Take the money and Run; YS - CCNH? Forum

[EquallyWrong]

This thread misses the issue. Its not whether HYS at sticker is worth it (it isnt, you shouldnt go to HYS unless you get need-based/parental help). But sticker at the rest of the T13 can be worth it. If you are a 0L who wants to work in NY, and you have the option of sticker at T13 or 90k scholly at WUSTL, hell if Im not taking T13

To be fair, there is the whole rest of the board for people to get info and thoughtful considerations where they can say what they want to do and what their situation is in depth.

This thread is mostly about people calling each other snowflakes and misunderstanding the job market as far as I can tell. Other than that, the title basically says all it needs to...it's 20 pages, though, because of people dumping their major life decision anxieties on each other in a never ending, waterwheel cycle.

[cotiger]

I'm so confused by the people who are trying to make the claim that YHS is worth it if you're trying to do PI. What kind of PI are we talking about? Bc according to the PI people on this site, your school matters much less than it does for private practice. Top schools give you an advantage in terms of support, with fellowships and the like, but the name advantage is relatively muted. If we're only talking about "prestigious" FedGov stuff, that actually pays a decent (and steadily increasing) wage, so you're still going to be paying a pretty penny, even with LIPP.

Also, these comments aren't coming from money-obsessed people who are just jealous they couldn't get into YHS, as some are insinuating. Personally, I would really love to clerk, and academia sounds awesome to me if it weren't such a pipe dream, even from Harvard. I got into Harvard and Stanford, but am turning them down because the slightly increased chances of those things are not worth the guarantee of going into an extra $190k vs full-ride NU or an extra $135k vs UChi.

[EquallyWrong]

I'm so confused by the people who are trying to make the claim that YHS is worth it if you're trying to do PI. What kind of PI are we talking about? Bc according to the PI people on this site, your school matters much less than it does for private practice. Top schools give you an advantage in terms of support, with fellowships and the like, but the name advantage is relatively muted. If we're only talking about "prestigious" FedGov stuff, that actually pays a decent (and steadily increasing) wage, so you're still going to be paying a pretty penny, even with LIPP.

Also, these comments aren't coming from money-obsessed people who are just jealous they couldn't get into YHS, as some are insinuating. Personally, I would really love to clerk, and academia sounds awesome to me if it weren't such a pipe dream, even from Harvard. I got into Harvard and Stanford, but am turning them down because the slightly increased chances of those things are not worth the guarantee of going into an extra $190k vs full-ride NU or an extra $135k vs UChi.

I'd take the money...probably, rather than try and be the next Ronan Farrow.
To put it in terms that might resonate more with the liberal arts crowd: hubris leads to great personal misfortune...haven't you read Oedipus Rex?

[rayiner]

All I've learned from this thread is that I'm happy I'm not going to Northwestern, if people there are like this. There are things in the world other than money, and there are jobs other than biglaw. Just because YOU only care about these things doesn't mean others do.

You said law school is only worth it for the money. Well, then why the hell are you going to law school and not going straight into some finance field? There are some people who go to law school because they care about some cause, or because they like to teach and research, or because they (gasp!) like the material. Maybe you don't. But there are plenty who do. So please, STFU. You sound like you're butthurt you didn't get into Yale. Well, you'd be a fish out of water at Yale anyway, since (mostly) everyone there wants to clerk/go into academia.

If you're going to law school just for money, it is not worth it.

If you have a concrete reason to go to law school that isn't money/big law, more power to you. Some of the happiest people I know make $45k/year in public interest jobs. But guess what: most people at YHS end up in big law. And big law is a terrible place for people who love the law.

As for clerking, for 90% of people its just a one year respite from big law. Its fun, and everybody is really impressed, but at the end of the day you're scrambling for the same big law jobs as everyone else.

Here's my response to the "butthurt about not getting YHS shtick." All the practicing lawyers ITT work with YHS grads. The NYC V5 where I worked was full of them. And guess what: big law isn't any better for them than for anyone else. I'd hate to be an HLS grad at say Clearly and realize I could've been in the exact same place, without doing any better in law school, having gone to Columbia with $$. But that's the modal outcome at least for H. You seem to think there's a magic set of jobs reserved for HYS. There isn't. Even YHS are on the outside looking in at DOJ, SCOTUS, ACLU, academia, etc. If they weren't, so many of them wouldn't go to big law.

People imagine that there are these unicorn non-biglaw jobs out there. And there are. But not very many, and most really don't give the same disproportionate weight to HYS as firms. Most of those interesting non-big law jobs are in state and federal government. These employers care more about grades and less about law school prestige than firms do.

[NYSprague]

All I've learned from this thread is that I'm happy I'm not going to Northwestern, if people there are like this. There are things in the world other than money, and there are jobs other than biglaw. Just because YOU only care about these things doesn't mean others do.

