Take the money and Run; YS - CCNH? Forum

[DrStudMuffin]

Almost all clerks go to private practice after. E.g. 91% at U of C.

I'm not disputing your general point or taking emu's side by any means, but I was told by a student and a recent alum from S and Y that the percentage of clerks going into private practice is lower than this from those two schools (I assume H is similar but can't speak to that). Then again, they may have just been speculating.

Not that this really changes much, as I imagine it's still quite high (80%+), but I figured it was worth mentioning. If any current students from YHS have data on this that would be interesting.

There's also some incentive at least at Stanford to go into PI/Gov after a clerkship, as Stanford's LRAP covers your loan payments for the time you clerked if you do so. Can't speak to YH.

[rayiner]

Almost all clerks go to private practice after. E.g. 91% at U of C.

I'm not disputing your general point or taking emu's side by any means, but I was told by a student and a recent alum from S and Y that the percentage of clerks going into private practice is lower than this from those two schools (I assume H is similar but can't speak to that). Then again, they may have just been speculating.

Not that this really changes much, as I imagine it's still quite high (80%+), but I figured it was worth mentioning. If any current students from YHS have data on this that would be interesting.

There's also some incentive at least at Stanford to go into PI/Gov after a clerkship, as Stanford's LRAP covers your loan payments for the time you clerked if you do so. Can't speak to YH.

You're right. At Y in 2011, it was a little over half of clerks going to private practice. From 2007-2012, it was 55-60% of the whole class as their first non clerk job. Down from over 70% for 2002-2005.

[star fox]

Law school prestige is like the value of a new car -- it depreciates by about 40% by the second week of law school, and by 90% within a few years of graduation. But it sure has a nice smell at ASW.

This is a great post,

[jbagelboy]

Less than half, actually (34% at Y, 45% at S, 52% at H).

Are you an 0L? You do realize that clerkships are 1-2 year gigs, and the vast majority of clerks are headed back to their summer firms after, yes? Like overwhelming majority. 80+% of HS students summer at large firms, and of them, nearly all return.

There's nothing to suggest it's the vast majority--why would the percentages not be in line with employment outcomes minus clerkships straight out of law school? That is, if 10% clerk, 45% do biglaw, and 45% do PI (oversimplification), and in the employment outcome statistics you skip the 1-2 years clerking, why would the numbers not be ~50% biglaw, ~50% PI (same relative percentages)? I'd even argue that those interested in clerking are, on the whole, less interested in biglaw than the average.

But that's beside the point. YHS give you a better chance to clerk, regardless of where you end up afterwards.

Sometimes, it's okay to admit you are wrong because aren't a law student or grad yet and don't really know any better.

As for the bolded, what does it even mean for you to "argue" this? What is the value or contribution of your "argument" when you have absolutely zero basis for it? I don't understand.

There's everything to suggest that the vast majority of clerks go back to their summer firms, in fact, and hardly anything to suggest otherwise. Empirically, the data shows that more than half Yale students and upwards of 80% of HSCC students work in firms after their clerkships. But moreover, consider the incentives. For one, it is most likely their only standing offer upon completion of the clerkship. It's still incredibly difficult to get a federal government gig without the experience and training as an associate: you come out of law school with basically zero skills, everyone knows that, and the firms "train" you in theory. Second, many of these students still have substantial loans to pay off, and it takes quite a bit of gumption or knowledge of alternate (rich parents) sources of income to turn down the firm clerkship bonus. Third, many students pursuing clerkships are doing so because they have an interest in litigating, and most litigators start on the defense side. You can transition to USAO and prosecute after a few years at a firm and a clerkship helps with that, but rarely immediately. Fourth, you can't just jump into "public interest" after worked (summered) at a large corporate law firm. And chambers is not particularly good training for many public interest organizations (except impact litigation stuff). If you're committed to PI with any sincerity, you've typically pursued a different trajectory than 2L SA -> fed clerk.

Some students will find unique opportunities to leave their clerkships and head directly to government or tenure-track fellowships. But factually speaking, it's a minority.

As for this being "besides the point", that's an interesting perspective since you brought it up. No one is denying YS send more students to chambers than other law schools; but clerking isn't for everyone (see transactional work) and unless it's rationally related to your goals it's not worth hundreds of thousands of dollars for the increased shot at it.

[Hipster but Athletic]

Law school prestige is like the value of a new car -- it depreciates by about 40% by the second week of law school, and by 90% within a few years of graduation. But it sure has a nice smell at ASW.

