profs would ever face any ethical or legal problems. I think anyone with half a brain would agree that their unending promotion of the institution was negligent (if not reckless) at best and outright fraudulent at worst.

What is incredibly irritating is that when we called the Dean out very directly on the reasons why this school was a bad plan and criticized their motivation, he decided we were too rude to talk to. He thought we were the unethical lawyers in this thread.

I hope every Indiana Tech potential student finds this thread via Google and reads it carefully.

Right now, they have more staff than.students in their one room schoolhouse..We predicted it, but the Dean decided the best way to respond was to shun us for being rude. Didn't blind Mary Ingalls run a school this size on Little House on the Prarie? Or was that Laura?

Just lol at this entire endeavor and everyone associated with it.

[JCougar]

I mean at this point, they have the building anyway, so you might as well fill it up. Instead of enrolling 25 students at $30K/year, try to enroll 100 students at 10K/year. That's more income, and the added overhead cost of enrolling another student is pretty much zilch. That way, your school is not an embarrassing disgrace, and there's at least people walking around in the halls.

The only problem with that is how to find 100 students that want to spend 3 years in Fort Wayne, regardless of the price. But I think you could start pulling people from Valpo, Cooley, and some of the other festering TTTs in the Midwest (there's a few in Ohio).

Start to put serious downward price pressure on these TTT schools.

[Tiago Splitter]

I mean at this point, they have the building anyway, so you might as well fill it up. Instead of enrolling 25 students at $30K/year, try to enroll 100 students at 10K/year. That's more income, and the added overhead cost of enrolling another student is pretty much zilch. That way, your school is not an embarrassing disgrace, and there's at least people walking around in the halls.

The only problem with that is how to find 100 students that want to spend 3 years in Fort Wayne, regardless of the price. But I think you could start pulling people from Valpo, Cooley, and some of the other festering TTTs in the Midwest (there's a few in Ohio).

Start to put serious downward price pressure on these TTT schools.

For all we know the people attending are only paying 10k per year. The unfortunate reality is that the current loan system disconnects students from the actual cost of law school, so lowering the price doesn't do much. And to the extent people have a problem with the price, the school will just give them a "scholarship" to bring it down to a more acceptable level. I think the truth is what you said; they can't possibly find 100 people to attend, even for free. Given that they already have faculty on hand and a branch new facility, the marginal cost of adding more students is basically zero, and yet here they are with somewhere between 15 and 28. To improve their credibility and actually develop a real pipeline of suckers they would do well to just straight up pay people to attend next year.

[JCougar]

For all we know the people attending are only paying 10k per year. The unfortunate reality is that the current loan system disconnects students from the actual cost of law school, so lowering the price doesn't do much. And to the extent people have a problem with the price, the school will just give them a "scholarship" to bring it down to a more acceptable level. I think the truth is what you said; they can't possibly find 100 people to attend, even for free. Given that they already have faculty on hand and a branch new facility, the marginal cost of adding more students is basically zero, and yet here they are with somewhere between 15 and 28. To improve their credibility and actually develop a real pipeline of suckers they would do well to just straight up pay people to attend next year.

You would think this was the case, but the reality is that TTT schools are usually much worse when it comes to handing out scholarships, since they have little to no endowment. I find it hard to believe that Indy Tech is really bucking that trend. Maybe I am wrong...