You said law school is only worth it for the money. Well, then why the hell are you going to law school and not going straight into some finance field? There are some people who go to law school because they care about some cause, or because they like to teach and research, or because they (gasp!) like the material. Maybe you don't. But there are plenty who do. So please, STFU. You sound like you're butthurt you didn't get into Yale. Well, you'd be a fish out of water at Yale anyway, since (mostly) everyone there wants to clerk/go into academia.

If you're going to law school just for money, it is not worth it.

If you have a concrete reason to go to law school that isn't money/big law, more power to you. Some of the happiest people I know make $45k/year in public interest jobs. But guess what: most people at YHS end up in big law. And big law is a terrible place for people who love the law.

As for clerking, for 90% of people its just a one year respite from big law. Its fun, and everybody is really impressed, but at the end of the day you're scrambling for the same big law jobs as everyone else.

Here's my response to the "butthurt about not getting YHS shtick." All the practicing lawyers ITT work with YHS grads. The NYC V5 where I worked was full of them. And guess what: big law isn't any better for them than for anyone else. I'd hate to be an HLS grad at say Clearly and realize I could've been in the exact same place, without doing any better in law school, having gone to Columbia with $$. But that's the modal outcome at least for H. You seem to think there's a magic set of jobs reserved for HYS. There isn't. Even YHS are on the outside looking in at DOJ, SCOTUS, ACLU, academia, etc. If they weren't, so many of them wouldn't go to big law.

But Rayiner is a clerk, right? Guess northwestern was ok for that for him.

Edit: I know one Stanford law grad who isn't in biglaw but that is because he started rapgenious while on deferral from Dewey during the crash. They fired him, but later collapsed in a spectacle, so I guess it all worked out. He went to Yale undergrad. I don't think he had debt,though, so probably not relevant to this thread. His site is great and he seems happy with his life.

[09042014]

The Dept. of Ed. wipes out YHS loans right? They are too prestigious for debt right?

[Paul Campos]

Law school prestige is like the value of a new car -- it depreciates by about 40% by the second week of law school, and by 90% within a few years of graduation. But it sure has a nice smell at ASW.

[muskies970]

ITT people who never had a chance at YSH will tell you that those who were accepted are idiots.

+1

[jbagelboy]

ITT people who never had a chance at YSH will tell you that those who were accepted are idiots.

+1

It's a stupid thread, but this is not accurate. Moreover, this attitude will cause most of the people you interact with to dislike you for the rest of your life.

[09042014]

ITT people who haven't worked a day as a lawyer or paid back a cent of student loans think they are hot shit because they got into a law school.

What are you bitches going to do when a St. Johns grad chews your ass out for fucking up an assignment? Call your dean?

[rayiner]

All I've learned from this thread is that I'm happy I'm not going to Northwestern, if people there are like this. There are things in the world other than money, and there are jobs other than biglaw. Just because YOU only care about these things doesn't mean others do.

You said law school is only worth it for the money. Well, then why the hell are you going to law school and not going straight into some finance field? There are some people who go to law school because they care about some cause, or because they like to teach and research, or because they (gasp!) like the material. Maybe you don't. But there are plenty who do. So please, STFU. You sound like you're butthurt you didn't get into Yale. Well, you'd be a fish out of water at Yale anyway, since (mostly) everyone there wants to clerk/go into academia.

If you're going to law school just for money, it is not worth it.

If you have a concrete reason to go to law school that isn't money/big law, more power to you. Some of the happiest people I know make $45k/year in public interest jobs. But guess what: most people at YHS end up in big law. And big law is a terrible place for people who love the law.

As for clerking, for 90% of people its just a one year respite from big law. Its fun, and everybody is really impressed, but at the end of the day you're scrambling for the same big law jobs as everyone else.

Here's my response to the "butthurt about not getting YHS shtick." All the practicing lawyers ITT work with YHS grads. The NYC V5 where I worked was full of them. And guess what: big law isn't any better for them than for anyone else. I'd hate to be an HLS grad at say Clearly and realize I could've been in the exact same place, without doing any better in law school, having gone to Columbia with $$. But that's the modal outcome at least for H. You seem to think there's a magic set of jobs reserved for HYS. There isn't. Even YHS are on the outside looking in at DOJ, SCOTUS, ACLU, academia, etc. If they weren't, so many of them wouldn't go to big law.

But Rayiner is a clerk, right? Guess northwestern was ok for that for him.

Edit: I know one Stanford law grad who isn't in biglaw but that is because he started rapgenious while on deferral from Dewey during the crash. They fired him, but later collapsed in a spectacle, so I guess it all worked out. He went to Yale undergrad. I don't think he had debt,though, so probably not relevant to this thread. His site is great and he seems happy with his life.