This is a great post,

campos clearly hasn't played in the north grounds softball league annual tournament

[dresden doll]

I'm so confused by the people who are trying to make the claim that YHS is worth it if you're trying to do PI. What kind of PI are we talking about? Bc according to the PI people on this site, your school matters much less than it does for private practice. Top schools give you an advantage in terms of support, with fellowships and the like, but the name advantage is relatively muted.

It's not muted, particularly if you're talking advocacy orgs as opposed to direct service providers. Also, you're extremely unlikely to get an entry level position, so fellowship-style support is incredibly important.

[worldtraveler]

I'm so confused by the people who are trying to make the claim that YHS is worth it if you're trying to do PI. What kind of PI are we talking about? Bc according to the PI people on this site, your school matters much less than it does for private practice. Top schools give you an advantage in terms of support, with fellowships and the like, but the name advantage is relatively muted.

It's not muted, particularly if you're talking advocacy orgs as opposed to direct service providers. Also, you're extremely unlikely to get an entry level position, so fellowship-style support is incredibly important.

I'm waiting for people to realize that if you are going the PI route, it does not matter if your debt is 80k or 280k. You will not be able to pay it back, so you either need no debt or LRAP/PSLF.

[emu42]

Less than half, actually (34% at Y, 45% at S, 52% at H).

Are you an 0L? You do realize that clerkships are 1-2 year gigs, and the vast majority of clerks are headed back to their summer firms after, yes? Like overwhelming majority. 80+% of HS students summer at large firms, and of them, nearly all return.

There's nothing to suggest it's the vast majority--why would the percentages not be in line with employment outcomes minus clerkships straight out of law school? That is, if 10% clerk, 45% do biglaw, and 45% do PI (oversimplification), and in the employment outcome statistics you skip the 1-2 years clerking, why would the numbers not be ~50% biglaw, ~50% PI (same relative percentages)? I'd even argue that those interested in clerking are, on the whole, less interested in biglaw than the average.

But that's beside the point. YHS give you a better chance to clerk, regardless of where you end up afterwards.

Sometimes, it's okay to admit you are wrong because aren't a law student or grad yet and don't really know any better.

As for the bolded, what does it even mean for you to "argue" this? What is the value or contribution of your "argument" when you have absolutely zero basis for it? I don't understand.

There's everything to suggest that the vast majority of clerks go back to their summer firms, in fact, and hardly anything to suggest otherwise. Empirically, the data shows that more than half Yale students and upwards of 80% of HSCC students work in firms after their clerkships. But moreover, consider the incentives. For one, it is most likely their only standing offer upon completion of the clerkship. It's still incredibly difficult to get a federal government gig without the experience and training as an associate: you come out of law school with basically zero skills, everyone knows that, and the firms "train" you in theory. Second, many of these students still have substantial loans to pay off, and it takes quite a bit of gumption or knowledge of alternate (rich parents) sources of income to turn down the firm clerkship bonus. Third, many students pursuing clerkships are doing so because they have an interest in litigating, and most litigators start on the defense side. You can transition to USAO and prosecute after a few years at a firm and a clerkship helps with that, but rarely immediately. Fourth, you can't just jump into "public interest" after worked (summered) at a large corporate law firm. And chambers is not particularly good training for many public interest organizations (except impact litigation stuff). If you're committed to PI with any sincerity, you've typically pursued a different trajectory than 2L SA -> fed clerk.

Some students will find unique opportunities to leave their clerkships and head directly to government or tenure-track fellowships. But factually speaking, it's a minority.

As for this being "besides the point", that's an interesting perspective since you brought it up. No one is denying YS send more students to chambers than other law schools; but clerking isn't for everyone (see transactional work) and unless it's rationally related to your goals it's not worth hundreds of thousands of dollars for the increased shot at it.

Yeah, this still has absolutely nothing to do with my point. I don't care where people are working after clerking, and I shouldn't have brought it up. But even if you assume EVERY SINGLE PERSON who clerks goes on to do biglaw, that's still only about half the people at YHS.

Back to my point:
If you really want to clerk, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you really want to do PI, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you really want to go into academia, you have better opportunities at the better school
If your parents are rich, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you are okay with taking on debt, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you are fine living off a lesser income, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you want a better education, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you like the area better, or want to work there after graduation, you will have a better time at the better school.

There are so many reasons to not take the bigger scholarship. To oversimplify it is so insanely stupid that I'm only upset I dignified this stupid thread with a response.

[emu42]

At HLS. If you ignore clerks, still only 15% do Gov. or PI. So even if the Clerks went to PI and Gov at the same rate as regular students, the vast majority are going to biglaw after.

The best way to tell is to check what they do during their 2L summer.