I know an H grad who left law to start a legal technology startup with an S grad. I think their school names helped them land VC funding. But 99% of law students are too chicken to do that, and crushing law school debt makes it that much harder.

[withoutapaddle]

Difficult subjects like "compound interest" or "negative amortization" be damned

That's basic business math on the other hand advanced calculus bent me over (Thank god for advanced calculators)

I agree though that law school does offer a chance to better our careers if we're not where we want to be. With that said-Anything above 200K in loans is ridicolous

[jbagelboy]

I know an H grad who left law to start a legal technology startup with an S grad. I think their school names helped them land VC funding. But 99% of law students are too chicken to do that, and crushing law school debt makes it that much harder.

Isn't a large part of this discussion that going to one of those schools in total abstract may provide unquantifiable/unforeseen advantages down the line, but not in relation to the relevant alternatives? We aren't comparing going to Harvard and going to UC Davis or not going at all. We're comparing it with another very prestigious school with exactly comparable opportunities for nearly the entire class, but at less financial burden. Kids from Penn, Chicago, ect. make it big (presumably with the hidden asset of their pedigree) all the time. Gotta stick apples to apples or the whole ontology devolves to absurdities

[NYSprague]

I know an H grad who left law to start a legal technology startup with an S grad. I think their school names helped them land VC funding. But 99% of law students are too chicken to do that, and crushing law school debt makes it that much harder.

Isn't a large part of this discussion that going to one of those schools in total abstract may provide unquantifiable/unforeseen advantages down the line, but not in relation to the relevant alternatives? We aren't comparing going to Harvard and going to UC Davis or not going at all. We're comparing it with another very prestigious school with exactly comparable opportunities for nearly the entire class, but at less financial burden. Kids from Penn, Chicago, ect. make it big (presumably with the hidden asset of their pedigree) all the time. Gotta stick apples to apples or the whole ontology devolves to absurdities

Eh, if these kids want to pay sticker at Harvard so they can later begin startups, let them go ahead. Mostly they just want to have tantrums about why the practicing lawyers are wrong.

[Dafaq]

To me the formula is…. on a 10 year payout your monthly debt service should not exceed $1,000. Period. If you can attend HYS or CCNP using that formula, terrific. If you can’t then dip down, but stay in the tier 1 or a strong regional tier 2. If you cannot accomplish that, retake the LSAT. If that doesn’t work, do yourself a big favor, move on.

How much of debt is that approx?

My debt is slightly over 80k. It would have been over $100k if I hadn’t plowed nearly every SA paycheck into a cubby hole. I suppose I could pay off my debt in less than 10 years, but I am sticking with my 1K a month payout. This gives me the dry gunpowder for a home, furniture and it allows me to keep my bartender happy.

My takeaway from this thread is… if you land a $$$ gig, it’s because of your high sticker prestigious LS. If you come up short, it’s because of your inadequacy and not the fault of the big ticket LS. If you pass up sticker and still ca$$$$h in, you’re just lucky.

[IAFG]

My takeaway from this thread is… if you land a $$$ gig, it’s because of your high sticker prestigious LS. If you come up short, it’s because of your inadequacy and not the fault of the big ticket LS. If you pass up sticker and still ca$$$$h in, you’re just lucky.

Wait you realize all these statements are supported by the data right

[emu42]

All I've learned from this thread is that I'm happy I'm not going to Northwestern, if people there are like this. There are things in the world other than money, and there are jobs other than biglaw. Just because YOU only care about these things doesn't mean others do.

You said law school is only worth it for the money. Well, then why the hell are you going to law school and not going straight into some finance field? There are some people who go to law school because they care about some cause, or because they like to teach and research, or because they (gasp!) like the material. Maybe you don't. But there are plenty who do. So please, STFU. You sound like you're butthurt you didn't get into Yale. Well, you'd be a fish out of water at Yale anyway, since (mostly) everyone there wants to clerk/go into academia.

If you're going to law school just for money, it is not worth it.

But guess what: most people at YHS end up in big law.

Less than half, actually (34% at Y, 45% at S, 52% at H).

[Hipster but Athletic]

I don't get the thread title. TTMAR minus sticker?

[NYSprague]

Don't most clerks go into biglaw when they finish? I know all biglaw firms offer a clerkship bonus. I'm in corporate so I don't know, but I thought most clerks go into, or back to, biglaw.

I don't remember seeing data on this but it's probably out there.

[patogordo]

I don't get the thread title. TTMAR minus sticker?

equals stupid

[jbagelboy]

All I've learned from this thread is that I'm happy I'm not going to Northwestern, if people there are like this. There are things in the world other than money, and there are jobs other than biglaw. Just because YOU only care about these things doesn't mean others do.

You said law school is only worth it for the money. Well, then why the hell are you going to law school and not going straight into some finance field? There are some people who go to law school because they care about some cause, or because they like to teach and research, or because they (gasp!) like the material. Maybe you don't. But there are plenty who do. So please, STFU. You sound like you're butthurt you didn't get into Yale. Well, you'd be a fish out of water at Yale anyway, since (mostly) everyone there wants to clerk/go into academia.

If you're going to law school just for money, it is not worth it.

But guess what: most people at YHS end up in big law.

Less than half, actually (34% at Y, 45% at S, 52% at H).

Are you an 0L? You do realize that clerkships are 1-2 year gigs, and the vast majority of clerks are headed back to their summer firms after, yes? Like overwhelming majority. 80+% of HS students summer at large firms, and of them, nearly all return.

[emu42]

All I've learned from this thread is that I'm happy I'm not going to Northwestern, if people there are like this. There are things in the world other than money, and there are jobs other than biglaw. Just because YOU only care about these things doesn't mean others do.

You said law school is only worth it for the money. Well, then why the hell are you going to law school and not going straight into some finance field? There are some people who go to law school because they care about some cause, or because they like to teach and research, or because they (gasp!) like the material. Maybe you don't. But there are plenty who do. So please, STFU. You sound like you're butthurt you didn't get into Yale. Well, you'd be a fish out of water at Yale anyway, since (mostly) everyone there wants to clerk/go into academia.

If you're going to law school just for money, it is not worth it.

But guess what: most people at YHS end up in big law.

Less than half, actually (34% at Y, 45% at S, 52% at H).

Are you an 0L? You do realize that clerkships are 1-2 year gigs, and the vast majority of clerks are headed back to their summer firms after, yes? Like overwhelming majority. 80+% of HS students summer at large firms, and of them, nearly all return.

There's nothing to suggest it's the vast majority--why would the percentages not be in line with employment outcomes minus clerkships straight out of law school? That is, if 10% clerk, 45% do biglaw, and 45% do PI (oversimplification), and in the employment outcome statistics you skip the 1-2 years clerking, why would the numbers not be ~50% biglaw, ~50% PI (same relative percentages)? I'd even argue that those interested in clerking are, on the whole, less interested in biglaw than the average.

But that's beside the point. YHS give you a better chance to clerk, regardless of where you end up afterwards.

[A. Nony Mouse]

No, I really don't think people interested in clerking are less interested in biglaw than most. For one thing, firms give you a bonus for clerking. Sure, transactional people clerk at lower rates than lit people, but there are plenty of lit people in biglaw. Of all the clerks I know, the vast majority have gone on to work at firms.

[09042014]

But guess what: most people at YHS end up in big law.

Less than half, actually (34% at Y, 45% at S, 52% at H).

Are you an 0L? You do realize that clerkships are 1-2 year gigs, and the vast majority of clerks are headed back to their summer firms after, yes? Like overwhelming majority. 80+% of HS students summer at large firms, and of them, nearly all return.

There's nothing to suggest it's the vast majority--why would the percentages not be in line with employment outcomes minus clerkships straight out of law school? That is, if 10% clerk, 45% do biglaw, and 45% do PI (oversimplification), and in the employment outcome statistics you skip the 1-2 years clerking, why would the numbers not be ~50% biglaw, ~50% PI (same relative percentages)? I'd even argue that those interested in clerking are, on the whole, less interested in biglaw than the average.

But that's beside the point. YHS give you a better chance to clerk, regardless of where you end up afterwards.

At HLS. If you ignore clerks, still only 15% do Gov. or PI. So even if the Clerks went to PI and Gov at the same rate as regular students, the vast majority are going to biglaw after.

The best way to tell is to check what they do during their 2L summer.

Also lol emu http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3#p7649103

[rayiner]

All I've learned from this thread is that I'm happy I'm not going to Northwestern, if people there are like this. There are things in the world other than money, and there are jobs other than biglaw. Just because YOU only care about these things doesn't mean others do.

You said law school is only worth it for the money. Well, then why the hell are you going to law school and not going straight into some finance field? There are some people who go to law school because they care about some cause, or because they like to teach and research, or because they (gasp!) like the material. Maybe you don't. But there are plenty who do. So please, STFU. You sound like you're butthurt you didn't get into Yale. Well, you'd be a fish out of water at Yale anyway, since (mostly) everyone there wants to clerk/go into academia.

If you're going to law school just for money, it is not worth it.

But guess what: most people at YHS end up in big law.

Less than half, actually (34% at Y, 45% at S, 52% at H).

Almost all clerks go to private practice after. E.g. 91% at U of C. Yale's CDO says 70% of all grads have law firms as their first non-clerkship job.