Also lol emu http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3#p7649103

So being a 0L precludes me from doing math/talking to current students and recent grads? Why do you pick out HLS and ignore Y and S, both of which put less people in firms? And finally, this thread assumes people who go into biglaw stay in biglaw forever. Okay, I mean, this entire thread is an absurd oversimplification. But it's clear how little anything said here applies to me personally,* and I hope others realize this too.



*Won't be taking out huge loans, plan to clerk and ideally go into academia down the road with some PI in between after perhaps working at a firm for a few years

[emu42]

If making money is your only reason/ consideration in choosing a law school. yes.

If it's not you will sorely disappointed. The money is the only good part.

I guess this is the quote I take the most issue with. People like this are the absolute worst.

[MKC]

If making money is your only reason/ consideration in choosing a law school. yes.

If it's not you will sorely disappointed. The money is the only good part.

I guess this is the quote I take the most issue with. People like this are the absolute worst.

Might want to check with some practicing attorneys on this

[Blessedassurance]

As usual, we disagree and this "experiential" analysis is a load of crap. We all get it you think your law school was the tits and anything differently ranked is varying degrees of crap. But you really wouldn't know would you because you've never attended another law school. I agree school and experience matter, but not in this pretentious sliding scale. Somehow, Im doubting the UChicago students graduating with $100K less than their peers at Harvard are crying themselves to sleep every night over the deficiencies of their "student experience." There's far more difference in "student experience" for example between a small, western school like Stanford and a huge, new england ivy like Harvard than between Columbia and Harvard or Stanford and Cal. Your breakdown is stupid and your rationalizations, other than the career opportunities which we all acknowledge to be valid considerations, are asinine.

were you rejected by harvard? every post i've seen you make involves a rant about harvard in particular.

[twenty 8]

For those of us who have 0% of our income go toward tuition debt, the suggestion that the only way to achieve a successful outcome is to pile up thousands of dollars in monthly tuition debt is ludicrous.

As others have alluded to, if you have a solid GPA and a good LSAT, law school can be relatively inexpensive. At that point success is about grades and interviewing skills.

[Johann]

For those of us who have 0% of our income go toward tuition debt, the suggestion that the only way to achieve a successful outcome is to pile up thousands of dollars in monthly tuition debt is ludicrous.

As others have alluded to, if you have a solid GPA and a good LSAT, law school can be relatively inexpensive. At that point success is about grades and interviewing skills.

Who is saying the only way to success is through massive debt and prestige? I believe the theme is just the opposite.

[Johann]

Back to my point:
If you really want to clerk, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you really want to do PI, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you really want to go into academia, you have better opportunities at the better school
If your parents are rich, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you are okay with taking on debt, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you are fine living off a lesser income, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you want a better education, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you like the area better, or want to work there after graduation, you will have a better time at the better school.

There are so many reasons to not take the bigger scholarship. To oversimplify it is so insanely stupid that I'm only upset I dignified this stupid thread with a response.

Dumbest shit ever. If you are really that great you will get these opportunities out of CCN. A good deal of profs come out of CCN these days. Based on this post I think you'll fit right in at HYS though.

[Blessedassurance]

Yeah, the point is probably exaggerated...but when I think about it, my friends who didn't go the college route are generally pretty happy working/raising kids with a retail/food service/whatever 20/25k job. On a day to day basis anyway, they seem a whole lot happier than a lot of the people on this site!

http://www.newhealthguide.org/Highest-S ... ssion.html

[twenty 8]

For those of us who have 0% of our income go toward tuition debt, the suggestion that the only way to achieve a successful outcome is to pile up thousands of dollars in monthly tuition debt is ludicrous.

As others have alluded to, if you have a solid GPA and a good LSAT, law school can be relatively inexpensive. At that point success is about grades and interviewing skills.

Who is saying the only way to success is through massive debt and prestige? I believe the theme is just the opposite.

Given that the average tuition debt is sky high, not everyone is clued into the notion that less is more.

[Mal Reynolds]

I don't get the thread title. TTMAR minus sticker?

Your peanut brain is really working overdrive recently.

[emu42]

Back to my point:
If you really want to clerk, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you really want to do PI, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you really want to go into academia, you have better opportunities at the better school
If your parents are rich, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you are okay with taking on debt, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you are fine living off a lesser income, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you want a better education, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you like the area better, or want to work there after graduation, you will have a better time at the better school.

There are so many reasons to not take the bigger scholarship. To oversimplify it is so insanely stupid that I'm only upset I dignified this stupid thread with a response.

Dumbest shit ever. If you are really that great you will get these opportunities out of CCN. A good deal of profs come out of CCN these days. Based on this post I think you'll fit right in at HYS though.

Why is it dumb? Because I want different things from you? And yeah, I'm glad I'll "fit right in at HYS" if that means I'll be with a bunch of people who care about things other than $$$.

[Johann]

Back to my point:
If you really want to clerk, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you really want to do PI, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you really want to go into academia, you have better opportunities at the better school
If your parents are rich, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you are okay with taking on debt, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you are fine living off a lesser income, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you want a better education, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you like the area better, or want to work there after graduation, you will have a better time at the better school.

There are so many reasons to not take the bigger scholarship. To oversimplify it is so insanely stupid that I'm only upset I dignified this stupid thread with a response.

Dumbest shit ever. If you are really that great you will get these opportunities out of CCN. A good deal of profs come out of CCN these days. Based on this post I think you'll fit right in at HYS though.

Why is it dumb? Because I want different things from you? And yeah, I'm glad I'll "fit right in at HYS" if that means I'll be with a bunch of people who care about things other than $$$.

Because you can clerk, do PI, go into academia, etc etc all out of CCN. LOL at a better education. Look at the profs who teach at any TT. The education is all the same. The only thing worth paying for is the opps afterwards.

[emu42]

Back to my point:
If you really want to clerk, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you really want to do PI, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you really want to go into academia, you have better opportunities at the better school
If your parents are rich, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you are okay with taking on debt, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you are fine living off a lesser income, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you want a better education, you have better opportunities at the better school
If you like the area better, or want to work there after graduation, you will have a better time at the better school.

There are so many reasons to not take the bigger scholarship. To oversimplify it is so insanely stupid that I'm only upset I dignified this stupid thread with a response.

Dumbest shit ever. If you are really that great you will get these opportunities out of CCN. A good deal of profs come out of CCN these days. Based on this post I think you'll fit right in at HYS though.

Why is it dumb? Because I want different things from you? And yeah, I'm glad I'll "fit right in at HYS" if that means I'll be with a bunch of people who care about things other than $$$.

Because you can clerk, do PI, go into academia, etc etc all out of CCN. LOL at a better education. Look at the profs who teach at any TT. The education is all the same. The only thing worth paying for is the opps afterwards.

You can, but the opportunities are slightly better out of HYS. An yeah, quality of education is identical at all HYSCCNetcetc--it's just a general consideration.

It's definitely worth paying for the opportunities (not just academic opportunities) during, as well as after, law school.

[banjo]

Law school prestige is like the value of a new car -- it depreciates by about 40% by the second week of law school, and by 90% within a few years of graduation. But it sure has a nice smell at ASW.

This is so true.

Also, once you turn 25 or 26, you become an Actual Adult and care less about prestige in general.

[Blessedassurance]

I would still like to know what percentage of graduating seniors/people who have been out and working in this economy 1-3 years (so it's a fair comparison) and went to HYS after taking out significant debt actually regret it. It just seems that we don't usually hear from them on these boards, we hear from people who tell us that those other people regret it.

I've never once seen anyone on this board say they regretted YS over lower T14 with discount. I don't read all the threads, and these are really small schools so its obviously not that meaningful in any way. I've seen maybe 2-3 anecdotes of people who took H at sticker and regret not taking CCNP with money.

that's because the s, and to a lesser extent, y tls crowd, are pretty cult-ish (with exceptions). anyways, it's a silly yardstick to base anything on. to the preceding question, why would a graduating senior's regret or lack thereof, be of any relevance? they've neither started working or making loan payments.

[Blessedassurance]

I know an H grad who left law to start a legal technology startup with an S grad. I think their school names helped them land VC funding. But 99% of law students are too chicken to do that, and crushing law school debt makes it that much harder.

unrelated, but:

http://blogs.wsj.com/personal-technolog ... uto-email/

hls actually produces a lot of entrepreneurs, venture capitalists, partner's at investment firms etc. granted, a lot of them started in biglaw.

it's also amusing to hear all the noise from the columbia/chicago contingent. 75% of yalies receive need-based financial aid of some sort (http://www.law.yale.edu/about/fastfacts.htm). 80% do at stanford (https://www.law.stanford.edu/organizati ... ancial-aid).

In contrast, only half receive scholarships at chicago (http://www.law.uchicago.edu/prospective/financialaid) etc.

Nobody should pay sticker anywhere but paying sticker is more of a problem at chicago and columbia than at ys. also paying sticker everywhere outside hys means you're subsidizing the education of some other dude who answered 3 more questions correctly on the lsat.

[Blessedassurance]

Are you an 0L? You do realize that clerkships are 1-2 year gigs, and the vast majority of clerks are headed back to their summer firms after, yes? Like overwhelming majority. 80+% of HS students summer at large firms, and of them, nearly all return.

where do the yalies go?